No, telling someone they will lose their job if they dont get vaccinated is not ‘forcing’. Its more like ‘gentle persuasion’ right?
Of course people were forced. There are quite a few cases in Canada where people were laid off or fined who subsequently got their jobs back after the lunacy was over and they won their case in court. The Democracy Fund has been fighting these cases all over Canada.
It was only “forcing” in the same way we force people to not drink and drive.
Both the vaccine restrictions and drunk driving laws are in place for the safety of everyone around you. You are free to choose to defy those restrictions, but that doesn’t mean you are free from the consequence of that choice. Just like driving drunk could result in the loss of your license. No one was breaking down doors and literally forcing a vaccine into people. There was always a choice. But there are also consequences for choosing the option that endangers the rest of the society you are participating in.
I am totally on board with there being consequences for stupid decisions that endanger others.
Sure. But there are plenty of reasons people had for refusing the vaccine that arent stupid at all. Including my cousin who is a pediatric ICU nurse and VERY well acquainted with vaccines and how they work. She was required to take the SARS vaccine and it physically damaged her immediately, and she now has heart complications that started right after she took her shot. So when the health board said she needed to take the Covid shot she pleaded her case as her heart couldnt take more damage if it were to have the same effect. They refused to grant her an exception so she retired from nursing instead. Not sure what part of that is ‘stupid’ but there wasnt exactly a lot of understanding - Trudeau made sure the message was that anyone who didnt take the shot was ‘unCanadian’ and most likely misogynists and racists and dont believe in science. Which was actually a pretty asshole thing to say. And why he’s not only no longer PM but he’s completely disappeared off the radar because the Liberal party doesnt want to remind Canadians of his existence.
Your cousin’s case is a legitimate medical reason for an exemption and is why the rest of us need to maintain herd immunity by getting vaccinated. A bunch of guys I work with were refusing to get vaccinated just because they didn’t want to be told what to do. Guys like that are actively endangering the people who CAN’T get vaccinated, like your cousin. Herd immunity is critical in order to limit the spread of diseases and protect the people who can’t get vaccinated or who have other medical complications that put them at high risk.
Legitimate medical exemptions are fine. Deciding that you “just don’t want to” should come with consequences. My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.
My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.
You DO know that getting the shot didnt prevent anyone from carrying and transmitting covid, right? And you can still get covid even after vaccination?
The value of FORCING everyone to get the shot and isolating themselves really becomes questionable as we look at the long term effects: Mental health issues are way up. School age KIds lost two years of schooling and a lot of socialization skills. Drug use skyrocketed and we have a drug epidemic. Many seniors were severely emotionally impacted by not being able to see their families. Massive job losses particularly in the hospitality industry. Business closures. The division caused by the PM painting refusers as ‘bad Canadians’. Plus the ridiculous financial cost of the ArriveCan scam, paying for hotel rooms to isolate travellers, millions of vaccines that went unused, respirators that were bought at a premium and sold as scrap, to say nothing of the billions of dollars that were handed out with almost zero oversight MUCH of it completely wasted. Like the millions given to a QC company to build a pharmaceutical plant that never happened. And the rapid rise of inflation caused by injecting billions of dollars into the economy.
The Trudeau approach to forcing compliance cost this country A LOT and we’re going to be dealing with the fallout for many years to come. There was usefulness in the beginning but after two years Trudeau was actually saying that he saw further use for the digital app for allowing entrance into buildings and other access. NO THANKS, we dont need gov control over free movement and medical compliance.
Yes, I understand that it didn’t prevent us from catching it or spreading it. It did however, reduce the length of time we were sick. Which meant that since we were her primary carers, that she wasn’t without us for as long. Since it DID reduce the length of time and severity of our illness.
As far as all of the other gripes you seem to have around Covid, yes, I agree it wasn’t handled perfectly, but since we were dealing with a completely unfamiliar disease, we were working with what information was available at the time.
