Show transcript
Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
If someone said “lemmy users with the word ‘empire’ in their name are unworthy of love and need to get gud at dating.” I think you might take their words a little personal even if the post wasn’t literally directly targeted at you.
Lol, nah I don’t really take generalities personally, that’s why they’re called generalities.
Why get upset at something that isn’t specifically addressed to me and doesn’t even make any sense?
Racism is almost always generalities, that aren’t addressed to an individual person. Why does anyone get upset at racism?
Lol, just because some generalities are bad, doesn’t mean all generalities are bad. Claiming that they are is in fact a generality.
It’s almost like you are allergic to the concept of nuance.
It was an example of it conceptually it wasn’t meant to be a serious generality obviously.
Also generalities are bad. If people started saying that people with specific traits that you specifically share were always bad people in some way, it would bother you.
Further, you can be bothered even if you are emotionally secure about yourself. Its not always even “taking it personally” because sometimes people have empathy for people who are like them but aren’t them and dislike seeing them thrown under the bus.
I myself am not really a guy who is bad with women anymore (I’m not rolling in pussy but I can get around) but I used to be painfully bad about it and I know I wasn’t some awful person worthy of scorn and disdain because of that. I wasn’t some loser sociopath for wanting sex with women when I wasn’t getting any.
And neither are lonely sad sexless guys. I don’t like them being mocked because I’ve been there and I know that it doesn’t help to be mocked for a “skill issue” anyway. Mocking them sends them further into a self loathing or hateful spiral. Telling them to be better people implies they are bad people for not having sex or having a girlfriend.
Its like telling fat people they’re fat: it doesn’t actually help. It usually makes them give up.
That said… them saying they’re done with dating doesn’t mean they’re bad people either. Just like women don’t owe them sex, these men also don’t owe women their time and effort. Its perfectly morally fine to be done with dating women forever. It wont be pleasant for the guys who try TBH, but its morally fine.
Now, are some of these guys pieces of shit? Sure, but that doesn’t relate to their sexlessness. Absolute pieces of trash have sex with hotties and it doesn’t suddenly make them good people either.
Lol… Gonna let that one steep and see if you spot the contradiction in that.
Not if the trait itself was a valid criticism. All pedophiles are bad…is that a bad generality to you?
Again, this is a strawman argument. No one is claiming that all lonely men are incels… They were specifically talking about people with the idea of a male loneliness epidemic. An ideology that is utilized to radicalize young men by right winged influencers.
It also doesn’t make them part of the loneliness epidemic. If it wasn’t about sex then they would just focus on building healthy relationships with friends. If they are making a conscious decision to not pursue sex then why are they upset?
There is cognitive dissonance occuring here where people are claiming that it’s not about sex, but then being hysterical about not being able to find a partner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_Pedophiles
Acting on it is bad obviously.
Thing is, I also don’t believe in good/evil or free will. As a result I categorically reject virtue ethics anyway so IDK how meaningful discussing this further can be.
The male loneliness epidemic isn’t strictly a “rightwing ideology”. Incel/redpill is rightwing ideology.
There is also a female loneliness epidemic. Though its fairly different in nature.
I never said that sex wasn’t an important component of the issue.
You aren’t this dumb. You know exactly why they’d still be upset. They would be making the conscious decision because they are trying to seek a sliver of personal peace after a period of failure or simply because of disillusionment with heterosexual dating. Its not like they’d be making that decision and feel content that they’re going to live without a sexual or romantic partner. They’re trying to avoid the pain of the process of seeking it, they’d still want a partner.
Have you never seen someone so attractive to you that it physically HURT? I have. Literal physical chronic pain. And once I established they lacked any mutual romantic interest in me I avoided them like the plague and tried to forget they existed as best as possible, which was hard because I worked in the same building. Thank fuck I don’t work there anymore.
this person is a low-rent troll with delusions of grandeur. look at their other comments in the thread. example after example of trash-tier baiting while thinking they are oh so clever.
I think they’re primarily authentic rather than trolling/pretending, its just that they have twitter/bluesky disease where they think the best way to engage is by vapidly dunking.
Lol, you are such a pedant. Okay, all pedophiles who act on urges are bad… That’s not a correct generality?
I mean if that was true you wouldn’t have an issue with the original claim.
I agree, I don’t really think speaking to someone who isn’t arguing in good faith is going to be productive.
It just happens to align with it constantly…right.
So what you are saying is that people are lonely.
Just making rebuttals for people who did… If you don’t adopt the same claim then your rebuttals are irrelevant to the organinal argument.
And lashing out at other to seek a sliver of personal peace after making a personal choice is socially acceptable behavior that shouldn’t be criticized?
