Basically, the company had to pay for its own buyout when private equity firms KKL, Vornado, and Bain bought the company for $6.6 billion, mostly with loans.
Because the company then had to pay off those extreme loans, they were forced to sell off their assets and property, which they leased back from the very private equity firms that now owned them.
The same thing happened more recently with Red Lobster and JoAnn Fabrics.
I watch the YouTube channel “Company Man” that does a bunch of interesting business stories. 95% of the “Decline of (brand)” or “Rise and Fall of (brand)” videos are because of leveraged buyouts.
A group of idiots borrow billions of dollars, throw the unrecoverable debt onto the books, slowly killing the company, and then it’s dead.
Who loans this money? How does that work? I understand the rest of it about being a bastard who collects millions in salary and bonuses while driving a company into the ground. I just don’t understand where the money comes from, or why.
It may be U.S. plutocrat strategy to weaken political enemies by killing their companies.
Consider Microsoft destroying Nokia and their Linux phones to benefit fellow American companies Apple and Google.
Consider the Destruction of OkCupid as an attack against its liberal-skewed user base.
The best book I’ve read about private equity is called Songs of Profit, Songs of Loss by Daniel Souleles. It’s an ethnography of private equity.
Private equity is the logical extreme of the idea of shareholder value. Companies are bought, stripped for parts, and mined for resources. The money comes from wealthy people and institutional investors like university endowments, pension funds, etc, and some years it is a very high-return investment. Other years, not so much, see the relationship by the University of California and Blackstone as an example in recent years.
Toy R Us is still a thing in Canada, you can just go there and get your kid legos like its 2002
TIL: stock buybacks were considered insider trading before Reagan made them legal
The entire investor community is filled with shitbags.
Is there anything that Reagan hasn’t fucked?
Whatever he didn’t got fucked by Clinton.
“Bill! Get you dick out of the jelly beans!”
He did not. Have. Sexual relations. With that. Policy.
Your mom.
Well he better get to work then
Did you know companies can take out loans to buy their own stock to raise the value.
Pretty much nothing in “the economy” works like it does in theory. It’s always way more complex so the people with the most power and money can squeeze more exploitation out of it. I really like how this guy explains it
https://www.facebook.com/reel/976701137942045
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1LcJjd6Wosw
He’s got a whole series on Private Equity
Sometimes teenagers ask me about how the stock market works.
I love explaining shorts, because the reaction is always “how does that even make sense?”
The short answer (ba dum, tisssss) is that some forms of mutual funds buy a little bit of every stock rather than picking and choosing. Then, for reasons never really made clear, they let other investors borrow those stocks as long as they return them later.
I think that’s the natural outcome. that’s the emergent behaviour of capitalism.
those with more money have more power and more influence to make the system better for those with money and power.
the rest, like almost all “economics” its just BS to hide that simple fact.
This is like me taking out a loan to buy a car and then expecting the car to make the payment.
And since all the debt is on the company and not the people/organization who bought the company, they don’t suffer any of the repercussions of defaulting on the loans. Why this isn’t illegal is beyond me.
This is like me taking out a loan to buy a car and then expecting the car to make the payment.
It’s even worse than that. Imagine you bought a car from a dealership and were making monthly payments on it. I take a loan to buy your debt from the car dealership, sell your car to pay my loan off, and then expect you to continue making your monthly car payments to me. You file bankruptcy to get out from under the debt, but by then I’ve pocketed months or years of your car payments and come out with a tidy profit.
And then I do it to hundreds of other people, over and over again, as long as other rich people are willing to loan me money. Which of course they are, because running companies into bankruptcy is incredibly profitable.
Something something road to serfdom.
Well fuck … that’s even more depressing.
It was illegal, then Reagan changed that.
Because of course it was Reagan.
Well, in theory it’s the responsibility of the banks to not make bad loans. If private equity passes on their debt to the company they bought, and then that company goes bankrupt and the private equity walks away free, that’s still the bank’s problem and they’re gonna lose a lot of money. Of course the problem is banks have a pretty bad track record about being disciplined with their loans.
