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- cross-posted to:
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AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off.
How about you make it something people have to turn on, and make it useful enough that they will enable it?
Or, better yet, step down as CEO. Pick someone who is in touch with what the project’s dedicated userbase actually wants.
a userbase that is largely shrinking?
Most of the “abandon Firefox” rhetoric I’ve seen is due to their sudden focus on cramming in AI while simultaneously ignoring or half-assing long wanted features (e.g PWA support).
And to think that shoving in AI will fix any pre-existing userbase shrinkage is like thinking having a baby will save one’s failing marriage.
it’s been shrinking for well over 10 years, nothing to do with ai
Last data I saw showed user base pretty flat for the past 5 years.
Gee, our userbase is shrinking. What should we do? learn what the users want and cater to their needs? No, definitely what we must do is double down and force more unpopular features. That will surely bring back the users that left because of our previous decisions.
/s
Does that include those who have switched to a Firefox fork like Librewolf?
Those who use Firefox are more likely to be tech savvy. They’re therefore more likely to be comfortable switching to a Firefox fork as well.
Firefox keeps getting worse, why would those with the know how stick with it when they can use a fork which is better?
Right, opt-in not opt-out.
Or add it to the list of onboarding steps at the very beginning. Otherwise, it’s either on by default or off by default, and our (or Mozilla’s) definition of “easy” is entirely open to interpretation.
Headline is misleading. That is one sentence from a list of three points.
- First: Every product we build must give people agency in how it works. Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
- Second: our business model must align with trust. We will grow through transparent monetization that people recognize and value.
- Third: Firefox will grow from a browser into a broader ecosystem of trusted software. Firefox will remain our anchor. It will evolve into a modern AI browser and support a portfolio of new and trusted software additions.
I think the more important statement, and one that I agree with, is in the first point.
AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
If this is the goal then I agree. Mush as AI annoys me, I don’t care if they build AI features into the browser. There are enough people that do want AI features for it makes sense to do so. But it needs to be optional. I don’t want to have to keep going into about:config to disable AI features that should have been opt-in in the first place.
No.
AI is something that the user can easily turn on.
If somebody is forced to turn it off before they can use their browser, it’s not actually optional.
The best choice is to let the user know that such a feature is available first, ask if they want it on, and tell them how to turn it on if they say no. The problem with having things off by default is that most people don’t look around the options, they go with what they’re given. This isn’t even about AI, but features in general.
Myself on both Firefox and DuckDuckGo I saw the AI selection prominently displayed and I disabled it. Be transparent, but that includes letting your users know things are there.
I hate starting an app and being forced to choose between things that I have no idea what they are or whether I would want them right when it starts. Just leave it off and let me turn it on when I want to, thanks.
This word “optional”, I do not think it means what you think it means.
If something is enabled prior to receiving user consent, it’s not truly optional.
This got upvoted. A comment that literally doesn’t understand the definition of the word “optional”. Man, do better Lemmings.
No, fuck that. I am sick and tired of having shit pushed at me and then it being made my responsibility to be eternally hypervigilent to avoid it. It’s abusive and fucking shame on you for defending it!
Yes, the only way to talk about something you don’t like is to bend the actual meaning of words to make it sound worse.
…or, we can just respect what words mean. Big ask, I know.
I have turned off every AI feature I can in Firefox and most any other app. I’m not DeFeNdInG jack shit.
What if, instead of having to go to the effort of turning it all off, it’s already off though?
Consent in any other scenario doesn’t have yes as the default option, why tolerate it in the tech world? (Autocorrect changed tech to greedy, that’s perhaps more accurate)
That’s a different conversation. I’m trying to call someone on lying. “Optional” has a very simple meaning.
Optional has a very simple meaning if you ignore the context of the conversion.
Consider the question “Would you like to be punched in the face or not?” You have the option to choose either, but before you answer I’ll start punching you in the face anyway. Do you see how consent is a requirement of optional in that context?
The same applies for many options in life, the default is almost always “no”. Firefox should make this opt-in, not opt-out for the same reason.
