Maybe if we go for 1,000,000 pilot programs we can piecemeal sneak ourselves into some kind of real change.
The plan is to do a limited-scale pilot, then do 10,000 apartments once a smooth process doing the upgrade is in place
I just got an induction cook top and it’s amazing. WAY more efficient than alternatives, better indoor air quality as compared to gas. One problem: can’t cook if the power is out. Good ideas all around.
Some gas stoves require electricity to continue operating due to electric safety sensors that shut the stove gas off if the flame goes out. They too would be useless in a power outage because the valves would not open. So it’s not just electric stoves that would be out of luck.
If you have room to store one, a used camp stove and gas cylinder are fine for basics. No need to buy a fancy new one. Or even a gas bbq grill.
Don’t forget about the electric ventilation being out if theres a power outage. You don’t want to cook with a gas stove indoors with that off.
How often does your power go out that this is a major concern?
For me, enough for it to be a problem.
You’d be looking at another 2-3k but you could get battery that can support that (and other things in an outage)
That starts you down the rabbit hole of okay well what about solar panels to charge it in an extended outage…
Also not practical for so many people.
Really a microwave or single plate induction would be better for outage and cheaper battery.
I’d consider the health benefits a bigger benefit than the energy savings. Less chance of getting asthma and/or cancer is a pretty big boon.
why battery backed???
Prevents data loss in the event of power failure.
It appears the main driver for the replacements are frequent gas service outages. Presumably they didn’t want to just replace that with an equivalent vulnerability to blackouts.
Also, a battery can add to the power of a standard outlet, so these stoves can have some serious output even without a 240V connection.
It’s also a safety upgrade, as the risk of fires is much diminished.
As an added benefit besides the environmental ones - you can’t blow out a wall and collapse a house with careless use of an induction cooker. :)
All it takes is someone not knowing how to handle a grease fire, and you can make one of those on anything called a stove.
That’s true. I’ve watched Fight Club.
There’s an unspoken racial element to the removal of gas stoves.
If you need to cook with a wok for 15 minutes or char some peppers, you’re destroying the environment. But if you need to run an electric oven for an hour to bake a pie or casserole and create 10x the carbon footprint, you’re saving the environment.
And no, woks don’t work as well on induction, unless you have those spherical induction stoves that aren’t available outside of China. And an oven broiler is no where as good for charring peppers.
Edit: Love it when people who don’t even own a wok will try to explain your own ethnic cuisine to you, whitewash the kitchen, and then pretend to be concerned about your health when it’s always been about control.
I’m from Hong Kong, which statistically has the longest lifespan in the world. We use gas stoves just fine. Stop pretending that it’s anything other than the lack of universal healthcare that’s killing you.
This isn’t just about saving the environment, but sure. There’s also the public health element of removing a major source of indoor air pollution that’s detrimental to the residents of these units. These units aren’t equipped with range hoods that can adequately ventilate the space, even if they’re being used every time someone cooks.
I had no problem buying a portable induction wok “burner” outside of China; they were literally $50 USD at our local Costco a few weeks ago and that was including the kinda-cheap-but-more-than-adequate stamped carbon steel wok. I didn’t even go looking for it and it found me. I’ve also had no problems charring peppers, onions, or ginger by just placing a pan over the stove element and sticking them on the pan when it’s hot.
Why do people act like not using a gas powered stove is akin to stripping away some fundamental right?
I grew up in a part of the world where electric stoves are the vast vast majority and have been since the introduction of electricity. We cook just fine. Chill.
Wanna know where this cruel, backwards part of the world is? It’s fucking Tennessee.
Theyre replacing a bunch of low-end gas stoves that couldn’t do the kind of heat that people use for a that kind of wok cooking anyways.
I would be so pissed if my landlord took away my gas stove. Energy efficency? Really? Seems like busy work as if 100 other things wouldn’t be better. You know what’s nice about gas? It works when the power doesn’t, without a battery.
Induction is better for both the global and indoor environment. In some countries landlords aren’t allowed to install gas appliances anymore because of the long term effects on the tenants’ lungs.
Made the switch a year ago and I couldn’t be happier. Induction cooking is really really nice.
This is important for those replacing gas or propane stoves and don’t want to add the cost of running a 240V line that most resistance and induction ovens require.
OK this makes sense. It answers my WTF reaction at the thought of a battery-backed range.
