When this is over, we are going to have to try, convict, and hang thousands of ICE agents for crimes against humanity. They are committing capital offenses. Many of them need to hang for this.
489 cases went to trial, involving 1,672 defendants. Out of how many Nazis?
You are correct that is closer to “justice” than usually happens, but for the most part the rank and file didn’t really see the consequences that is insinuated when one learns about the Nuremberg trials.
Considering how the 1st Reconstruction got cancelled, and the Nazi elements that persist in Germany, I think that there is a great deal of evidence that mercy doesn’t work against systemic evils. The whole concept of Nazi, Confederate, and now MAGAT, ideology should go on trial…with death being the sentence if a whole class of participants are found guilty.
Worked for ICE? You die.
It isn’t kind, nor just. But this disease of evil needs to be uprooted, else it will spread into future generations of the nation. The Confederates and Nazis have proven this.
I would 10 times rather have lived in postwar Germany than in post revolution France, China, Russia…
Reconstruction is probably the one time that I know of when they were too lenient. Jefferson Davis of all people basically just walked free, and then on down. We’re still paying the price to this day for the betrayal of everything the union soldiers died for. But IDK how you can look at the history of blood thirst and lack of due process, after the revolution, and say “Yeah let’s do that I sure super want to live in that country.”
Honestly, I do not know how harsh things should be. Part of the problem, is that it isn’t clear how we convince neoconfederates from being what they are. Talk of peace, empathy, and cooperation doesn’t seem to move the needle with MAGA.
My impression, is that either they are only keyed to self-preservation in the face of extreme consequences, or simply lack the humanity to ever become better people if mercy was offered. Either way, it feels like a blunt solution is the only reliable way to remove MAGA from existence. It is my hope that by making it clear to MAGA aligned people what will happen if things go on, would make them reconsider…but if not, then at least I and others would become mentally prepared to force them to rest.
When peace isn’t a option, violence is inevitable. If that has to be the way, I know whom I prefer to be removed from the mortal coil. Hopefully, it won’t come to that. But hope isn’t reliable.
Completely agree. Democracy just can’t function if a third of the people in the country don’t want it, and just want their faction to rule by force, and that’s where we’re at right now.
All I’m saying is that postwar Germany is probably the best I am aware of out of a selection of bad historical precedents for how you recover from that situation into something approximating a stable and safe society. Organized trials with due process for anyone who killed innocent people or otherwise participated in the worst of the horrors, and acceptance of the idea that a lot of people, especially at the bottom of the org chart, just aren’t going to “get it” that anything that they did was wrong.
I think once the tribalism gets engaged firmly in people’s heads, where their faction is the one with God on its side and anyone who’s an enemy deserves to be snuffed out, you can’t really fix them from the outside. They have to either come to it themselves, or not, and in the meantime life has to move on as best it can. The problem with Germany as a precedent is that there was someone from outside to come and impose it…
There is a risk of bad outcomes, true. Unfortunately, I don’t see a good way to remove the cancer of the Confederacy.
As to what is currently happening, I suspect the blood of many innocent people will stain the soil of Florida in the coming years. They never did anything to warrant their suffering.
That is a key difference concerning ICE, Border Patrol, Trump, Thiel, and so many other willing members of the Trump Regime: they wanted people to die, just because. Offering mercy to someone who thought it was alright to send children to die in the Florida heat, they probably won’t reflect on the morality of their actions.
The reason most civilized nations have removed the death penalty is that even in modern criminal cases, at least one in five convicted persons are innocent.
If you lock someone up, there is the possibility of releasing them and providing them with an income to say sorry for taking most of their life away. If you execute them, nothing can be done to make amends - it is a final and irreversible step.
I cannot even imagine the kind of kangaroo justice that would be encouraged by attempting to go after anyone involved in this current state of affairs. If we get things wrong 20% of the time with a stable society, how well are we going to fare on establishing guilt when we’re trying to quickly process tens of thousands of stormtrooper cosplayers? Yes, they’re probably horrible, horrible people, but I think extreme repercussions should be reserved for ringleaders and people in a decision making capacity. Even then, we should stop short of killing them.