Jesus Christ… No reason to call yourself out this hard. Are you in middle school or something? I don’t have a sliver of empathy for your “chronic pain”. Some random woman was attractive, and didn’t reciprocate your romantic interests and you chronically avoided them, a co-worker…
What if they believed that you were painfully ugly, and avoided you because of it, treated you differently just because of your appearance… Do you even understand what I’m getting at here?
What? The original claim? That pedophiles are bad? Not believing in free will technically nullifies any moral evaluation of the virtues of any group. The only thing that would matter is consequences.
Yes, but the nature of that loneliness is different when it comes to romantic loneliness within the heterosexual sphere. Just look at how many more men are on dating apps vs women.
Lashing out? I think you are inserting something into the conversation that I never defended. Maybe mixing up responses.
I never understood this obsession with anon people “telling on themselves”. Its called setting aside ego and engaging in good faith. We don’t know each other, there is no reason for me to restrict what I say here about myself. I’ll tell you any embarrassing thing about myself because why would I care? There are no stakes other than the discourse. Which you don’t seem like you have a good authentic desire to engage with.
TBH I’m also pretty dead inside so I probably wouldn’t care if we were in person either but still why are you so obsessed with status on a random internet thread?
I think you are potentially projecting additional details here and that by avoiding her I was hurting her feelings or something. She almost certainly had no idea I was avoiding her. I wasn’t making a big show of it.
I had no ill will towards her I just was avoiding an infohazard.
Its completely unsurprising to me that you lack empathy and it was an error of mine in assuming you were maybe capable of it considering your other responses. My mistake I guess.
Its not like I owed her my consistent presence outside of professional necessity which was fortunately rare. Its not some kind of injustice that I dare not be her work friend.
If you don’t believe in free will then what is the point of disputing or chastising any claim? Why would consequences even matter if they are already pre-determined by circumstance or a higher power?
Maybe that’s because women are better at communication and thus are more likely not seek emotional support from friends instead of seeking codependency with a partner.
What is the actual difference between romantic loneliness and loneliness…kinda just sounds like you’re defining it as sex plus codependency.
Eh… Based on our previous conversation you appear to be harboring some unhealthy opinions.
It’s not just embarrassing… It’s admitting to immaturity and an inability to process your emotions, and then treating someone poorly because of it. So what, you didn’t get something you wanted, that’s life. There’s no reason then to lash out at your coworker by avoiding them, just because they had the audacity to be attractive.
Lol, status? What does anything we communicated about have to do with status?
Avoiding a coworker because of the way they look is not only poor work place etiquette, but it’s morally abject. Im sure if a woman made a post about avoiding a guy at work because of his looks you would have a different opinion…
You were avoiding confronting your emotional immaturity.
I have empathy… it’s just for your coworker, who did nothing wrong and was treated differently just because she didn’t reciprocate your feelings.
You don’t have to be her work friend, just don’t treat her differently than everyone else because she’s an attractive woman.
Because suffering, pleasure, and conscious beings are at stake? I’m confused about what you think of the moral implications of not believing in free will actually is. It sounds like you place all meaning on choice/will or something. I don’t do that. I care about people’s happiness and well being, not their will (at least not intrinsically).
“better at” is this some sort of team sports competition? Yeah, some groups of people are better at certain things. Is there a reason you hang on that point in particular? I hear this point a lot and I don’t know if when I hear it they’re saying it as some kind of dunk on men or they’re making some kind of constructive contribution/suggestion without explicitly saying it. So you’ll need to clarify.
I mean, when it comes to sex and relation with romance, its about physical touch, associating physical release with another human being, another person’s pleasure becoming your own. etc.
“Codependency”? If you are entirely cynical perhaps. The term is interdependence. When you romantically bond with someone deeply, you generally become deeply dependent on them and they become dependent on you. And yeah, sex is going to bond you way way stronger to a person.
You’ll need to be a little more specific. I already know I’m mentally unwell.
I did not treat them poorly. They had no idea I was avoiding them. I was polite and professional when I had to interact.
I did not lash out. I was avoiding psychological pain. That’s it. I did not hold anything against them individually. Seeing them made me cripplingly and dysfunctionally sad, but they did not know that. Shit if they had seen how sad they made me they’d probably assume I was being emotionally manipulative. There would be no benefit to them interacting with that, I had no desire to make them feel guilty and I had no desire to feel cripplingly sad if it could be avoided.
I think that’s a pretty mature and reasonable way to handle things. I’m not sure exactly what your alternative would have been.
I think I confronted my emotions and decided the best way to handle them was to avoid making them worse and focus on other things and other people as best as I could. How is that immature?
Yeah I’m aware you’re real sad for them. I promise you they’re almost certainly happier today than I am. I would bet money. And she was never ever even aware of my internal feelings, other than at one point I asked her out and she politely rejected me.
You treat people differently based on their appearance all the time. Everyone does. You are probably just less conscious about it.