I don’t think the privilege of the social contract applies here, because we first have to confirm that they violated the social contract. If they’re caught in the act, sure go ahead. But if we start excluding people from the social contract without knowing they are the ones who violated it, it becomes very easy to eject anyone for any reason.
Due process isn’t for the benefit of the guilty, but for the safety of the innocent accused.
Sure, I agree, but how does this or will this function when we’re actively being denied the right to due process? That’s the point of the masks, right? Are we seriously under the illusion that justice will prevail first and foremost and someone will just hand us a list with the names and records of the secret police operating against their own people?
Don’t get me confused, better 100 criminals and one innocent walk free, vice 100 criminals and one innocent are put to justice.
I mean, we agree on this, there’s no argument here.
I guess now that I really think about it, my real issue is that people still seem to believe that this will magically happen and we just have to wait and have faith that justice will prevail and a new system will save us. I don’t believe there’s a system where what you describe – due process – is a realistic expectation until we make one, until then I’m not content believing in civilities that I’m uncertain we can afford because there’s no mandate, or right, to perform them.
Yeah, breaking from norms is always difficult, because everyone can point out all the new problems, and very few have any solutions.
Paintballs might work, giving strong leads on home location. This might be turned around on protesters though, and using a weapon near ICE is risky especially once they know why.
I’m not sure the courts could even follow through on a suite at this point though. Acting while ICE is acting might be the best method, which is just escalation. An important thing to prepare for, but is there a smarter way?
Air tags on vehicles? Reading the MAC address of cell phones and looking for them at local shops? Hacking google location data? Following agents with drones?
The bigger problem is an effective movement requires some organisation, and USers are so segregated by cars that they only socialize outside their friend circle on moderated social media. A movement of this nature would be stamped out before reaching enough eyes to begin. Non-surveillance messaging is becomming more common, but building a group is still difficult.
Excellent response and I share your sentiments. I think you’re doing more thought than most people and we need more of this. It’s difficult and nuanced, but the only sensible way. I’d just be echoing your thoughts by responding further.
I don’t think the privilege of the social contract applies here, because we first have to confirm that they violated the social contract. If they’re caught in the act, sure go ahead. But if we start excluding people from the social contract without knowing they are the ones who violated it, it becomes very easy to eject anyone for any reason.
Due process isn’t for the benefit of the guilty, but for the safety of the innocent accused.
Sure, I agree, but how does this or will this function when we’re actively being denied the right to due process? That’s the point of the masks, right? Are we seriously under the illusion that justice will prevail first and foremost and someone will just hand us a list with the names and records of the secret police operating against their own people? Don’t get me confused, better 100 criminals and one innocent walk free, vice 100 criminals and one innocent are put to justice. I mean, we agree on this, there’s no argument here.
I guess now that I really think about it, my real issue is that people still seem to believe that this will magically happen and we just have to wait and have faith that justice will prevail and a new system will save us. I don’t believe there’s a system where what you describe – due process – is a realistic expectation until we make one, until then I’m not content believing in civilities that I’m uncertain we can afford because there’s no mandate, or right, to perform them.
Yeah, breaking from norms is always difficult, because everyone can point out all the new problems, and very few have any solutions.
Paintballs might work, giving strong leads on home location. This might be turned around on protesters though, and using a weapon near ICE is risky especially once they know why.
I’m not sure the courts could even follow through on a suite at this point though. Acting while ICE is acting might be the best method, which is just escalation. An important thing to prepare for, but is there a smarter way?
Air tags on vehicles? Reading the MAC address of cell phones and looking for them at local shops? Hacking google location data? Following agents with drones?
The bigger problem is an effective movement requires some organisation, and USers are so segregated by cars that they only socialize outside their friend circle on moderated social media. A movement of this nature would be stamped out before reaching enough eyes to begin. Non-surveillance messaging is becomming more common, but building a group is still difficult.
It’s not an easy question…
Excellent response and I share your sentiments. I think you’re doing more thought than most people and we need more of this. It’s difficult and nuanced, but the only sensible way. I’d just be echoing your thoughts by responding further.