Elementary my dear billwashere, in one word: money.
People don’t notice the leeches, so noone cries out. This enables said private equity leeches to
bribe politiciansmake considerable donations to various political action committees. And believe it or not, politicians like money.Well, you wouldn’t want those politicians to be poor?
Oh deary me, no, poor politicians would be susceptible to bribes
What will really shift your thinking is finding out that they have done this to almost all the hospitals in the United States, which is part of the reason healthcare costs have skyrocketed.
Hospitals need more to pay their leases, health insurers need to pay more to feed the hospitals machine, premiums go way up/more services restricted/more cost share (copay etc)
If you think it’s shitty that consumers can’t own anything anymore, they stole your wellbeing services while you were bitching about how little is still on Netflix these days
This is enough reasoning to say that capitalism is the single greatest enemy of mankind. The search for endless profit will kill everyone.
Nono its the best system. All others have failed. You cant have the American dream without capitalism.
/LIES FROM FASCISTS
The culture of consumption is the greatest threat to humanity.
Capitalism, and even communism, are just means to that end.
Careful now, they’re about to classify criticism of capitalism terrorism.
Yeah?
Isn’t that the entire thing that private equity firms do? Buy up companies, sell all their assets to the private equity firm, then have them lease it all back for insane amount until it’s bankrupt.
Makes a whole lot of short term profits, destroys the company and it’s employees. No fucks given
Private equity firms are a cancer (amongst many cancers) on humanity
Looks like EA is next on the chopping block.
Glad I stopped caring about the game industry.
Now it’s just fun to laugh and point the finger at all the morons/losers getting taken advantage of for being stupid.
They killed Karstadt this way, V&D, and I bet a bunch of other department stores too.
It wasn’t always this bad. It started out as a way to improve local businesses. The problem is the internet and all the hype
Ummm private equity firms have been evilly destroying companies since the early eighties at least.
This was back in the 70’s
I hate to tell you this but private equity has been a problem long before the Internet went mainstream. I think venture capital firms we’re a product of a post-WWII world trying to capture as much wealth as possible during reconstruction. I’d have to check some sources to be sure of that and I’m really not motivated enough to do it.
For a while they brought down prices and improved service
It only was like that for a short time though
Don’t see how the internet plays a role in firms purchasing stuff then gutting them for profit.
Local business owners are better at their jobs since they have a tremendous amount of resources at their disposal
The fact that they can buy a company by going into debt and immediately transfer the debt to the company is fucking insane. Maybe we need to figure out how we as individuals can do that and just fucking crash the lending industry entirely? Can I make my house buy itself for me and then “whoopsie, the house can’t pay the bills, guess it will file for bankruptcy and hand me a big ol’ stack of cash”.
Can I make my house buy itself for me and then “whoopsie, the house can’t pay the bills, guess it will file for bankruptcy and hand me a big ol’ stack of cash”.
2008 called…
That’s how landlords work.
Take loan, buy houses, house has to pay back loan via rent, rent is paid for by renter.
Landlord gets house for free, everything paid by renter.
In this scenartio, the Landlord also owns the maintenance company, so the renter pays the wages of the maintenance advisor and maintenance costs.
As usual, renting is one of the biggest scams society has fallen for.
We only accept it as normal because so many people around us are doing it.
And the same thing happens to banks for people with mortgages.
the same happens to most mortgages, namely income goes to the lender and you get a house.
But, you get the equity, and you own the house when (if) you pay off the loan. Renters get nothing.
Renters get a roof over their head (and they should be grateful for that). /s
They will never, ever give us equal rules willingly. The only way that’s going to happen is if we build a new financial system, immune to their Pinkertons and police.
You will not build a new financial system without structures of power. The best we can do is to understand the structures of power and how to combat them.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
— Buckminster Fuller
Structures of power… You mean “guillotines”?
I mean things like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
I mean things like this.
I’m not going to say exactly what it would take, but it rhymes with Bolotov Cocktail
I couldn’t possible know what you mean, but that sounds delicious.
I use fireball in mine. So the revolution will smell like cinnamon.
