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Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
Genuinely, who keeps posting shit like this on here? I keep seeing posts such as this one and it’s honestly pushing me away from Lemmy. Why spend time on a platform that hates me? If being a man who didn’t date (because of social anxiety, btw, not that you’d care, since clearly men are by default fascists, according to some comments here) is a sin, let us know on the front page, so that me and others like myself can avoid this place.
A lot of comments are, thankfully, calling this shitty behaviour out. But then I look at the post itself, which has 696 upvotes and 166 downvotes, and I’m like… I’m not wanted here.
it reads like a smug take from a shitlib clout chaser with zero nuance and zero understanding beyond the superficial to me, so that’d be my first guess.
there are a whole lot of them out there, making everything around them worse.
It’s no better anywhere. I bet the same people who post this shit also bitch and moan about men staying away from leftist spaces. I am liberal, but I don’t kid myself about what these people think of me.
Do you mind if I ask who you mean by “these people”?
pseudo-“leftist” take generators who make up shit to mock & deride for clout, perhaps
And this group makes up a relevant portion of leftist spaces?
I mean I don’t think the person is really accusing all men, or even lonely men of this, just those who self identify as belonging to a “male loneliness epidemic” a term that’s often utilized by alt right influencers.
for deplorable American values of ❝leftist,❞ yes, not sure where you’ve been the last few years assuming you’re genuinely asking.
Lol, as opposed to Lemmy…where everyone has actual leftist values, until you mention feminism.
We have several threads about this. Reddit several subs that crawl with shit like this.
Do you think it’s completely baseless? I mean there’s people like Andrew tate with millions of viewers who subscribe to this type of behavior. Do you think that the rebuttal outweighs the originating source?
I just don’t even see why you would lump yourself in with the accused? Unless you are someone following someone like tate, why do you think they are talking about you?
ah, okay, so you weren’t genuinely asking, you were being smug and baiting with gotchas. noted.
Lol, no it’s an actual question. I don’t really see any gotcha-like statements, just explaining my point of view.
Btw accusations aren’t really a rebuttal. Good attempt though!
We don’t lump ourselves in with the accused. The people accusing so often paint with such a broad brush that if it were directed at any demographic other than men, it would be immediately attacked for being racist/sexist/pick a sexuality phobic. But since it’s attacking men, it gets a pass for some reason among left and center leaning media.
~45% of men aren’t voting for the right, but they’re getting attacked for the actions of those that did. If anyone speaks up against that, they get mocked for dating to say “not all men”, as if standing up for yourself against baseless accusations is repulsive because we dared to have the same sewage equipment as some bad people. You can see it in this thread.
Is this a US thing? Are things this fucked up over there?
People who self identify as being part of the male loneliness epidemic is a broad stroke? I very much doubt anyone who isn’t chronically online even knows what that is…
By who…? No significant portion of society is making that claim, you are painting with a pretty broad stroke there.
What I see throughout the majority of this thread is people sharing your views. People making generalities against women or leftist and then accusing them of making false generalities.
Anytime someone makes a criticism of a male trait they instantly claim not all men, despite no one claiming that it applied to all men.
My issue is with how its talked about and all the generalization of men. And I think the dialog around it feeds these boys to the likes of tate. These kids grow up hearing that man vs bear shit, being told their problems don’t matter and that they are the root cause of all the world’s problems. We basically are telling them that is where they belong.
Are you not doing the same thing with leftist?
Don’t let the vote ratio on the post turn you away. I’m pretty sure most people assume tumblr is cringe, so a cringe post isn’t going to be downvoted to oblivion.
Daaaaamn this one hit you right in the testicles didn’t it?
Everyone take note, how it is completely ignoring the ‘oh yeah this is totally fucked’ part and crying about how it cant get fucked. This is what happens every time. Always. Abd its up votes are positive. Which means a majority of the men here are this gross. A wide majority. This is why women don’t want to fuck fuck you; the straightest woman in the world woukd die of serotonin syndrome before she choked down enough zofran to put up with this shit and still be aroused. You all just skip over the part about needing to maje close connections while gwtting in touch woth your feelings and skip straight to being gross to women about how we won’t fuck you.
But if this were really about needing to fuck and not misogyny, you’d stop whining at us and hop on grindr.
Your attitude is just proving my point further. The only benefit of the doubt I can give you is that you can’t comprehend what I was saying. Also, as far as I know, isn’t Grindr for LGBTQ+? If so, why would I go there? I am straight. Or do you think straight men should “stop whining” and date other men? How is this different from conservatives telling gay people to just not be gay?