Still doesn’t make much sense, though.
Induction stoves are $1000. 5kwh of batteries are $500, retailing around $2000 in the form of a power station. So, let’s call it $3000 total. The Copper Charlie goes for $6000. That extra $3000 is enough to have a 240v circuit installed by an electrician.
For real? In Europe one can get induction for less than €200. Significantly less. And a “real”, full size one, 4 spots. And adding an oven adds additional €200.
I think you’re comparing the price of a cooktop to a cooktop/oven.
You’re right, I’ve updated my post.
To answer your question, induction stoves are a premium product in the US. Only newer houses are wired for it, and they’re more likely to be configured for separate cooktops and ovens. So there’s not much available on the low end. If you’re on a tight budget, you’d want gas, which is far cheaper to run, and gas stoves start around $300.
For comparison, in Australia, gas and induction are at price parity (a budget 4-hotplate setup costs about $200-300 either way). You can buy a single-plate induction cooker for $50 that plugs into the wall and has a temperature configurable from 60-200 C.
Edit: Stopped markdown converting Centigrate to Copyright symbol
PS: Also, electricity is cheaper than gas in Australia, because we have so much rooftop solar, electricity is soon going to be free during the midday peak.
I also see those batteries going bad and complications in the future with such a complicated system rather than a dedicated 240v circuit.
What makes it seem convoluted? It’s slightly more complex than a standard electric stove, but we have and use countless devices on a daily basis with this technology. Very rarely do they have any issues with the charging/discharge circuit.
Yes, the batteries will eventually need to be replaced, and it could be an issue during Thanksgiving (etc) when a ton of power is needed all at once. But I really think you’re overestimating the usage it will get.
In any event, this is why they’re running it as a pilot. Any real-world issues will come to light before a larger rollout.
What’s so hard about 240v since it takes a thinner wire compared to 110v?
North American 240v is different from the rest of the world. You use single phase, we use split phase, which means our 240v has two hot wires instead of one. To retrofit a 240v circuit in, we need to run a new cable with an additional hot wire from the breaker box to the kitchen, a new set of breakers, and a new socket.
For new construction, nothing.
For existing construction, it requires you to run a new circuit.
Not sure but maybe, thicker insulation?
Has the text changed? I can’t find any reference to 240v
I think this is the new section?
The winning submission came from Copper, a California-based company which designed a battery-equipped induction stove that plugs into a standard 120-volt outlet. That means the units can be used in existing NYCHA kitchens without the need for major electrical upgrades.
Ditto. I wonder if it could be more of a big capacitor, or if it is.
Seems to be LFP pack. Safe and long-lasting.
The battery induction stoves are pretty neat. You can plug them into a normal 120v outlet instead of needing to rewire. Plus they can be battery backups in the event of power outages.
How long can you run them before they run out of juice, though? I’m not sure I’d want to have “range” (pun intended) anxiety making Thanksgiving dinner.
https://copperhome.com/products/charlie
This one, as an example, has a 5 kWh battery. Having seen it in action it’ll run itself for several hours unplugged. Pretty much indefinitely if charging.
Remember, while induction ranges typically have high power ratings (10+ kW), they aren’t actually running the whole time. They use a decent amount of power for the initial heat up, or if youre running all of the burners on high trying to boil several large pots of water, but realistically that’s not how you use a range.
Once the oven is up to temperature, it just kinda oscillates on and off, using comparatively little energy. Induction burners rarely run on full power because if you’ve ever cooked with induction you know you’ll burn…everything… on high - they can really dump heat into a pan.
Actively cooking a big dinner with multiple burners, you may average about 2 kW. With 1 kW coming in from the wall, that gives you about 5 hours of sustained peak cook time.
You know, I’m not sure.
But “range” anxiety gave me a giggle so thanks for that.
How long can you run them before they run out of juice, though?
They run by either an electrical outlet or by battery. Another article stated the battery backup for its induction oven was one hour. Hardly worth being a feature.
One hour of being able to cook in the midst of a 12+ hour blackout can make a world of difference to hungry people.
Currently they have gas stoves that can cook for 12+ hours of a 12+ hour blackout…
I wouldn’t assume the pumps moving that gas would keep working for an extended outage. If an outage lasts that long, it’s usually over a big area.
