These comments have an interesting pattern. It’s a dead give away on who funded the convoy.
If they think that will make more people support the conservatives they are very wrong, if anything it will do the opposite.
Unfortunately, I’ve run into a lot of very average people who think the convoy was what “ended covid lockdowns”. They know it messed up Ottawa for a while, and feel bad about that, but are “happy with the end result.” The vast majority havn’t ever listened to those racist rants by the organizers, read their manifesto stuff, or read the journalism investigating their funding sources. Mainstream media never covered any of that in detail -probably because of how distasteful it was. They remember messy street protests, annoyed residents, and lockdowns ending. That’s it.
I understand why those people were unhappy about all the covid restrictions but yeah I know that the organizers were racist and that makes the whole thing questionable at best.
I feel the need to clear the point that the lockdown/restrictions were provincial, and set to expire during those 2 weeks long before the protest was even organized. The public opinion had already turned, and there was no appetite for further restrictions at that point. They cannot take credit for “ending the lockdowns” but unfortunately, the timing and limited awareness make it seem so.
At least they are saying it openly now.
Not sure where I stand on the vaccine thing.
I fully support science and think vaccines should be mandatory, especially during a global pandemic that we haven’t seen in a hundred years. Or, for example, measle vaccines before exposing yourself to others during a measles outbreak.
I’m also for body autonomy with abortion and what medical care and what vaccines you receive.
It cuts both ways.
In the end I think the failing here is education. Not enforcement. IMO most reasonable people would take the vaccine. The only reason reasonable people don’t is because they do not trust government or science, due to lack of education or understanding.
You really just needed to think an extra 10 minutes before writing this down.
It doesn’t “cut both ways” those are two separate issues: personal health and public health.
If you think seat belts, fluoride in water, warning labels on poison bottles, bittrex in antifreeze are being foisted upon your personal choices, then you need to reconsider that there are other people than you in the world.
It’s not that complicated: get vaccinated so you and others are less likely to die when disease rolls around.
You know what the word “mandatory” means, right? In this one comment you say you’re for mandatory vaccines in exactly the scenario that the convoy morons were whining about but also go off about bodily autonomy. Yes, education is important but also we have regulations and laws because unfortunately we don’t live in a fairy land where everyone behaves themselves and considers the well-being of their fellow person.
It doesn’t cut both ways equally, not by a long shot.
I somewhat agree. But how do you make laws for forcing people to get vaccines, yet let them choose to have abortions, or refuse medical care, or eat garbage food, drink alcohol etc, for example?
Like, how would you define that on a societal level, and also have exceptions for situations the law doesnt account for?
These things dont exactly equate, but I can see why being forced by the government to get a vaccines irks some people. I think it all stems from them thinking that vaccines harm you, or cause autism or whatever. That and that we haven’t had a truly deadly pandemic or disease going around in living memory (thanks again to science and our predecessors getting vaccinated) that would cause people to prefer the vaccine over say polio. People are losing fath in institutions and we are not educating our children with critical thinking enough.
People aren’t forced to get vaccines. They are forced to live with the consequences of whatever they decide. If it is in the interest of public health that people who are not vaccinated stay away from public places or immune compromised places like hospitals, then people who make the choice not to get vaccinated, make themselves unable to participate. No one gets held down and forced to be vaccinated however they may lose some privileges (temporarily) that go with being vaccinated. Once the pandemic was under control and people weren’t dying in large numbers every day, those limitations went away.
You’re preaching to the quirky here. I’m just saying it’s not so black and white, and that what we’re seeing is the symptom of a larger issue.
Edit: lmao quirky. I’m gonna leave that autocorrect in cause it’s hilarious.
The only one in there you listed that doesn’t affect only the person making the decision is vaccines. The classic quote is something like “Your freedom to swing your fist ends at someone’s face.”
Its not as absolute as it sounds. While vaccines do have externalities (eg: protection of others via herd immunity), so do the others I mentioned:
Refusing medical care can increase long-term public healthcare costs, especially in countries with socialized medicine, luke Canada
Eating garbage food or drinking excessively leads to chronic disease burdens (obesity, diabetes, liver disease), again impacting public systems and reducing workforce productivity. You could argue that this is mitigate through alcohol tax.