At the very least, thank you for letting me know I shouldn’t be spending time on Lemmy. Keep acting like this and then complain about people using non-Fediverse sites. I’m just done. Enjoy Lemmy, the home of double standards and hatred. I won’t take part in it any longer.
Yes, lemmy; the home of being overwhelmed by mean women.
This platform’s demographic is overwhelmingly men who are enthusiastic about tech… not exactly a population known for being a bunch of Casanovas.
Kinda feels like you are taking a post originally made on a different platform kinda personal. Judging by some of the comments there are plenty of dudes who don’t date because of social anxiety, and there seems to be some regurgitating incel propaganda.
Maybe the OG poster shouldn’t speak in absolutes, however I think it’s a reasonable criticism as a lot of the ideology surrounding “male loneliness” was created/utilized by right winged influencers to grow their viewership.
If someone said “lemmy users with the word ‘empire’ in their name are unworthy of love and need to get gud at dating.” I think you might take their words a little personal even if the post wasn’t literally directly targeted at you.
Lol, nah I don’t really take generalities personally, that’s why they’re called generalities.
Why get upset at something that isn’t specifically addressed to me and doesn’t even make any sense?
Racism is almost always generalities, that aren’t addressed to an individual person. Why does anyone get upset at racism?
Lol, just because some generalities are bad, doesn’t mean all generalities are bad. Claiming that they are is in fact a generality.
It’s almost like you are allergic to the concept of nuance.
It was an example of it conceptually it wasn’t meant to be a serious generality obviously.
Also generalities are bad. If people started saying that people with specific traits that you specifically share were always bad people in some way, it would bother you.
Further, you can be bothered even if you are emotionally secure about yourself. Its not always even “taking it personally” because sometimes people have empathy for people who are like them but aren’t them and dislike seeing them thrown under the bus.
I myself am not really a guy who is bad with women anymore (I’m not rolling in pussy but I can get around) but I used to be painfully bad about it and I know I wasn’t some awful person worthy of scorn and disdain because of that. I wasn’t some loser sociopath for wanting sex with women when I wasn’t getting any.
And neither are lonely sad sexless guys. I don’t like them being mocked because I’ve been there and I know that it doesn’t help to be mocked for a “skill issue” anyway. Mocking them sends them further into a self loathing or hateful spiral. Telling them to be better people implies they are bad people for not having sex or having a girlfriend.
Its like telling fat people they’re fat: it doesn’t actually help. It usually makes them give up.
That said… them saying they’re done with dating doesn’t mean they’re bad people either. Just like women don’t owe them sex, these men also don’t owe women their time and effort. Its perfectly morally fine to be done with dating women forever. It wont be pleasant for the guys who try TBH, but its morally fine.
Now, are some of these guys pieces of shit? Sure, but that doesn’t relate to their sexlessness. Absolute pieces of trash have sex with hotties and it doesn’t suddenly make them good people either.
Lol… Gonna let that one steep and see if you spot the contradiction in that.
Not if the trait itself was a valid criticism. All pedophiles are bad…is that a bad generality to you?
Again, this is a strawman argument. No one is claiming that all lonely men are incels… They were specifically talking about people with the idea of a male loneliness epidemic. An ideology that is utilized to radicalize young men by right winged influencers.
It also doesn’t make them part of the loneliness epidemic. If it wasn’t about sex then they would just focus on building healthy relationships with friends. If they are making a conscious decision to not pursue sex then why are they upset?
There is cognitive dissonance occuring here where people are claiming that it’s not about sex, but then being hysterical about not being able to find a partner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_Pedophiles
Acting on it is bad obviously.
Thing is, I also don’t believe in good/evil or free will. As a result I categorically reject virtue ethics anyway so IDK how meaningful discussing this further can be.
The male loneliness epidemic isn’t strictly a “rightwing ideology”. Incel/redpill is rightwing ideology.
There is also a female loneliness epidemic. Though its fairly different in nature.
I never said that sex wasn’t an important component of the issue.
You aren’t this dumb. You know exactly why they’d still be upset. They would be making the conscious decision because they are trying to seek a sliver of personal peace after a period of failure or simply because of disillusionment with heterosexual dating. Its not like they’d be making that decision and feel content that they’re going to live without a sexual or romantic partner. They’re trying to avoid the pain of the process of seeking it, they’d still want a partner.