I am fairly sure the people on the ground acting out will have the rest of their lives to process the trauma they’ve inflicted on themselves, their communities and their victims - and many of them won’t be able to come to grips with it in this lifetime.
The Confederates in America got off easy, and look what their descendants have become: MAGATs. What that tells me, is that the confederates were only sorry for losing, not that they processed trauma and developed empathy.
It would be good if your path works. Unfortunately, I cannot find the faith to believe in your position.
The concentration camps of CECOT and Alligator Auschwitz shouldn’t exist. Noem Kristi making light of 65 million latino lives as alligator feed, it doesn’t inspire confidence in the humanity of whom I once considered to be American. I will hope you are right, but I cannot wager on it.
Concentration camps have existed in the US and Canada before. First for indigenous populations and then for the Japanese after Peal Harbor.
And you’re right, it’s a sore test of faith to allow people to continue to live in bigotry - and especially difficult when they are doing everything in their power to hurt you. Unfortunately short of “killing them all”, which is a path that will lead to exactly the same outcomes over time, it has to be done.
There is a reason a path of faith is considered a harder path.
They’ll just make you the Nazi\ICE\whatever. Similarly with “antisemitism”.
So better don’t.
It might feel counterintuitive, but softness and humanism work. While all this “we need to be cruel” shit doesn’t. It just allows your enemy to change coats when you’re not looking and then bring you to the guillotine.
Nah. These fuckers are openly admitting they are mass murderers reveling in the number of us they can kill. In this case alone, the only good fascist is a dead fascist, they chose to harm us, so we don’t need to go through all the rigamarole of prosecuting such dangerous people to the community. Their actions speak louder than any words they could ever say in their defense. The only good fascist is a dead fascist. Shoot, stab, and string these traitors up every chance you get.
The point of the due process is to determine that they were in fact one of these people. Due process doesn’t mean no conviction, it means no witch hunts
They don’t want to follow the rules of Habeus Corpus, then those rules don’t apply to the fascists. The rest of us want those rules, and therefore they should apply. I’m just giving them exactly what they want applied only to them.
Mate without due process you don’t know who’s getting hanged for what. ‘I saw _____(name whatever neighbor you don’t like) collaborating with ice’ becomes a death sentence . If you’re so unconcerned with hanging innocents congrats, you’re the fascist now
That is, in fact, exactly how some revolutions with good intentions turned into nightmares far worse than the evils they were revolutioning against.
If you’re going to punish someone, you need to prove they did something wrong. 100% of the time. It doesn’t matter if you “already know” and it’s frustrating to have to go through this slow process where they get to fight back. It doesn’t matter if you’re “on the right side” or whatever. That whole thinking needs to go right the fuck out the window, even if it is satisfyingly simple in the moment.
And so on. It also happened in China, the USSR, lots of places. The structures of law are fragile and slow, and just executing the person that someone accused of being a former ICE agent is easy. Until someone with a grudge accuses you, or your family…
The “reign of terror” by the jacobins was infinitely less bloody than the permament actual state of terror the ordinary people lived in during that time, but of course since ordinary people have no voice they don’t matter, it only matters when some goody noble aristocrats get hanged.
Ah yes, the real and very successful strategy of fighting fire with more fire. Let’s just go more fascist in the other direction, that’ll show em!
My dude, I get that you’re angry, but think about your ideas for a second before ejaculating them onto the Internet.
Confirming that they are actually ICE and that they did terrible things IS WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR JUSTICE. Letting people randomly accuse others and having that accusation lead to a literal hanging is not justice. If that’s not what you mean then SAY WHAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE. We are real human beings having a conversation, not competing for Internet points.
Ah yes, the real and very successful strategy of fighting fire with more fire. Let’s just go more fascist in the other direction, that’ll show em!
violence is literally the only succesful strategy to fight against oppression, getting slapped and turning your other cheek is not going to work anytime. Violence =/= fascism.