Abortion is more complicated, but opponents would argue there’s another life at stake, so from their moral framework, it’s not purely personal either.
The “freedom ends at someone else’s face” is useful but oversimplified. The real challenge is defining when individual choices cross the line into collective consequences, and which ones merit state intervention. Vaccines are one of the clearest examples, yes, but they’re not the only ones with spillover effects.
So my point is how do you define that line, legally? I think it needs to remain pragmatic. Societies change faster than laws do.
You’re stretching so much.
You know what else cost a lot to society? Old people. So let’s kill them all right?
There’s a difference between “this is expensive” and “this will actively kill people”.
We’ve banned smoking indoors because it affects other people, and, for a time, we banned unvaccinated people indoors for the same reason.
The line is super clear: will this directly affect others.
Abortion is more complicated, but opponents would argue there’s another life at stake, so from their moral framework, it’s not purely personal either.
This is another issue I’m surprised we’re still even debating.
someone’s abort doesn’t kill a strangers kids or grand parents. Come on use your brain or stop being disingenuous.
I agree with you, but that is not THEIR perspective. Many of them believe abortion IS murder.
I bet the believe in magical sky men that can bring back ppl from the dead too. When you take that stance you’re kinda not a critical thinker. I prefer to learn from ppl that know a lot.
The other comments put it well in saying that vaccines affect other people. Though, oddly enough, we do need better laws regarding what food can be sold as far as that one goes because companies making sugar-filled, addictive food very much on purpose is an action they take for personal gain that relies on hurting others.
For sure people are losing faith in institutions, and that is largely because of the critical thinking issues you mentioned and also the fact that we can’t help ourselves but elect at least a few untrustworthy people into office. The people who attended the convoy were largely Conservative voters and if they have a problem with the government they’re only going to make it that much worse by putting the scummiest people you know into positions of power.
These also aren’t really problems if you think about them or look to places that have already worked them out.
I agree. I’m from Australia, and vaccinations are mandatory and required, like you will be ordered by a court, and have your children removed if they are not vaccinated type of thing. I agree with this law.
I think people downvoting here are not understanding what I’m saying, or I didn’t explain it well enough. I’m not saying anti vaxxers are right. I am saying they have some merit with their arguments, but ultimately they only think these ideas due to lack of education and critical thinking.
Because you are saying, with near equal weight, both that mandatory vaccines are important and also body autonomy to do whatever(including vaccines). It has the same energy as “no offense but [offensive thing]” in that it sounds like you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth and we need to be extra sure you’re not just trying to cover your ass while spouting a bad opinion.
Every comment you make is one that is essentially in a vaccuum. I don’t know you, I don’t know your history, I just see a very weirdly placed comment saying that you agree in mandatory vaccination but also the convoy people have a point in a way that goes completely opposite to this first thing you believe. You’re also saying that the good point they have was only reached because they’re not smart, which is a weird thing to say. And Canada’s vaccination laws are way less intense than the ones you’re talking about, too, which just adds to the confusion.
I’m glad you believe that we need to do things to take care of one another in dangerous times but after that I really have no clue what you’re on about, to be honest.
My explanation is:
I agree that vaccines should be mandatory. I’m fully vaxxed on basically everything and even my dog gets their vaccinations. I trust in science and data.
That said, forcing people to do something they don’t want to do is not good for social cohesion. A better way is meeting them where they are and educating them. This is not happening and instead we are belittling them, ostracizing them etc. This is why they are protesting, pushing back and being a problem, because they feel attacked.
It doesn’t matter who is right because both think they are right.
Their arguments do have some merit, ie the government can’t just decide for you to under go a procedure. We shouldn’t just trust governments or scientists blindly or “it’s for the greater good”, that is basically the same as religion. They should instead be educated on why they can at least trust scientists and why scientists come to the conclusions they do, even if they aren’t biologists themselves. And why the government makes the decisions it does. Like sure, YOU probably won’t get sick, but when you’re dealing with millions and millions of people, a single sub percentage point can make the difference between everyone getting through it, or the health system buckling under pressure and failing, letting hundreds of thousands die.
They dont think like that. They’ve never been taught to, and that’s a failing of the education system.
Sure you will always have dissenters, but the point is to minimize them so they don’t affect the outcome much by refusing treatment.
I hope that makes sense.