I don’t deny that in hindsight things could have been done better. But we should be judging the actions based on the context of the information at the time. Can we learn from the past and do better in the future? Absolutely. But I’m not going to hold every single Liberal at fault for the decisions of Trudeau.
I agree, we were working with the info at the time. But thats what was so frustrating about the continuation of the mandates when it was clear that we were past the peak of infections and the gov STILL wanted to impose NEW restrictions. I think Canadians were pretty patient for two long years but there was no reason to keep pushing us past the point of reason.
And even if Trudeau’s rationale was that he wanted to push people to get vaccinated, the name calling and the derision for those who didnt want to was completely uncalled for. The FIRST job of a PM is to keep Canadians united and feeling supported not treated like they were bad guys. That was a jerk move on his part.
But yes, lesson learned. Unfortunately the ‘lesson’ here in Alberta seems to be 'you cant make us take a vaccine we dont want which is why we have a crazy high measles outbreak. Yikes. Thats embarrassing.
Lol. She did it exceptionally well for 30 years and there are many children alive today because of her care and YOU’RE going to pass judgement on her? LOL. Oh please.
What about her employers obligation to protect HER? She was there for 30 years and she had already suffered physical damage from a previous vaccine that her employer required (SARS). To FORCE her to endanger herself further was illogical and unfair.
Don’t go into a sick field if you prone to sickness? I don’t like bridges I take tunnels figure it out. No, her comfort and what she wanted aren’t what’s best for the patients. Not that hard.
OK, I’ll bite. I read the WestJet article. The person won their case because the judge decided WestJet didn’t believe they were serious in their religious basis for their exemption request and therefore didn’t consider options to give the person work in another role that wouldn’t be impacted by their lack of vaccination.
This in no way supports your position that the mandates were somehow illegitimate.
There are more cases. You can google them. The Democracy Fund has been busy defending these people and getting their jobs back and getting their fines quashed.
I didnt say that the vaccines weren’t legitimate. I was presenting the clear fact that people were indeed forced to comply in taking them. And some lost their jobs for not doing it. And some were given ridiculous fines for not doing it. Which contradicts the statement above that no one in Canada was forced to take the vaccine. We most definitely were.
I guess it comes down to your definition of “forced”. People were forced to get the vaccine in the same way they are forced to not walk around with a gun indiscriminately firing bullets - you’re welcome to do it in the privacy of your own home (as long as your home is big enough that the bullets won’t leave it) but if you want to participate in a society then you are forced to follow some rules.
What other definition of ‘forced’ is there, other than being coerced to do something against your will? Thats the definition of forced.
This was just reported this morning by a national press gallery media: “Incomplete figures show nearly 1,600 Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew resigned, were discharged or faced discipline for defying Covid orders” Sounds pretty forced to me.
And recall what touched off the whole convoy event? The government insisted that cross border truckers, the same guys who had been praised for keeping our international trade going and supplying our stores for the previous two years were going to be FORCED to get covid vaccines. These are guys who spend all their time in a truck cab and barely interact with anyone except the guy running the forklift to load them in the US but suddenly, after two years, Trudeau decided that to “participate in society” as you put it, they needed to get vaxxed. It didnt make any sense at that point, still doesnt. Thus the spark that ignited a huge protest. We were tired of being forced to do things that no longer made sense even if they did in the beginning.
You know what the problem with your definition of forced here is? You think it means having to face any consequences at all. That’s not what forced means. Just having to face consequences doesn’t mean you were forced to do something. Consequences are the result of free will. The result of making your own decisions. It’s naive and childish to think that you should never face consequences for anything you do. Every decision you make has consequences, no one’s forcing you to face them you’re choosing to face them. It’s part of the decision. Don’t want to take the vaccine you lose your job. No one forced you to make that choice you chose to make that choice. Consequences are part of choice.
And since when is losing your means to make a living a valid consequence for refusing a vaccine? The courts have said, in most cases, that it was overreach and shouldnt have happened. Those weren’t reasonable consequences for non compliance, especially when it was accompanied by harassment and derision, some of it by our own PM. Stop drinking the koolaid.