I’m with you, and I’m all for due process. However, I have some questions that I would like to ask, as you seem well grounded.
Are soldiers in a war that engage in active combat due the civil treatment of due process before they’re retaliated against?
What constitutes a soldier in this case? Uniforms? Acting against people without any expectation of due process holding them accountable? State sanctioned? I must be missing something.
Isn’t the states desire to suspend habeas corpus a tacit admission of desire for civil war against ones own peoples?
I’m a bit confused – at what point we’re supposed to defend ourselves and not rely on due process? What is the proverbial line-in-the-sand where tolerance cedes way for intolerance – especially in regards to fascism?
I think I must be missing something. Due process is great, but it doesn’t stop people from killing my family. It just holds them accountable after the fact. I’m not necessarily agreeing with the one you’re disagreeing with, I’m just wondering if your sense of tolerance will protect my loved ones from violent fascists and I’m starting to get the sense that doesn’t matter. I’m starting to get the sense that others will tell me I’m wrong for using violent means to protect myself and others from violence and I hope I’m wrong about that. Not trying to be disingenuous.
Exactly, this isn’t to find the innocent among ice, it’s to put the expected behavior of the justice system into place so that way it doesn’t have a precedent like this. If we go from one government that ignores trial tights to another we aren’t getting the rule of law, and governments don’t cede power out of the goodness of their hearts. It’s also to establish and maintain legitimacy.
The Nuremberg trials are the gold standard for a reason. The crimes were established, laid out, and the obviously guilty had the opportunity to defend themselves. This means that no legitimate historians doubt the crimes against humanity and the degree to which all 11 sentenced to execution (ten hanged, Göring killed himself after being sentenced) were responsible.
Part of why fair trials are so good is that they serve as a steel man to your right to punish. And right now that matters.
There’s a deeper debate to be had, here. I get why this guy is being down voted, but he’s making a point in a very unpalatable way. The real underlying question is ‘are those that violate social contacts due the protections of said social contracts’? How do we, as a society, correct for this? Are we still bound by the rules of a contract that another party actively violated, in regards to that party? If you answer yes, this leads to the ‘paradox of tolerance.’ How do we come to terms with that? Until we either realize this, and come to terms with this, or create an infallible system, how do we create a system that is resistant to this?
That it’s presented in the worst way possible notwithstanding.
I don’t think the privilege of the social contract applies here, because we first have to confirm that they violated the social contract. If they’re caught in the act, sure go ahead. But if we start excluding people from the social contract without knowing they are the ones who violated it, it becomes very easy to eject anyone for any reason.
Due process isn’t for the benefit of the guilty, but for the safety of the innocent accused.
“I don’t want this guy setting fire to our shared apartment building. That’s a violation of the social contract. So I’m going to set fire to our shared apartment building. That’ll show him.”
If only liberals defended communists as staunchly as they defend fascists, oh well nothing has changed. In one thread they be asking for the complete destruction of China and in another they be defending the lives of ICE.
When this is over, we are going to have to try, convict, and hang thousands of ICE agents for crimes against humanity. They are committing capital offenses. Many of them need to hang for this.
I don’t think history has ever shown that the government will prosecute agents of the law for doing what the government told them to do.
Nuremberg trials?
489 cases went to trial, involving 1,672 defendants. Out of how many Nazis?
You are correct that is closer to “justice” than usually happens, but for the most part the rank and file didn’t really see the consequences that is insinuated when one learns about the Nuremberg trials.
In fact history proved that they were rewarded for it, e.g. Adolf Heusinger.
Considering the US history handling nazis post WW2, i bet y’all gonna give them a promotion!
Skip the trying and convicting. Straight to hanging.
They’re in the wrong but the whole point is everyone should be allowed due process.