Most of the natural gas distribution network is natural gas powered, and what electric equipment exists generally has backup electrical generation equipment. It’s designed to operate independently of the electric grid, and is far more reliable.
In the last 15 years, my electricity has been out for 10+ DAYS three different times. Gas doesn’t stop.
In fact, 2 out of 3 homes in the neighborhood have Kohler style natural gas whole house generators.
There’s plenty of reasons to hate gas, but that ain’t one.
Surely someone’s got an example of natural gas service failing during an electric outage?
They should’ve run the electricity wires next to the gas wires, i.e. buried.
however capacity and wear they have? Battery science is pretty curved.
Just a shame how expensive they are. Copper stoves (the ones that won the contract in the article) start at $5,999. They’re a small start-up without economy of scale on their side, but that still just seems wildly overpriced for an induction stove with a lithium battery stuck inside.
To put that price in perspective, an electric convection toaster oven that can handle most oven needs can be had for $150 to $250, and a high quality countertop induction cooktop can be had for $116 (or less used), both of which run on standard 120v outlets.
Standard 240v induction ovens start at around $850.
Also some newer ones have temp sensors so you can keep a thing at the exact temp you need.
I saw one with magnetic removable knobs to make cleaning easier.
Also the outlet bits make installs drop-in for anyone, no electrician needed.
Also some newer ones have temp sensors so you can keep a thing at the exact temp you need.
I swear by induction cooking (for both soapmaking and food) for this reason - precise temperature control, even low temperatures that aren’t even possible to get on a gas stove.
- Setting the heater to exactly 40C means you can melt chocolate reliably, without the hassle of a bain marie
- At 60C you can combine cetostearyl alcohol and vegetable oil for moisturizer without boiling off your glycerine
- At 80C you can cook soap to trace without overcooking it and making it lumpy
- At 100C you can evaporate moisture and reduce a sauce with minimal effect on other ingredients
- At 100-160C you can cook a sugar syrup to a precisely desired level of concentration (as the boiling point goes up as the concentration increases) for making different types of candy
Don’t you need special pots and pans for induction stoves? Would a cast iron skillet work on one of those? Or a standard non stick pan?
Cast iron would work, though you shouldn’t blast the heat on it immediately because of how brittle they are and how unevenly they heat. You can find plenty of pictures online of people just chucking a room temp cast iron on at max heat and splitting them right down the middle. They get plenty hot when preheated at around the medium setting on most ranges, and if you need more you can blast it after it’s warmed up in like 2-3 minutes.
So, you should start my setting the stove to low and gradually heat it up?
If you want to completely mitigate the risk, then yeah it’s ideal to start on low and progressively ratchet the heat up. Personally, I’ve just left it at medium and then cranked it up two notches on the dial after a few minutes. I’ve really never used the maximum heat for anything other than boiling water on my range, since just over medium is more than hot enough for a lovely sear. If the coil is significantly smaller than the bottom of the pan, I’d be much more careful and start on low no matter what pan I’m using just to reduce the risk of warping.
So will they be offering compatible cookware is the other question. Otherwise it is just an added expense.
Would a cast iron skillet work on one of those?
Definitely, you just need pans with a ferromagnetic bottom, so cast iron works very well.
The outer material doesn’t matter - only the base. Many cheap induction-compatible pans are made mostly of aluminum with a non-stick coating, but containing a layer of ferromagnetic material in the base that will heat up on an induction stove.
Yes, you can test with a magnet. If it doesn’t react, it won’t work. Aluminium for instance doesn’t work.
I don’t know why you were down voted and the user below gave misinformation. I bought a non stick pan before without noticing it wouldn’t work with my induction. Now I bring a magnet when choosing a pan.
Aluminium for instance doesn’t work.
A lot of cheap pans I’ve seen at (AU) Kmart, Big W, Ikea etc are aluminum with a teflon-esque coating, but with a carbon-steel circle attached to the bottom that makes it induction compatible.
It was aldi and not too cheap. But it was a while ago when I induction wasn’t common.
Removed by mod
I’ve removed this post due to misinformation. Copper and aluminum pots on an induction stove arent forbidden; they just don’t get hot on an induction stove.
Thanks for correcting.
There seems to be contradictory information on the subject.
Aluminum foil is proven to melt on induction cookers (see attached photo). But that’s because foil is thin.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Foil_on_induction_cooktop.jpg
A photo I suggest taking a look at: induction heater burning aluminum foil. Taken from the publication “Practical Course on School Experiments for Future Physics teachers”.