Well if that choice is so bad for you then maybe don’t make it. That’s how choices work. I can choose to inject myself with bleach right now, I’d probably die, so I’m not going to make that choice. No one’s forcing me not to make that choice no one can stop me. That’s called consequence. It is beyond childish to think you should never face consequences for your choices. That’s not the same as being forced.
If you are given options its a choice like ‘hey we value your THIRTY YEARS of service so you can work on a different unit for now, or you can take an unpaid leave, or you can do administrative work at home til the epidemic subsides’ THAT would be a choice.
If its ‘You have to get the vaccine or we’ll fire you’, thats not a consequence, thats force’ She was most definitely FORCED to resign.
So, we’re on a boat. It starts leaking with these mysterious finger sized holes. Most people start sticking fingers in holes to stop the water, but there are a bunch of people that are worried their finger might get stuck, or a fish might come and bite it or divine intervention will save the boat - and they decide not to stick their finger in a hole, and just for good measure some of the people that won’t stick their finger in a hole go and make a few new holes. You think that’s ok? For a bunch of people to, not only not contribute to saving everyone, but actually make the situation worse? And for there to be no consequences??
At the point of the convoy, about 85% of Canadians were already vaccinated. Thats plenty for ‘herd immunity’ But the government was STILL pushing, after two solid years of vaccinations and people being isolated for even MORE measures to force people to get vaccinated. And the cracks were already beginning to show - kids were losing out on a significant amount of their education, old people in homes were suffering deep depression from not seeing family, businesses were closing and people were losing their life’s work because they had no customers, mental health issues were skyrocketing and hospitals couldnt keep up with the patient intake, drug use went from bad to epidemic levels and still is epidemic level, family relationships were not only strained but a lot of people ended relationships with friends and family over the vaccination issue. And into this hell, Trudeau comes up with the bright idea to try and force cross border truckers to get vaccinated when they barely ever left their truck cabs and interacted with almost no one in their daily duties. Even Trudeau said “over 90% of truckers are vaccinated”. Fine. Good enough, leave the rest alone.
You make it sound like those opposed to vaccines were the majority. No there were a minority who had reasons not to get it whether you agree with their reasons or not. And we should’ve been just fine with that, because they were a small minority. But instead of just leaving them alone MANY people vilified them as evil people and bad Canadians. They weren’t.
I STRONGLY prefer a few people who chose to do what they felt was right for them and their families to a government that says you WILL do what we say, WHEN we tell you to do it and you will NOT object or we will make sure you suffer consequences including losing your job and your means to make a living AND we will seize your money for protesting what we tell you. Like, what the fuck Trudeau, back the hell up!! Who made you KING?! This is Canada, not communist China. He WAY overstepped his authority and thank god he paid for it with HIS job - the truckers are just fine.
Libertarians, in general, want to reap the benefits of society without paying the costs. I don’t imagine Amazon would have grown to the size it did if there weren’t ports for the ships to dock in, roads for the trucks to drive on, an internet to advertise on, and all the rest of it, yet they feel beset upon for being asked to pay the taxes that help provide all those things.
Anti-vaxer truckers are the same, but writ small and in human form.
You seem to be wandering a little far afield here. We’re talking about Libertarians and government regulations for public health, not Libertarians and government regulation in business. And while I don’t think they’re Nazis, I still think they’re wrong, in general, and for the same reasons.
No, telling someone they will lose their job if they dont get vaccinated is not ‘forcing’. Its more like ‘gentle persuasion’ right?
Of course people were forced. There are quite a few cases in Canada where people were laid off or fined who subsequently got their jobs back after the lunacy was over and they won their case in court. The Democracy Fund has been fighting these cases all over Canada.
One example: https://www.ccpartners.ca/blog/details/the-employers-edge/2023/03/23/arbitrator-reinstates-employee-dismissed-for-just-cause-for-not-providing-proof-of-vaccination
Another: https://www.ctvnews.ca/calgary/article/former-westjet-employee-awarded-65k-for-wrongful-dismissal-over-covid-19-vaccination/
And $300,000 in fines for Amish people and liens on their property is not “forced”??: https://www.thedemocracyfund.ca/amish_community_overcomes_financial_barriers
It was only “forcing” in the same way we force people to not drink and drive.