Considering how the 1st Reconstruction got cancelled, and the Nazi elements that persist in Germany, I think that there is a great deal of evidence that mercy doesn’t work against systemic evils. The whole concept of Nazi, Confederate, and now MAGAT, ideology should go on trial…with death being the sentence if a whole class of participants are found guilty.
Worked for ICE? You die.
It isn’t kind, nor just. But this disease of evil needs to be uprooted, else it will spread into future generations of the nation. The Confederates and Nazis have proven this.
I would 10 times rather have lived in postwar Germany than in post revolution France, China, Russia…
Reconstruction is probably the one time that I know of when they were too lenient. Jefferson Davis of all people basically just walked free, and then on down. We’re still paying the price to this day for the betrayal of everything the union soldiers died for. But IDK how you can look at the history of blood thirst and lack of due process, after the revolution, and say “Yeah let’s do that I sure super want to live in that country.”
Honestly, I do not know how harsh things should be. Part of the problem, is that it isn’t clear how we convince neoconfederates from being what they are. Talk of peace, empathy, and cooperation doesn’t seem to move the needle with MAGA.
My impression, is that either they are only keyed to self-preservation in the face of extreme consequences, or simply lack the humanity to ever become better people if mercy was offered. Either way, it feels like a blunt solution is the only reliable way to remove MAGA from existence. It is my hope that by making it clear to MAGA aligned people what will happen if things go on, would make them reconsider…but if not, then at least I and others would become mentally prepared to force them to rest.
When peace isn’t a option, violence is inevitable. If that has to be the way, I know whom I prefer to be removed from the mortal coil. Hopefully, it won’t come to that. But hope isn’t reliable.
This whole situation is rotten. 😞
Completely agree. Democracy just can’t function if a third of the people in the country don’t want it, and just want their faction to rule by force, and that’s where we’re at right now.
All I’m saying is that postwar Germany is probably the best I am aware of out of a selection of bad historical precedents for how you recover from that situation into something approximating a stable and safe society. Organized trials with due process for anyone who killed innocent people or otherwise participated in the worst of the horrors, and acceptance of the idea that a lot of people, especially at the bottom of the org chart, just aren’t going to “get it” that anything that they did was wrong.
I think once the tribalism gets engaged firmly in people’s heads, where their faction is the one with God on its side and anyone who’s an enemy deserves to be snuffed out, you can’t really fix them from the outside. They have to either come to it themselves, or not, and in the meantime life has to move on as best it can. The problem with Germany as a precedent is that there was someone from outside to come and impose it…
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCHeFjADTTs
There’s also a whole lot of evidence that hangings don’t work.
You are advocating for an authoritarian tyranny and a reign of terror worse than what is currently happening.
There is a risk of bad outcomes, true. Unfortunately, I don’t see a good way to remove the cancer of the Confederacy.
As to what is currently happening, I suspect the blood of many innocent people will stain the soil of Florida in the coming years. They never did anything to warrant their suffering.
That is a key difference concerning ICE, Border Patrol, Trump, Thiel, and so many other willing members of the Trump Regime: they wanted people to die, just because. Offering mercy to someone who thought it was alright to send children to die in the Florida heat, they probably won’t reflect on the morality of their actions.
At what point, does mercy become naivety?
I was given less mercy than these bastards! If it were up to me, I would be firing mustard gas cannisters at them.
It’s not a warcrime if they are terrorists.
The reason most civilized nations have removed the death penalty is that even in modern criminal cases, at least one in five convicted persons are innocent.
If you lock someone up, there is the possibility of releasing them and providing them with an income to say sorry for taking most of their life away. If you execute them, nothing can be done to make amends - it is a final and irreversible step.
I cannot even imagine the kind of kangaroo justice that would be encouraged by attempting to go after anyone involved in this current state of affairs. If we get things wrong 20% of the time with a stable society, how well are we going to fare on establishing guilt when we’re trying to quickly process tens of thousands of stormtrooper cosplayers? Yes, they’re probably horrible, horrible people, but I think extreme repercussions should be reserved for ringleaders and people in a decision making capacity. Even then, we should stop short of killing them.