If you’re still not convinced by the argument of consent (which, ooft, red flag if you’re not) then also consider the uproar in both this thread and around the internet/tech world because of this decision by Mozilla. All they have to do is change it from opt-out to opt-in and all this outrage disappears. But they haven’t. Why?
If something is enabled prior to receiving user consent, it’s not truly optional.
TBF if our society and data harvesting practices have taught us anything, it’s that the majority of users do not have the willingness or the basic understandings needed to opt out of the default settings. The amount of “install it and forget it” users is astounding.
That’s definitely true. I was just criticizing flagrantly redefining a word.
Lemmy has such a hard-on for hating AI that it ignores what I consider to be basic facts. This, combined with the fact that Lemmy leans technical, means being out of touch is common. Seeing suggestions in this thread that the AI features should be opt in is absurd because no-one will use them because 90% of people don’t change settings.
The hate for Mozilla also seems short sighted. Mozilla has to follow the group to try to gain marketshare or at least keep what it has. Firefox’s marketshare is dwindling and if it gets low enough it will die, which would be bad for everyone
choices like this should always be opt in, not opt out
I generally agree, but if there’s a switch at install time, I don’t really care what the default value is.
So for those that don’t care, what’s the problem with off being the default?
Those that do care would prefer it, those that don’t care don’t care.
I don’t think there is a problem, from the user standpoint.
The possibility of choice is a relief. But if one has a lot of storage bloat for some “features” one doesn’t use, that’s annoying.
Personally, I find all this talk of “choice” from Mozilla to be a red herring. What exactly does it mean?
When Mozilla introduced telemetry, they had to give us a reason. They had to promise it was good because it would help them develop their browser. But with talk of “choice,” Mozilla simply implies AI is good without explaining how.
That’s a good point.
Sheesh. Out of the 20 comments in this thread this is the only one that actually addressed the contents of the article, the rest of them were all talking about what other browser they were using or going to be using now or just vaguely griping about how much they hate AI.
Are there any other Firefox communities that are actually about Firefox?
I’ve used Firefox for a long ass time but let’s be honest here… a LOT of recent history has been trying to figure out how to turn off whatever new feature they’ve been putting energy into. Their community sees them as a tool and they see themselves as an ecosystem. That disconnect is a problem.
Honestly, sometimes it feels like folks are more obsessed about AI than Big Tech CEOs are. With native vertical tabs, tab groups, and the new profiles, there are more new things in Firefox I’ve been excited about than in the years before, but everybody’s only talking about AI.
Why not talk about that stuff instead of AI? That’s on the new CEO, not the community.
I’m happy to criticise him for that too, but that doesn’t mean that folks don’t drag AI into every slightly related or even completely unrelated threads too.
I wasn’t aware that he was a moderator here, deciding what threads people create or comment on.
With native vertical tabs, tab groups, and the new profiles, there are more new things in Firefox I’ve been excited about than in the years before
This reads like marketing, but also other browsers have this stuff anyway? It’s not a selling point anymore.
It’s just a list of recent additions I’m excited about. Of course they come on top of a browser I was already consciously using, so they’re just there to sweeten the deal, not as unique selling points by themselves.
It’s weird that they want firefox to grow into an ecosystem. They only recently kicked Thunderbird out of the ecosystem.
Third: Firefox will grow from a browser into a broader ecosystem of trusted software. Firefox will remain our anchor. It will evolve into a modern AI browser and support a portfolio of new and trusted software additions.
Oh, geez.
My same reaction. Sometimes you just need to do one thing well, particularly when they thing you’re doing is this very general use multipurpose interfacing tool.
although:
First: Every product we build must give people agency in how it works. Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
I have no issue with the option being available, i have an issue when i do not get an option at all.
Ignore all the AI stuff. I do not want my web browser to ever “evolve” into “more than a web browser”. I want it to be a web browser. I do not want an “ecosystem” of related products. I want a web browser.
I agree that would be ideal, but if you look at how Firefox lost popularity over the last decade, it’s obvious that “just a browser” doesn’t seem to cut it anymore in todays integrated IT landscape if you want a relevant marketshare, making sure you don’t just get ignored when sweeping changes are made by the likes of Google and co.