Both the vaccine restrictions and drunk driving laws are in place for the safety of everyone around you. You are free to choose to defy those restrictions, but that doesn’t mean you are free from the consequence of that choice. Just like driving drunk could result in the loss of your license. No one was breaking down doors and literally forcing a vaccine into people. There was always a choice. But there are also consequences for choosing the option that endangers the rest of the society you are participating in.
I am totally on board with there being consequences for stupid decisions that endanger others.
Sure. But there are plenty of reasons people had for refusing the vaccine that arent stupid at all. Including my cousin who is a pediatric ICU nurse and VERY well acquainted with vaccines and how they work. She was required to take the SARS vaccine and it physically damaged her immediately, and she now has heart complications that started right after she took her shot. So when the health board said she needed to take the Covid shot she pleaded her case as her heart couldnt take more damage if it were to have the same effect. They refused to grant her an exception so she retired from nursing instead. Not sure what part of that is ‘stupid’ but there wasnt exactly a lot of understanding - Trudeau made sure the message was that anyone who didnt take the shot was ‘unCanadian’ and most likely misogynists and racists and dont believe in science. Which was actually a pretty asshole thing to say. And why he’s not only no longer PM but he’s completely disappeared off the radar because the Liberal party doesnt want to remind Canadians of his existence.
Your cousin’s case is a legitimate medical reason for an exemption and is why the rest of us need to maintain herd immunity by getting vaccinated. A bunch of guys I work with were refusing to get vaccinated just because they didn’t want to be told what to do. Guys like that are actively endangering the people who CAN’T get vaccinated, like your cousin. Herd immunity is critical in order to limit the spread of diseases and protect the people who can’t get vaccinated or who have other medical complications that put them at high risk.
Legitimate medical exemptions are fine. Deciding that you “just don’t want to” should come with consequences. My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.
You DO know that getting the shot didnt prevent anyone from carrying and transmitting covid, right? And you can still get covid even after vaccination?
The value of FORCING everyone to get the shot and isolating themselves really becomes questionable as we look at the long term effects: Mental health issues are way up. School age KIds lost two years of schooling and a lot of socialization skills. Drug use skyrocketed and we have a drug epidemic. Many seniors were severely emotionally impacted by not being able to see their families. Massive job losses particularly in the hospitality industry. Business closures. The division caused by the PM painting refusers as ‘bad Canadians’. Plus the ridiculous financial cost of the ArriveCan scam, paying for hotel rooms to isolate travellers, millions of vaccines that went unused, respirators that were bought at a premium and sold as scrap, to say nothing of the billions of dollars that were handed out with almost zero oversight MUCH of it completely wasted. Like the millions given to a QC company to build a pharmaceutical plant that never happened. And the rapid rise of inflation caused by injecting billions of dollars into the economy.
The Trudeau approach to forcing compliance cost this country A LOT and we’re going to be dealing with the fallout for many years to come. There was usefulness in the beginning but after two years Trudeau was actually saying that he saw further use for the digital app for allowing entrance into buildings and other access. NO THANKS, we dont need gov control over free movement and medical compliance.
Yes, I understand that it didn’t prevent us from catching it or spreading it. It did however, reduce the length of time we were sick. Which meant that since we were her primary carers, that she wasn’t without us for as long. Since it DID reduce the length of time and severity of our illness.
As far as all of the other gripes you seem to have around Covid, yes, I agree it wasn’t handled perfectly, but since we were dealing with a completely unfamiliar disease, we were working with what information was available at the time.
I don’t deny that in hindsight things could have been done better. But we should be judging the actions based on the context of the information at the time. Can we learn from the past and do better in the future? Absolutely. But I’m not going to hold every single Liberal at fault for the decisions of Trudeau.