Fireball and gin. Tastes like Christmas.
Justice often is.
They told US TARGET killed Geoffrery!!!
Weird. I heard Tyrion did it, but he did claim he was innocent!
Target ended up getting the rights to the brand didn’t they?
What happened to Babies 'R Us? The one near me where we registered for our oldest got turned into a trampoline park. We took him there for his 9th birthday a couple weeks ago.
The actions taken by private equity companies seem very similar to those taken by organized crime syndicates when THEY take over a business
Odd, don’t you think?
Like in Goodfellas, cannibalizing their own community. Embezzle and steal everything you can, then torch the place for the insurance.
But in Goodfellas, the owner of the restaurant approaches the mafia and asks Paulie to “be a partner”, so he can get Tommy to stop terrorizing the place AND running up tabs he has no intention of paying.
Imagine some short mafia type with a Napoleon complex walking around the Toys R Us aisles, knocking merchandise off the shelves while harassing kids and their mothers.
I betcha the equity firms approach with a silk tongue and Wall St technobabble jabberwocky. I know those CEO business types, the read their CEO magazines chock full of pseudoscience articles like, for example, determining a personality type via their handwriting style, the hooks and curves of their calligraphy. Corporate astrology, just as gullible to fancy jargon as the proverbial Man Down The Street.
Nah. They have deluded themselves with ideas of “rescuing” the company. But they protect themselves financially first. Then they don’t have the awareness to show that a business could have just made 1-2% a year forever instead of selling off assets for a chance at 4Xing their investment. They think its how life works. Take the big risk and never consider the costs as long as your ass is covered.
Capitalism is organized crime
Time to kill private equity……with crippling regulation and accountability of course
Nah just make the rich people pay their taxes. Then they won’t have money for stupid shit like this
One of the reasons they have so much money is the financial trickery that private equity employs
Not when you live in a country where private equity basically owns the government.
below is a reply to a comment I made below, pasting here as I find it crazy how this went down and is allowed.
For those curious I did a little digging. I’m on mobile so won’t be going in and out to add company names etc.
Basically, the private equity firms got together and said let’s buy Toy R Us for $6.6B but we only want to use say 300M of our own money and get a loan for the rest.
Then they bought Toys R Us but made them sell all assets to equity firms which then leased them back to Toys R Us so they could pay back the loans. This means Toys R Us are paying hundreds of million a year to cover loans and can’t put that money into making a better business.
The private equity firms also made Toys R Us issue dividends in the hundreds of millions so private equity can make money.
In the end private equity walked away with over $1B in profit whilst Toys R Us declared bankruptcy with $5B still left to pay.
What a fucking insane system. Like how many people lost their jobs so these ghouls could make some extra cash off its downfall.
And people think I’m crazy for making my life harder by not shopping at places like Amazon or being a pirate and not giving money to Netflix etc.
I feel I am living in crazy land. Like the Uk has all our pensions and shit tied to the damn stock market, ensuring we can never really leave this system.
And people think I’m crazy for making my life harder by not shopping at places like Amazon or being a pirate and not giving money to Netflix etc.
You’re not crazy; you’re smart.
The average person just doesn’t want to accept how stupid they are.
In a sane world that would be life in prison illegal.
Sadly we live in crazy town.
Wait until you hear about using shorts to drive a company out of business or stock buy backs.
Sweet jesus. How is this not some kind of hyper mega ultra fraud?
Because bankers buy politicians and if people complain they buy news coverage to call the naysayers socialists
I have no idea and it seems insane to me.
I was looking for the same thing in my country, UK, thinking we can’t be as bad as America, but nope many of the companies that have died during my life have been due to LBOs. The world is insane and I don’t see how we can change it.
In the UK I learnt that Asda one of our largest supermarkets is in a similar place due to two brothers doing an LBO to buy it. Now it’s saddled with debt meaning it won’t be able to innovate like Tesco or Sainsbury’s and thus will likely just bleed customers. Makes me wonder why these two brothers with more money than God would want to carry on, like I literally can’t comprehend wanting more than you need. Perhaps I have different motivations as I see time as my most precious asset and will earn less money than I could just for the easier life of being able to chill more and do the things I like.
the primary shareholders of a company can usually do whatever they please (as they should in the case of some proprietorship) as such can sell whatever assets for whatever price.