Ok, for the sake of not having this conversation spiral out of control, I’m going to throw out your use of the word mandatory. You can’t say that you believe vaccines should be mandatory and also that you support the idea that people should be able to decide for themselves, no matter how much you would hope that education would lead to mass vaccination and generally doing the right thing.
“Mandatory” specifcally means that whether or not you want it, you have to get it. There is no choice in anything “mandatory” and if there is then it is definitionally not mandatory. I understand your point, and I don’t even fully disagree as I would also love to live in a world where people actually do the right thing without being forced to.
I think you brought up valid points and people are kind of over reacting. I agree education is the problem but what you said also got me to see the “not vaccinating myself is causing harm to others” viewpoint. Some here are being rude instead of engaging in better conversation. Your comment got me to think and read others.
Some here are being rude instead of engaging in better conversation.
People are tired. People still hold the feelings of frustration over the needless deaths, life-altering conditions and overworked medical staff who quit over the workload and aggressive and violent patients – all of it needless, all of it prolonged needlessly by the ignorant people whose personal importance overshadowed their community obligations and risked the 1:1000000 with actual issues and others who needed to rely on ‘herd’ immunity.
You know this. You saw this. You MUST understand this. Some of us lost friends and family, and in the last months of it we knew those lost would have been safe if the ignorant gits actually took their medicine. We hear the logic of the anti-vaxxer, we hear how it sounds like a drunk driver saying “but I need to drive home”, and we see anti-vaxxers who avoided the single most tested set of vaccines as the same as those negligent, homicidal drunks.
We’re not rude intentionally. We’re frustrated and tired at explaining something as simple as “trees are wood” to people retorting with “needles are scary so let the others die”. We’re annoyed we had to say it twice, let alone all the hundred of times after. And now someone says “but I’m important and I know more than doctors” and we aren’t at our best in that moment.
But how is “I see the point of anti-vax narcissists” not just trolling by now?
I get you are trying to open a philosophical debate, people are seeing it as strictly antivax, probably the wrong forum to discuss philosophy
On the whole the convoy was fucking embarrassingly bad, but then again so was the whole idea of “vaccine passports.” It was good to see people protesting it, horrifying to see how obnoxiously “conservative” most of them were. Shouts of “freedumb” everywhere, protesters thinking they were being rebellious when the cops were pretty much on their side, nobody around with the guts to call in the RCMP (there was a process for it. They could have done it) and get rid of the fucking trucks, bullshit half-baked misinterpreted pseudoscience on the TV, vilification of the idea of any dissent, carefully stage-managed presentation of the output of bureaucratic panic and confusion from the institutions of government, each side of the often stupid controversies absolutely refusing to listen to the other. Destroyed my faith in democracy, basically.
The wholesale adoption of pandemic rules was really wearing thin by the time the convoy took place. When Trudeau gave the interview where he called them racist and other things it really felt tone deaf to me. I know I’m not alone in neither welcoming them nor pretending I didn’t understand their frustration. I was not a fan of their tactics but I mean only in Ottawa could a protest pit truckers loudly partying on Parliament Hill against residents who were mostly complaining about the noise.
They had nazi flags. Use your brain.
There was ONE guy with a Nazi flag wearing a face covering (why? The protesters were anti mask) who was jeered out of the crowd and disappeared into a hotel. He was NOT with the convoy and definitely NOT supported by the protesters.
One is enough. That’s like saying there was one rapist.
One is enough IF he was actually part of the protest. He wasnt. There were even people in the convoy protest who offered a cash reward for his identity and no one ever found out who he was. Maybe coincidence, maybe not, but he disappeared up the steps into the hotel that the RCMP were staying at. The protesters werent staying there. So who was he?
And no, ONE person in a protest does not mean you can paint the thousands of others there with the same brush. If that were true you would have noticed that there was a counter protest just a few blocks away where ONE person in the crowd was carrying a hammer and sickle flag. Does that mean that crowd support Communists? Hardly. Chrystia Freeland held up a symbol of the Nazi party and then quickly deleted it (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freeland-nationalist-scarf-1.6372995) Does that mean the Liberals support Nazis? Hardly.
OK? Don’t hang out with nazi?
Okay everybody, protest over. Time to go home. Thousands of you have travelled hundreds of miles to be here but there’s no other choice. A Nazi was spotted scurrying around on the outskirts and the TV cameras found him.