I agree, we were working with the info at the time. But thats what was so frustrating about the continuation of the mandates when it was clear that we were past the peak of infections and the gov STILL wanted to impose NEW restrictions. I think Canadians were pretty patient for two long years but there was no reason to keep pushing us past the point of reason.
And even if Trudeau’s rationale was that he wanted to push people to get vaccinated, the name calling and the derision for those who didnt want to was completely uncalled for. The FIRST job of a PM is to keep Canadians united and feeling supported not treated like they were bad guys. That was a jerk move on his part.
But yes, lesson learned. Unfortunately the ‘lesson’ here in Alberta seems to be 'you cant make us take a vaccine we dont want which is why we have a crazy high measles outbreak. Yikes. Thats embarrassing.
Ya, yikes indeed. Measles is no joke. It can also cause immune amnesia, which is terrifying too.
So, she shouldn’t be working in that field. Her job is to care for others NOT get a nice retirement. Man nurse streo types real.
Lol. She did it exceptionally well for 30 years and there are many children alive today because of her care and YOU’RE going to pass judgement on her? LOL. Oh please.
It was her job which she refuses to protect others. Sorry you don’t get points for doing your job.
What about her employers obligation to protect HER? She was there for 30 years and she had already suffered physical damage from a previous vaccine that her employer required (SARS). To FORCE her to endanger herself further was illogical and unfair.
Don’t go into a sick field if you prone to sickness? I don’t like bridges I take tunnels figure it out. No, her comfort and what she wanted aren’t what’s best for the patients. Not that hard.
She wasnt ‘prone’ to sickness til the hospital forced her to get a SARS shot after nearly 20 years there. Not her fault she got sick from it.
Job requirements are a thing.
OK, I’ll bite. I read the WestJet article. The person won their case because the judge decided WestJet didn’t believe they were serious in their religious basis for their exemption request and therefore didn’t consider options to give the person work in another role that wouldn’t be impacted by their lack of vaccination.
This in no way supports your position that the mandates were somehow illegitimate.
There are more cases. You can google them. The Democracy Fund has been busy defending these people and getting their jobs back and getting their fines quashed. I didnt say that the vaccines weren’t legitimate. I was presenting the clear fact that people were indeed forced to comply in taking them. And some lost their jobs for not doing it. And some were given ridiculous fines for not doing it. Which contradicts the statement above that no one in Canada was forced to take the vaccine. We most definitely were.
I guess it comes down to your definition of “forced”. People were forced to get the vaccine in the same way they are forced to not walk around with a gun indiscriminately firing bullets - you’re welcome to do it in the privacy of your own home (as long as your home is big enough that the bullets won’t leave it) but if you want to participate in a society then you are forced to follow some rules.
What other definition of ‘forced’ is there, other than being coerced to do something against your will? Thats the definition of forced.
This was just reported this morning by a national press gallery media: “Incomplete figures show nearly 1,600 Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew resigned, were discharged or faced discipline for defying Covid orders” Sounds pretty forced to me.
And recall what touched off the whole convoy event? The government insisted that cross border truckers, the same guys who had been praised for keeping our international trade going and supplying our stores for the previous two years were going to be FORCED to get covid vaccines. These are guys who spend all their time in a truck cab and barely interact with anyone except the guy running the forklift to load them in the US but suddenly, after two years, Trudeau decided that to “participate in society” as you put it, they needed to get vaxxed. It didnt make any sense at that point, still doesnt. Thus the spark that ignited a huge protest. We were tired of being forced to do things that no longer made sense even if they did in the beginning.
You know what the problem with your definition of forced here is? You think it means having to face any consequences at all. That’s not what forced means. Just having to face consequences doesn’t mean you were forced to do something. Consequences are the result of free will. The result of making your own decisions. It’s naive and childish to think that you should never face consequences for anything you do. Every decision you make has consequences, no one’s forcing you to face them you’re choosing to face them. It’s part of the decision. Don’t want to take the vaccine you lose your job. No one forced you to make that choice you chose to make that choice. Consequences are part of choice.