I’d say let them cook, he seems at least to know that respecting user choice and clear communication is important to make sure people don’t lose trust in your brand, something that the previous leadership didn’t demonstrate tbh. The browser landscape is depressing enough, i don’t think it can get much worse.
I’ll stick with “just a browser”, specifically one derived directly from Firefox (FF being free software is the only good thing about FF that Mozilla won’t revoke or change). Mozilla lost my custom and I’m not responsible for cheerleading for them.
Check out the reply to this from the lead of the Waterfox project. Would I rather use a browser by the guy promising to turn my browser into an “ecosystem” of tools, or the one saying:
“Waterfox will not include LLMs. Full stop.”
“The browser’s job is to serve you, not to think for you. That core Waterfox principle hasn’t changed, and it won’t.”
“If AI browsers dominate and then falter, if users discover they want something simpler and more trustworthy, Waterfox will still be here, marching patiently along. We’ve been here before. When Firefox abandoned XUL extensions, Waterfox Classic preserved them. When Mozilla started adding telemetry and Pocket and sponsored content, Waterfox stripped it out. I like to think that where there is want for a browser that simply respects you, Waterfox has delivered.”
“Waterfox exists because some users want a browser that simply works well at being a browser. The UI is mature - arguably, it has been a solved for problem for years. The customisation features are available and apparent. The focus is on performance and web standards.”
And hey, because Waterfox is a Firefox fork, that oh so precious user agent data people love to bring up to dissuade people from leaving poor Mozilla to shrivel up is still telling websites ‘yep, this is a Gecko engine browser’.
Dear AI Techbros.
Why is AI in my browser something desirable for the common man?
It helps shareholders. Obligatory, I’m not a techbro
Mozilla’s a non-profit so what shareholders need to be please by bolting on this garbage to their browser?
Google’s.
Because you could theoretically order it to never show you stupid manipulative shit propaganda & brainrot and thus reclaim your spiritual/political/social life.
Disclaimer: I have not investigated at all how browsers are actually trying to apply AI.
No. One. Wants. That.
We have nowhere better to go. But that’s only for now, you short-sighted dumbass…
What I want: a secure browser that does just that and nothing more.
I’m so sick of AI everything.
I’m so fucking tired of CEOs and their shit-ass ideas
Everyone hated that
Boo this man!
BOOOOOOOO
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!
What a douche.
I guess im looking for a new browser. Anyone have a good alternative?
How about LibreWolf?
As there seems to have been recent confusion about this, just a quick “official” toot to then pin: we haven’t and won’t support “generative AI” related stuff in LibreWolf. If you see some features like that (like Perplexity search recently, or the link preview feature now) it is solely because it “slipped through”. As soon as we become aware of something like this / it gets reported to us, we will remove/disable it ASAP.
“Modern”, “AI” - buzzwords for shareholders
I’ve already switched to librewolf because of the ai update
It’s really just a matter of trust and they’ve clearly chosen to trust ai first and users second. That’s why you must turn it off instead of having to turn it on.
sad state of affairs
LibreWolf. Sounds vicious. I’ll give it a try!
Fucking yikes.
The entire premise of me going on a fucking tangent trying to reclaim my privacy and identity is because of the invasiveness of AI. I didn’t sign up to Mozilla to be fed more AI bullshit, I did it quite the inverse. The fact that I can’t be left the fucking god damn alone from AI enshitification infuriates me.
Am I going to need to build my own fucking web browser to avoid this shit?! Rhetorical question, the answer is yes, yes I will.
Quick, I got 5 weeks of break before classes start for me again, if any developer wants to build a web browser from scratch with me let me know and ill make the github repo.
Edit: on second thought we could implement our browser as a fork of gnome web instead of from scratch. GNOME web isn’t a derivative/fork of Firefox or chromium, however there are components from apple, like it’s rendering engine. Besides that, it’s not a bad idea to use
Or even better surely would be contributing to gnome web directly?