You’ll never convince some people that the government should have the power to force vaccines on people and they believe people should always retain bodily autonomy. So agree to disagree.
That’s why I’m not interested in convincing them. I’m just interested in forcing them to take their fucking medicine.
Nobody had vaccines forced on them. Not one person in Canada.
No, telling someone they will lose their job if they dont get vaccinated is not ‘forcing’. Its more like ‘gentle persuasion’ right?
Of course people were forced. There are quite a few cases in Canada where people were laid off or fined who subsequently got their jobs back after the lunacy was over and they won their case in court. The Democracy Fund has been fighting these cases all over Canada.
And $300,000 in fines for Amish people and liens on their property is not “forced”??: https://www.thedemocracyfund.ca/amish_community_overcomes_financial_barriers
It was only “forcing” in the same way we force people to not drink and drive.
Both the vaccine restrictions and drunk driving laws are in place for the safety of everyone around you. You are free to choose to defy those restrictions, but that doesn’t mean you are free from the consequence of that choice. Just like driving drunk could result in the loss of your license. No one was breaking down doors and literally forcing a vaccine into people. There was always a choice. But there are also consequences for choosing the option that endangers the rest of the society you are participating in.
I am totally on board with there being consequences for stupid decisions that endanger others.
for stupid decisions that endanger others.
Sure. But there are plenty of reasons people had for refusing the vaccine that arent stupid at all. Including my cousin who is a pediatric ICU nurse and VERY well acquainted with vaccines and how they work. She was required to take the SARS vaccine and it physically damaged her immediately, and she now has heart complications that started right after she took her shot. So when the health board said she needed to take the Covid shot she pleaded her case as her heart couldnt take more damage if it were to have the same effect. They refused to grant her an exception so she retired from nursing instead. Not sure what part of that is ‘stupid’ but there wasnt exactly a lot of understanding - Trudeau made sure the message was that anyone who didnt take the shot was ‘unCanadian’ and most likely misogynists and racists and dont believe in science. Which was actually a pretty asshole thing to say. And why he’s not only no longer PM but he’s completely disappeared off the radar because the Liberal party doesnt want to remind Canadians of his existence.
So, she shouldn’t be working in that field. Her job is to care for others NOT get a nice retirement. Man nurse streo types real.
Lol. She did it exceptionally well for 30 years and there are many children alive today because of her care and YOU’RE going to pass judgement on her? LOL. Oh please.
It was her job which she refuses to protect others. Sorry you don’t get points for doing your job.
Your cousin’s case is a legitimate medical reason for an exemption and is why the rest of us need to maintain herd immunity by getting vaccinated. A bunch of guys I work with were refusing to get vaccinated just because they didn’t want to be told what to do. Guys like that are actively endangering the people who CAN’T get vaccinated, like your cousin. Herd immunity is critical in order to limit the spread of diseases and protect the people who can’t get vaccinated or who have other medical complications that put them at high risk.
Legitimate medical exemptions are fine. Deciding that you “just don’t want to” should come with consequences. My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.
My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.
You DO know that getting the shot didnt prevent anyone from carrying and transmitting covid, right? And you can still get covid even after vaccination?
The value of FORCING everyone to get the shot and isolating themselves really becomes questionable as we look at the long term effects: Mental health issues are way up. School age KIds lost two years of schooling and a lot of socialization skills. Drug use skyrocketed and we have a drug epidemic. Many seniors were severely emotionally impacted by not being able to see their families. Massive job losses particularly in the hospitality industry. Business closures. The division caused by the PM painting refusers as ‘bad Canadians’. Plus the ridiculous financial cost of the ArriveCan scam, paying for hotel rooms to isolate travellers, millions of vaccines that went unused, respirators that were bought at a premium and sold as scrap, to say nothing of the billions of dollars that were handed out with almost zero oversight MUCH of it completely wasted. Like the millions given to a QC company to build a pharmaceutical plant that never happened. And the rapid rise of inflation caused by injecting billions of dollars into the economy.
The Trudeau approach to forcing compliance cost this country A LOT and we’re going to be dealing with the fallout for many years to come. There was usefulness in the beginning but after two years Trudeau was actually saying that he saw further use for the digital app for allowing entrance into buildings and other access. NO THANKS, we dont need gov control over free movement and medical compliance.