Have you never seen someone so attractive to you that it physically HURT? I have. Literal physical chronic pain. And once I established they lacked any mutual romantic interest in me I avoided them like the plague and tried to forget they existed as best as possible, which was hard because I worked in the same building. Thank fuck I don’t work there anymore.
this person is a low-rent troll with delusions of grandeur. look at their other comments in the thread. example after example of trash-tier baiting while thinking they are oh so clever.
I think they’re primarily authentic rather than trolling/pretending, its just that they have twitter/bluesky disease where they think the best way to engage is by vapidly dunking.
Lol, you are such a pedant. Okay, all pedophiles who act on urges are bad… That’s not a correct generality?
I mean if that was true you wouldn’t have an issue with the original claim.
I agree, I don’t really think speaking to someone who isn’t arguing in good faith is going to be productive.
It just happens to align with it constantly…right.
So what you are saying is that people are lonely.
Just making rebuttals for people who did… If you don’t adopt the same claim then your rebuttals are irrelevant to the organinal argument.
And lashing out at other to seek a sliver of personal peace after making a personal choice is socially acceptable behavior that shouldn’t be criticized?
Jesus Christ… No reason to call yourself out this hard. Are you in middle school or something? I don’t have a sliver of empathy for your “chronic pain”. Some random woman was attractive, and didn’t reciprocate your romantic interests and you chronically avoided them, a co-worker…
What if they believed that you were painfully ugly, and avoided you because of it, treated you differently just because of your appearance… Do you even understand what I’m getting at here?
What? The original claim? That pedophiles are bad? Not believing in free will technically nullifies any moral evaluation of the virtues of any group. The only thing that would matter is consequences.
Yes, but the nature of that loneliness is different when it comes to romantic loneliness within the heterosexual sphere. Just look at how many more men are on dating apps vs women.
Lashing out? I think you are inserting something into the conversation that I never defended. Maybe mixing up responses.
I never understood this obsession with anon people “telling on themselves”. Its called setting aside ego and engaging in good faith. We don’t know each other, there is no reason for me to restrict what I say here about myself. I’ll tell you any embarrassing thing about myself because why would I care? There are no stakes other than the discourse. Which you don’t seem like you have a good authentic desire to engage with.
TBH I’m also pretty dead inside so I probably wouldn’t care if we were in person either but still why are you so obsessed with status on a random internet thread?
I think you are potentially projecting additional details here and that by avoiding her I was hurting her feelings or something. She almost certainly had no idea I was avoiding her. I wasn’t making a big show of it.
I had no ill will towards her I just was avoiding an infohazard.
Its completely unsurprising to me that you lack empathy and it was an error of mine in assuming you were maybe capable of it considering your other responses. My mistake I guess.
Its not like I owed her my consistent presence outside of professional necessity which was fortunately rare. Its not some kind of injustice that I dare not be her work friend.
If you are male and lonely but it is because of social anxiety, why do you feel attacked by this? You have a different, external reason for being lonely than the broad swath of the criticism.
Why do you feel attacked by this if it is advocating for circumstances (men improving their interelational dynamics to build deeper friendships) that would likely improve your opportunities to comfortably challenge your social anxiety?
If you feel attacked, is it because your attitude is the problem being criticized? That rather than seeing your social anxiety as your burden to overcome, you instead see it as a reason that society owes you access to the company of women you find attractive - that at the heart of it, you feel aggreived that women don’t have to pick you?
I’m not ElPsyKongroo, but I feel personally attacked by this because it calls me out specifically:
They’re directly adressing me. Of course I take offense.
It’s because my attitude is being ignored. I do try to be as pleasant as possible to be around. My social anxiety is my burden to overcome, but the annihilation of third places and the skyrocketing income inequality preventing people from having the time or money to date is a societal problem that contributes heavily to this trend. I really like the implication that if I’m upset about this situation, it must mean that I want the government to force women to date me
Because these posts lump all men without relationships together. Does the Tumblr user above make any mention of exceptions? Nope. The post boils down to men who didn’t date didn’t succeed because “skill issue”. This would imply that regardless of any other possible causes, I am deserving of ridicule because I don’t live life like you.