I am fairly sure the people on the ground acting out will have the rest of their lives to process the trauma they’ve inflicted on themselves, their communities and their victims - and many of them won’t be able to come to grips with it in this lifetime.
The Confederates in America got off easy, and look what their descendants have become: MAGATs. What that tells me, is that the confederates were only sorry for losing, not that they processed trauma and developed empathy.
It would be good if your path works. Unfortunately, I cannot find the faith to believe in your position.
The concentration camps of CECOT and Alligator Auschwitz shouldn’t exist. Noem Kristi making light of 65 million latino lives as alligator feed, it doesn’t inspire confidence in the humanity of whom I once considered to be American. I will hope you are right, but I cannot wager on it.
Concentration camps have existed in the US and Canada before. First for indigenous populations and then for the Japanese after Peal Harbor.
And you’re right, it’s a sore test of faith to allow people to continue to live in bigotry - and especially difficult when they are doing everything in their power to hurt you. Unfortunately short of “killing them all”, which is a path that will lead to exactly the same outcomes over time, it has to be done.
There is a reason a path of faith is considered a harder path.
They’ll just make you the Nazi\ICE\whatever. Similarly with “antisemitism”.
So better don’t.
It might feel counterintuitive, but softness and humanism work. While all this “we need to be cruel” shit doesn’t. It just allows your enemy to change coats when you’re not looking and then bring you to the guillotine.
And then the reichwing president gives them all pardons.
Nah. These fuckers are openly admitting they are mass murderers reveling in the number of us they can kill. In this case alone, the only good fascist is a dead fascist, they chose to harm us, so we don’t need to go through all the rigamarole of prosecuting such dangerous people to the community. Their actions speak louder than any words they could ever say in their defense. The only good fascist is a dead fascist. Shoot, stab, and string these traitors up every chance you get.
I already am.
The point of the due process is to determine that they were in fact one of these people. Due process doesn’t mean no conviction, it means no witch hunts
They don’t want to follow the rules of Habeus Corpus, then those rules don’t apply to the fascists. The rest of us want those rules, and therefore they should apply. I’m just giving them exactly what they want applied only to them.
Mate without due process you don’t know who’s getting hanged for what. ‘I saw _____(name whatever neighbor you don’t like) collaborating with ice’ becomes a death sentence . If you’re so unconcerned with hanging innocents congrats, you’re the fascist now
That is, in fact, exactly how some revolutions with good intentions turned into nightmares far worse than the evils they were revolutioning against.
If you’re going to punish someone, you need to prove they did something wrong. 100% of the time. It doesn’t matter if you “already know” and it’s frustrating to have to go through this slow process where they get to fight back. It doesn’t matter if you’re “on the right side” or whatever. That whole thinking needs to go right the fuck out the window, even if it is satisfyingly simple in the moment.
Edit: To bring some specifics to it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_White_Terror
And so on. It also happened in China, the USSR, lots of places. The structures of law are fragile and slow, and just executing the person that someone accused of being a former ICE agent is easy. Until someone with a grudge accuses you, or your family…
The “reign of terror” by the jacobins was infinitely less bloody than the permament actual state of terror the ordinary people lived in during that time, but of course since ordinary people have no voice they don’t matter, it only matters when some goody noble aristocrats get hanged.
Ah yes, the real and very successful strategy of fighting fire with more fire. Let’s just go more fascist in the other direction, that’ll show em!
My dude, I get that you’re angry, but think about your ideas for a second before ejaculating them onto the Internet.
Confirming that they are actually ICE and that they did terrible things IS WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR JUSTICE. Letting people randomly accuse others and having that accusation lead to a literal hanging is not justice. If that’s not what you mean then SAY WHAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE. We are real human beings having a conversation, not competing for Internet points.
violence is literally the only succesful strategy to fight against oppression, getting slapped and turning your other cheek is not going to work anytime. Violence =/= fascism.
I saw AngryCommieKender working for ICE! No due process for them to make sure I didn’t make a mistake or lie, straight to hanging!