Yes, I understand that it didn’t prevent us from catching it or spreading it. It did however, reduce the length of time we were sick. Which meant that since we were her primary carers, that she wasn’t without us for as long. Since it DID reduce the length of time and severity of our illness.
As far as all of the other gripes you seem to have around Covid, yes, I agree it wasn’t handled perfectly, but since we were dealing with a completely unfamiliar disease, we were working with what information was available at the time.
I don’t deny that in hindsight things could have been done better. But we should be judging the actions based on the context of the information at the time. Can we learn from the past and do better in the future? Absolutely. But I’m not going to hold every single Liberal at fault for the decisions of Trudeau.
Job requirements are a thing.
OK, I’ll bite. I read the WestJet article. The person won their case because the judge decided WestJet didn’t believe they were serious in their religious basis for their exemption request and therefore didn’t consider options to give the person work in another role that wouldn’t be impacted by their lack of vaccination.
This in no way supports your position that the mandates were somehow illegitimate.
There are more cases. You can google them. The Democracy Fund has been busy defending these people and getting their jobs back and getting their fines quashed. I didnt say that the vaccines weren’t legitimate. I was presenting the clear fact that people were indeed forced to comply in taking them. And some lost their jobs for not doing it. And some were given ridiculous fines for not doing it. Which contradicts the statement above that no one in Canada was forced to take the vaccine. We most definitely were.
I guess it comes down to your definition of “forced”. People were forced to get the vaccine in the same way they are forced to not walk around with a gun indiscriminately firing bullets - you’re welcome to do it in the privacy of your own home (as long as your home is big enough that the bullets won’t leave it) but if you want to participate in a society then you are forced to follow some rules.
What other definition of ‘forced’ is there, other than being coerced to do something against your will? Thats the definition of forced.
This was just reported this morning by a national press gallery media: “Incomplete figures show nearly 1,600 Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew resigned, were discharged or faced discipline for defying Covid orders” Sounds pretty forced to me.
And recall what touched off the whole convoy event? The government insisted that cross border truckers, the same guys who had been praised for keeping our international trade going and supplying our stores for the previous two years were going to be FORCED to get covid vaccines. These are guys who spend all their time in a truck cab and barely interact with anyone except the guy running the forklift to load them in the US but suddenly, after two years, Trudeau decided that to “participate in society” as you put it, they needed to get vaxxed. It didnt make any sense at that point, still doesnt. Thus the spark that ignited a huge protest. We were tired of being forced to do things that no longer made sense even if they did in the beginning.
You know what the problem with your definition of forced here is? You think it means having to face any consequences at all. That’s not what forced means. Just having to face consequences doesn’t mean you were forced to do something. Consequences are the result of free will. The result of making your own decisions. It’s naive and childish to think that you should never face consequences for anything you do. Every decision you make has consequences, no one’s forcing you to face them you’re choosing to face them. It’s part of the decision. Don’t want to take the vaccine you lose your job. No one forced you to make that choice you chose to make that choice. Consequences are part of choice.
So, we’re on a boat. It starts leaking with these mysterious finger sized holes. Most people start sticking fingers in holes to stop the water, but there are a bunch of people that are worried their finger might get stuck, or a fish might come and bite it or divine intervention will save the boat - and they decide not to stick their finger in a hole, and just for good measure some of the people that won’t stick their finger in a hole go and make a few new holes. You think that’s ok? For a bunch of people to, not only not contribute to saving everyone, but actually make the situation worse? And for there to be no consequences??
These people can’t understand there could be differing viewpoints to their own, whether they agree with them or not.
Libertarians are basically Nazis in their eyes as ironic as that sounds.
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I mean yeah some people who refused to get the vaccine could lose their job and all. That was pretty bad in some sense but you have to understand that when there is a pandemic it’s important that if a vaccine is out and ready to take it not only for your safety, actually you could be just fine without it yourself, but for the safety of others around you too and those who are weaker. If not taking a vaccine will endanger others around you then you should either take the vaccine or not go to public places where there are many people who could be at risk of dying from the virus. What I was really against is the whole passport thing and how they tried to get you to use some app and tracking you through that which was a privacy concern for me.