You yourself make assumptions about me. I was right to say “because of social anxiety, btw, not that you’d care”, because immediately here’s a reply that implies my social anxiety is not real, or it is but it’s not relevant. You assume the worst of me because I dare not have a girlfriend. This is precisely the issue. I’ve long since moved on from pursuing dating. I don’t care if I never have a girlfriend anymore. However, what I do care is if people assume I’m a horrible piece of shit because of it.
Long story short, your comment is case in point: It does not matter what I say. My reply to you is useless. I never had a girlfriend and therefore anything I say is discarded because I have to be an asshole in order for that to be the case.
I’m not Vreyan31. But I just wanted to pick on this point of yours:
The thing is all posts lump all things together. Most posts assume they are talking to the average person/situation. It’s not just relationship skill issue posts.
If, for example, someone made a spelling skill issue post. I would agree, even though I am dyslexic and I have bad spelling. Spelling is generally something people can work on to improve. I can work on it for improvement too, but with 100x less return on investment. That is why I don’t practice improving my spelling, it isn’t worth my time as opposed to other tools.
It’s hard to be the non-average person in these posts, so I get it.
The thing is no one can make a relationship skill issue post and list all the exceptions. The post would be 100 pages long.
So you have to ask yourself, is this post really targeting you.
I want to discuss the first statement in your last reply - about “lumping all single men together”.
That is just how quantification of anything works. If we were talking about unemployment, or number of people with blue cars, or days with rain - if there is an increase, you mark on the sum increase over the previous baseline, and discuss potential reasons for the new influx.
If you think you are part of the previous baseline - guys who would have been single in past generations, then the discussion doesn’t apply to you. Even if no one goes through and specifically excludes you. Because the influx is what is being discussed - not the baseline.
But I don’t think you are actually upset at being lumped in with the influx. I think you are upset because the guys in the influx are being rediculed and you desperately want to find a reason to both be mad about that and to say those criticisms don’t apply to you.
You say you don’t want to be assumed to be a PoS bc you don’t have a gf.
If you really are not trying to date, I don’t think you run the risk of that.
The criticism in the top post is directed at guys who are obsessed with their dating status - but see it as a game they are losing, and women as objects to be manipulated into what they want.
If you are trying to date but see women as hostile opponents to be ‘managed’, you are going to act like a PoS.
What determines your PoS status isn’t your dating status - it’s whether you see and treat women as fully equal people with the same expectations to dignity and respect as your guy friends, or if you see women as alien beings on an opposing team - targets to potentially be manipulated to get what you long for, or targets of resentment for withholding or being inaccessable for what you long for.
If you are truly single and don’t have any resentments towards women about it, you are unlikely to come off as a PoS.
But honestly, that isnt how your comments are coming off
No.
No.
No one assumes this just because you don’t have a girlfriend. It is the narrative you have around the lack of girlfriend that gives that away.
You, like most incels and misogynists, are a vulnerable narcissist. That is why you are constantly playing victim and changing the narrative to fit the idea that you’re a victim. That is also why you have social issues - you don’t know how to love unconditionally/engage in radical acceptance. However, you’re going to pathologically change this info I gave you into you being a victim somehow, and you can just save it. I don’t care and won’t give you any narcissistic supply to feed your victim narrative.
Go. back. to. reddit.
Weird thing to say at the end of a comment where you proved every concern of his right
It is not my job to manage his feelings. That’s caretaking a narcissist and makes them worse. It’s ok to communicate (ie “I do not care”) and put up boundaries (I won’t respond). Further, his main concern was that him not having a girlfriend makes others label him as weird - no. It’s that he himself is weird, not anything to do with women. So no, I did nothing to “confirm” his false beliefs, it is not my job as a woman to caretake or cater to his fears or perform emotional labor for men. Grow up.
But nice attempt at DARVO there
You dregs from reddit are so much worse than the Eternal November dregs from Twitter, at least most of those had a couple brain cells to rub together and maybe also one or two original thoughts in their entire life.
You just called him a narcissist for expressing his feelings.
It went from him saying “maybe don’t attack men over their relationship status” and you take offense at “not being the caretaker of their emotions” and continue to attack him, while also invoking the very same darvo you’re employing…
How are you lacking this much self awareness?
No, I didn’t, read again.
No, he didn’t, read again.
I’m not going to cater to you either, just letting you know since you clearly have the same vulnerable narcissism lmfao. Go pound sand
You have a real knack for demonstrably defeating your own arguments as you are making them. It’s honestly impressive.
Do you even know what narcissism is? You’re just throwing that at everyone who cares to point how how wrong you are, regardless of any lack of speaking about themself.