You’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter how obvious their guilt is. We still need a formal process.
We should never trust the government, or any authority, to call someone a criminal outright.
Not to mention that capital punishment is barbaric. Yes, they are acting barbaric as well, but we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
I’m with you, and I’m all for due process. However, I have some questions that I would like to ask, as you seem well grounded.
Are soldiers in a war that engage in active combat due the civil treatment of due process before they’re retaliated against?
What constitutes a soldier in this case? Uniforms? Acting against people without any expectation of due process holding them accountable? State sanctioned? I must be missing something.
Isn’t the states desire to suspend habeas corpus a tacit admission of desire for civil war against ones own peoples?
I’m a bit confused – at what point we’re supposed to defend ourselves and not rely on due process? What is the proverbial line-in-the-sand where tolerance cedes way for intolerance – especially in regards to fascism?
I think I must be missing something. Due process is great, but it doesn’t stop people from killing my family. It just holds them accountable after the fact. I’m not necessarily agreeing with the one you’re disagreeing with, I’m just wondering if your sense of tolerance will protect my loved ones from violent fascists and I’m starting to get the sense that doesn’t matter. I’m starting to get the sense that others will tell me I’m wrong for using violent means to protect myself and others from violence and I hope I’m wrong about that. Not trying to be disingenuous.
These are good questions I will have to think about more to answer.
Edit: OP lays it out pretty well. . I know you have already seen that but for anyone else reading this.
Exactly, this isn’t to find the innocent among ice, it’s to put the expected behavior of the justice system into place so that way it doesn’t have a precedent like this. If we go from one government that ignores trial tights to another we aren’t getting the rule of law, and governments don’t cede power out of the goodness of their hearts. It’s also to establish and maintain legitimacy.
The Nuremberg trials are the gold standard for a reason. The crimes were established, laid out, and the obviously guilty had the opportunity to defend themselves. This means that no legitimate historians doubt the crimes against humanity and the degree to which all 11 sentenced to execution (ten hanged, Göring killed himself after being sentenced) were responsible.
Part of why fair trials are so good is that they serve as a steel man to your right to punish. And right now that matters.
If it’s so obvious then due process should be a slam dunk.
They don’t want due process. Give them what they want.
I am so gratified to see the rate of downvotes on your nonsense, and the number of people trying to talk sense into you in addition.
There’s a deeper debate to be had, here. I get why this guy is being down voted, but he’s making a point in a very unpalatable way. The real underlying question is ‘are those that violate social contacts due the protections of said social contracts’? How do we, as a society, correct for this? Are we still bound by the rules of a contract that another party actively violated, in regards to that party? If you answer yes, this leads to the ‘paradox of tolerance.’ How do we come to terms with that? Until we either realize this, and come to terms with this, or create an infallible system, how do we create a system that is resistant to this? That it’s presented in the worst way possible notwithstanding.
I don’t think the privilege of the social contract applies here, because we first have to confirm that they violated the social contract. If they’re caught in the act, sure go ahead. But if we start excluding people from the social contract without knowing they are the ones who violated it, it becomes very easy to eject anyone for any reason.
Due process isn’t for the benefit of the guilty, but for the safety of the innocent accused.
“I don’t want this guy setting fire to our shared apartment building. That’s a violation of the social contract. So I’m going to set fire to our shared apartment building. That’ll show him.”
Fascism?
Not all authoritarianism is fascism.
No, but lack of due process and sobbing on your neighboura rings of fascism more than authoritarianism.
Fascism needs an other. In this case, agents of the former state.
Yes and you’re advocating for what they want, which makes you just as bad as them. Everyone has a right to due process, not just nice people.
If only liberals defended communists as staunchly as they defend fascists, oh well nothing has changed. In one thread they be asking for the complete destruction of China and in another they be defending the lives of ICE.
Doing that is the exact same thing ICE wants to do to American citizens.
Due process in a court of justice is the only way forward.