…as for thick aluminum cookware, or copper cookware, I was not implying that they would overheat themselves, I was implying that the induction cooker would overheat its coil attempting to work with them, because they conduct current better than the coil. But perhaps that’s prevented by protection circuits or a process I haven’t taken into account. I can’t test since I don’t have an induction cooker at home.
EM-fields induce current in copper and aluminum perfectly fine, no ferromagnetism is needed. You can build a coreless transformer for example, ordinary tranformers simply benefit from having a core (the core is separated into thin layers to reduce heating). Copper and aluminum simply conduct current very well, so appreciable heat does not appear at everyday levels of field strength and current. Steel and cast iron, having considerable resistance, heat up in a similar field, conducting similar amounts of current. There’s a potential gap in my understanding of the process, however - perhaps I’m failing to take into account the frequency of a cooking field in an induction cooker. The frequency determines whether current wants to travel in the depth of the conductor or on the surface of the conductor.
Simple experiments that I can recommend:
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take a circuar magnet and let it drop along a copper pipe -> you will observe that it drops slowly, braking itself by inducing current in copper
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spin a rotor with magnets next to a plate of copper -> you will observe mechanical resistance to spinning, because it induces current in copper
I can also recommend an interesting Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
Quoting from the article (emphasis mine):
For example, a nearby conductive surface will exert a drag force on a moving magnet that opposes its motion, due to eddy currents induced in the surface by the moving magnetic field. This effect is employed in eddy current brakes which are used to stop rotating power tools quickly when they are turned off. The current flowing through the resistance of the conductor also dissipates energy as heat in the material. Thus eddy currents are a cause of energy loss in alternating current (AC) inductors, transformers, electric motors and generators, and other AC machinery, requiring special construction such as laminated magnetic cores or ferrite cores to minimize them. Eddy currents are also used to heat objects in induction heating furnaces and equipment, and to detect cracks and flaws in metal parts using eddy-current testing instruments.
I also recommend this source and will quote them below:
Induction heating utilizes electromagnetic fields to heat conductive materials without any direct contact. Aluminum, although non-magnetic, heats effectively because of its high electrical conductivity. However, it produces weaker eddy currents in comparison to ferrous metals.
This stuff would matter if induction stoves just had a raw component and no cooling or temperatue sensor or pot presence sensor. They’re an engineered product which doesn’t fail in the same way that the raw components do without any of that.
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Yeah of course those kind of pans work fine. You don’t need anything special for induction. It’s standard for a lot of the country.
Old pots which don’t have enough iron or nickel in them for a magnet to stick to the bottom won’t get hot on an induction stove.
Cast iron works fine, but that cheap aluminum pot you bought as a student 20 years ago won’t work.
Those batteries can be used to provide backup power when the grid goes down.
https://electrek.co/2024/02/29/induction-ovens-with-big-batteries-solve-lots-of-problems/
I did not know this exists and I love the idea. However, the author clearly never has used an induction stove: “Because of this, they are more efficient than typical electric resistance stoves and also safer because the surface of the oven doesn’t get very hot.”
I actually thought both of those points were true.
I have induction and this is certainly true. The surface only gets heated by the pot on top. So only after a long time does it get very hot and never even close to a regular electric stove.
Okay, go ahead and touch it, if it does not get “very hot”.
That’s literally one of the advantages of induction over resistive. Resistive heat an element, that heats the pot. Inductive use a magnetic field to induce a current in the pot. That electric current then heats the pot directly.
The only heat in the stovetop is either bleed back from the pot, or resistive losses, which are quite low.
Again, go ahead and touch the surface after cooking.
Nope. Had induction. The ceramic gets just as hot, because you heat up the metal on top and the metal is touching the ceramic, thus it gets hot. Enough to cause severe burns.
Sounds like you didn’t have induction but had a normal flat top stove with electric burners.
Your mom says otherwise.
The video of the stove setup seems great till they get to the part that you have to connect your stove to WiFi and pair it with their phone app. This means I’m never buying the Charlie stove.
If it was just a standard Matter device, I’d be fine with it. But fuck one off apps for smart devices. They are always shitty, and always get neglected or abandoned.
Good on them. I’ve only ever seen gas ranges in 100+ year old apartment buildings.
They’re coming for our gassssss