Actually it is lumping together the people who self identify as belonging to a “male loneliness epidemic”.
Something that is kinda counterintuitive if you just think about it for a second… Can a demographic of people have an epidemic of loneliness. If they’re so lonely why don’t they just be friends? Are there not other men experiencing the same anxieties as you in this self identified group?
Again…it seems like loneliness isn’t the issue. It seems you’re just doing the thing the og post accused people of doing. If it’s not about sex, why don’t you just make some guy friends, or just friends who happen to be girls?
No it’s not, they said “to all the men out there not getting laid.” How dare a man out there not getting laid assume the post is talking about him just because it literally is?
I mean, yeah. There are plenty of other men experiencing the same anxieties, and talking about them in threads like this. And then we get people like that lusty argonian lass replying to us calling us narcissists and incels because we had the audacity to talk about these anxieties. And of course, the fact that we don’t like being called incels and narcissists is PROOF that we’re incels and narcissists.
You know there’s more to a relationship than sex, yeah? Like, I assume you don’t see your SO as nothing more than a sex dispenser. I also assume you see your relationship with your SO as fundamentally different from your relationships with other friends. Lemme know if I’m wrong about either of those.
Also, the guy you’re replying to isn’t complaining about the fact that he doesn’t have a girlfriend, he’s complaining about the fact that people treat him like some kind of weirdo because he doesn’t have a girlfriend
Edit to add:
This completely ignores the heart of the issue, the fact that the mechanisms by which we are able to make friends have largely been taken away from us. Everything costs money now, money that people don’t have. There is a dearth of affordable third places, and widespread internet use has ensured that what third places there still are have fewer people than ever to meet.
Ahh yes… The second statement is made without any regard to the context of first statement.
If that’s the case, what’s wrong with advising men who aren’t getting laid to focus on self improvement?
Sooo… If you are all so lonely, I suggest you be friends. You already have a bunch in common. Then you’d have no reason to blame everyone else for your inability to build meaningful relationships! Some how I don’t think you’re just looking for male companionship…
Yeah… But I don’t rely solely on my wife for companionship. It’s not exactly healthy to be emotionally codependent.
Besides a closer physical intimacy… Not really. My best friend and his wife are very dear to me and I would share anything with them that I would share with my wife.
Idk, kinda seems like he tries to misdirect all his issues to the fact that he doesn’t have a partner. It’s really not abnormal to be single, especially now a days.
And once again, I am accused of lying because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I’m not even gonna expand further on the fact that I do have friends who happen to be girls. The reason I won’t expand further is because you’ll just assume I am lying about it. Just as Vreyan31 did, and just as you did.
You are purposedly pretending not to understand that my issue is not sex, it’s people assuming I am a piece of shit for not having sex. And to further your own view, you just prove my point, which is that people will disregard anything I say just cause I didn’t have a relationship. Seems that the person obsessed with sex isn’t me. I’m not the one making judgements of others based on whether they did it or not.
When did I accuse you of lying? I think you may be misunderstanding the original post, and the social implementations of a more reclusive generation butting against traditional social norms. However, id hardly say that’s an accusation of lying.
Then how does your situation apply to the original claim, and why do you think you belong in the “male loneliness epidemic”?
Who made that claim? You interpreted that based on the original post…but if you have friends, why do you consider yourself lonely?
Being friends with people is a relationship… The only thing anyone can logically conclude based on the framework of this post is that your self identification of belonging to the epidemic revolves around sex.
Okay, so you have plenty of friends, even with girls. But you are still identifying as being part of the male loneliness epidemic because of…? What exactly?
They are a vulnerable narcissist, like most misogynists/incels. They pathologically must pretend to be a victim to curate their delusions about women.
https://www.verywellmind.com/signs-of-a-vulnerable-narcissist-7369901
At the very least there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on…
If this isn’t about “women withholding sex” as they claim…then what is it about? Like, how am I supposed to make you have friends? Relationships of any sort are hard work, no one just hands you their time and effort.
By their own words, it is about being criticized and thus victimized (they equate the two) by society for not having a girlfriend. No matter what you say, this is their victim narrative that they have to keep repeating over and over again to confirm their delusions that they are a massive victim to society. Anything you say will be interpreted as an attack so they can self victimize and feed their vulnerable narcissist beliefs. It is in every comment they’ve written here, nearly algorithmic.