I’m kind of financially illiterate
what part of the firm’s actions were fraudulent? if they make an offer and toys r us accepts, there’s nothing predatory going on is there?
It’s not hard to use financial trickery to temporarily tank a stock price making it easier to buy up a company. When redditors went after gamestop shortsellers, the shortsellers used tricks to dip the stockprice just low enough just temporarily enough to trigger margin calls and crush the redditors.
Many of these are hostile buyouts, which means they use their money to buy a majority of shares in the company and then overthrow the board. I don’t know if the Toys R Us sale was one of those though.
And they’re not saying it is fraudulent. Just that it should be fraudulent.
It wasn’t fraud but it was poor business decisions based on their hope for massive growth instead of seeing success as steady profitability. They sold off assets (real estate) and then signed up to lease the property back from the new real estate owners. This shifted assets to liabilities. They idea would be to use cash to grow the business. They took too much cash as distributions to investors instead of making sound long term business decisions that would keep ToysRUs operating for the long term.
thank you for the explanation
What I don’t understand about the whole thing is who ends up holding the bag of all that debt?
Like banks that lend them billions must be intelligent enough to know how private equity takeovers like this work. So if they lend them money, they surely would want to get that off their books asap. But who do they sell it to? I can’t imagine there is any type of reinsurance for this, since insurance providers should know even better.
I imagine some of the debt is to employees and small contractors, but can that really account for such a massive sum?
Alot of debt gets bundled into bonds or other investment vehicles and sold. So small retail investors, retirement funds, etc end up holding the bag. Sometimes the banks lose, but they can take tax write offs and if the loses are too great, they can often get bailed out by the government.
So the Equity Holders (The Private Equity firms) were largely shielded from risk as they had taken out billions in dividends and they had a small equity state relative to the debt meaning their downside was limited.
The creditors (large banks) were left holding the bag, but they’d had years of interest payments so they wrote off the rest and likely still made some profit.
Employees, suppliers, and landlords. Employees lose their jobs, suppliers get pennies on the dollar for what they’re owed and landlords might have got some money but still not all.
So in short it was the banks, but don’t forget they had years of interest payments and after all they took the risk.
Well, I mean, banks kind of ‘invent’ the money which they hand out as loans…so what do they care, really?
When the pile of bad loans gets to big, they sell those bundled as loot boxes to other banks. When that pile starts stinking too much, they are too big to fail and get bailed out. That’s the circle of life 🪇🎶
Welcome to the house of cards that is globalisation and capitalism.
landlords might have got some money but still not all.
This is assuming that the landlords aren’t also the private equity companies as well. So far as I can tell in long term care/assisted living/skilled nursing facilities, the same parent company owns everything, but the food branch is separate from the nursing branch, is separate from the physical rehabilitation branch, is separate from the admin services, and since they are all separate from the building branch, they are all operating “at a loss since” they have employees to pay. All the money goes to the building branches and everyone else gets told to do more with less.
The banks can also technically short the stock as well once the buyout was public, knowing how shit the deal was they can make money on the downside at the expense of all the pensions, 401ks etc that had initially bought the stock. There also isnt a limit that prevents shorting the stock more than shares are in existence. Hence why the gamestop situation was close to breaking the whole stock market a few years back when they started turning everything around for the companies bottom line. With the stock now able to make it think a bout a billion more shares over time the out for the short side has been sort of given without completely nuking the market. But as when the shares are diluted is up to the board it allows gamestop to take advantage of the short side to create more cash on hand for themselves threw timing their market offerings to coincide with when swaps that are housing those shorts come due. In the toys r us case the executives and board were happy to take their golden parachute from the buyout and let ordinary people’s pensions and 401ks carry the bag for them in the form of the stock going to zero and eventually being delisted from the market.
Not sure this applies here as it was a private buyout meaning that there would be no stock to short.