And since when is losing your means to make a living a valid consequence for refusing a vaccine? The courts have said, in most cases, that it was overreach and shouldnt have happened. Those weren’t reasonable consequences for non compliance, especially when it was accompanied by harassment and derision, some of it by our own PM. Stop drinking the koolaid.
Well if that choice is so bad for you then maybe don’t make it. That’s how choices work. I can choose to inject myself with bleach right now, I’d probably die, so I’m not going to make that choice. No one’s forcing me not to make that choice no one can stop me. That’s called consequence. It is beyond childish to think you should never face consequences for your choices. That’s not the same as being forced.
If you are given options its a choice like ‘hey we value your THIRTY YEARS of service so you can work on a different unit for now, or you can take an unpaid leave, or you can do administrative work at home til the epidemic subsides’ THAT would be a choice.
If its ‘You have to get the vaccine or we’ll fire you’, thats not a consequence, thats force’ She was most definitely FORCED to resign.
So, we’re on a boat. It starts leaking with these mysterious finger sized holes. Most people start sticking fingers in holes to stop the water, but there are a bunch of people that are worried their finger might get stuck, or a fish might come and bite it or divine intervention will save the boat - and they decide not to stick their finger in a hole, and just for good measure some of the people that won’t stick their finger in a hole go and make a few new holes. You think that’s ok? For a bunch of people to, not only not contribute to saving everyone, but actually make the situation worse? And for there to be no consequences??
You’re completely missing context.
At the point of the convoy, about 85% of Canadians were already vaccinated. Thats plenty for ‘herd immunity’ But the government was STILL pushing, after two solid years of vaccinations and people being isolated for even MORE measures to force people to get vaccinated. And the cracks were already beginning to show - kids were losing out on a significant amount of their education, old people in homes were suffering deep depression from not seeing family, businesses were closing and people were losing their life’s work because they had no customers, mental health issues were skyrocketing and hospitals couldnt keep up with the patient intake, drug use went from bad to epidemic levels and still is epidemic level, family relationships were not only strained but a lot of people ended relationships with friends and family over the vaccination issue. And into this hell, Trudeau comes up with the bright idea to try and force cross border truckers to get vaccinated when they barely ever left their truck cabs and interacted with almost no one in their daily duties. Even Trudeau said “over 90% of truckers are vaccinated”. Fine. Good enough, leave the rest alone.
You make it sound like those opposed to vaccines were the majority. No there were a minority who had reasons not to get it whether you agree with their reasons or not. And we should’ve been just fine with that, because they were a small minority. But instead of just leaving them alone MANY people vilified them as evil people and bad Canadians. They weren’t.
I STRONGLY prefer a few people who chose to do what they felt was right for them and their families to a government that says you WILL do what we say, WHEN we tell you to do it and you will NOT object or we will make sure you suffer consequences including losing your job and your means to make a living AND we will seize your money for protesting what we tell you. Like, what the fuck Trudeau, back the hell up!! Who made you KING?! This is Canada, not communist China. He WAY overstepped his authority and thank god he paid for it with HIS job - the truckers are just fine.
These people can’t understand there could be differing viewpoints to their own, whether they agree with them or not.
Libertarians are basically Nazis in their eyes as ironic as that sounds.
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Libertarians, in general, want to reap the benefits of society without paying the costs. I don’t imagine Amazon would have grown to the size it did if there weren’t ports for the ships to dock in, roads for the trucks to drive on, an internet to advertise on, and all the rest of it, yet they feel beset upon for being asked to pay the taxes that help provide all those things.
Anti-vaxer truckers are the same, but writ small and in human form.
They believe government create most of the monopolies via regulation. You fan disagree but it doesn’t make them Nazis.
You seem to be wandering a little far afield here. We’re talking about Libertarians and government regulations for public health, not Libertarians and government regulation in business. And while I don’t think they’re Nazis, I still think they’re wrong, in general, and for the same reasons.
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