They could have shorted it before the buyout to get a better deal, but the banks didn’t buy it the just lent the money.
Also shorting before could be seen as insider trading, right? Not that something being illegal means it wouldn’t happen, but feels like that would be hard to hide.
So we make interest illegal and the whole scam falls apart, got it.
and if you do that most of the economy fails because no one wants a bond that does nothing
The current economy sucks anyway. Houses as investments, line-go-up disposable consumerism, rent-seeking, it’s all fucked if you aren’t born on top.
seems fine for anyone that already has a house, like everyone should (for hundreds of years)
Sadly the only way is a lot more Luigi’s. If more CEO’s start getting wigged off maybe they’ll lobby for change.
Just sad that most people have it just good enough to not want to risk prison forever to murder someone, although if I could get away with it I’d have no issue in pulling the trigger on these ghouls.
Companies are valued by earnings-per-share, independent of the assets. So if the P/E ratio is too low the company costs less than its assets and it pays off to sell the parts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price–earnings_ratio
In this case I heard a rumor that Amazon did it to dominate the toy market, so losses could have been acceptable.
I heard a rumor that Amazon did it to dominate the toy market
I certainly would not put it past them.
Look up Cellar boxing, you’ll see all the companies that were driven out of business because of this strategy
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Truer now than when Henry Ford said it like a hundred years go.
The SEC exists to shelter Self Regulating Organizations from any threats of democratic governance or law enforcement. Oh ya and to keep up the legalese charade that there literally is no such thing as counterfeit stock (because the Secret Service has purview over counterfeiting for some strange reason)
Fuck the stock market 🖕
The Secret Service has purview over counterfeiting because that’s what it was founded for. More confusing is why they became the presidential protection service from there.
IIRC it was Mitt Romneys firm that did it to (technically after he left leadership, if i recall)
Impossible! Mitt Romney is one of the good conservatives!
/s because tens of millions of liberals actually believe that it’s true.
He is one of the ones who actually wants a functioning government.
Just saw this after making my comment. I believe it was.
Bain Capital
Not technically, it was years after he left Bain.
Wasn’t it Bain Capital (Mitt Romney’s old place of work), or am I misremembering?
Yes, that was one of them.
From OP
Basically, the company had to pay for its own buyout when private equity firms KKL, Vornado, and Bain bought the company for $6.6 billion, mostly with loans.
Ah, I skimmed it and must have skipped over that
It’s cool. My intention wasn’t to call you out.
Its best to plan to not have a retirement fund. Plenty of communities just take care of each other instead.
I’m not sure what you mean. We have a state pension tied to the stock market.
I also have a private pension too. I don’t see how not planning for retirement can be beneficial?
The UK state pension is largely a Ponzi scheme, no? Those paying tax now fund those receiving pensions now with some promise that they’ll get returns in the future. The only difference is it’s backed by the currency issuer and they’re pretty up front about it.
I don’t know that I would call it a Ponzi scheme, although I could argue for it based on current trends.
Basically, the everybody pays in to the state pension with the understanding that it pays for retired people. So yes people paying in now are covering those that have retired.
The thing is now though is that birth rates are not keeping up with retirements, understandably as why would you have a child in this shit hole, so that means each year it’s harder and harder to pay for the pensioners.
The above is incredibly funny when you look at this silly anti immigration rhetoric, we need more immigration to sustain old people not less. These fools will be shocked when they ban immigration and retire and the state is like yeah we got nothing.
What’s worse is it isn’t means tested which I would support but many older people don’t as they see it as they paid in expecting it back where I see it as paying in to support those that need it.
So I have two bosses one is amazing and very progressive and has never done wrong by their 6 employees. The other is not so much progressive and is soon to retire. He is selling his house for £500k, has lots in savings already and is taking his state pension because, and I quote “ I paid in so it’s mine”, now I can’t fathom this behaviour as I don’t want more than I need and would happily not take money if I can support myself.
Alas, these are the people that vote so we are fucked.
A victim of the good ol leveraged buyout which should be fucking illegal right alongside stock buybacks.
DOGE used this same model on the US government.
Capitalism is not rational
