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saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
It’s a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…
I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.
Agreed. I would add to that – there’s actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It’s not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it’s an absolute cakewalk.
Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They’re solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it’s so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what’s the difference.
It’s like “The plane is having engine trouble and I don’t know if we’re going to make it. I’m real scared and upset about the situation we’re in. I know! Let’s shoot the pilot in the head.”
Wasn’t the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.
Mine owners utilized violence and essentially wage slavery to keep miners from unionizing and asking for more fair working conditions. Pinkertons got their reputation as being violent corporate mercenaries in this period, and they continue to be. The violence caused miners to fight back, and when they did the US army got involved usually in the interest of the mine owners. The lead up to the Battle of Blair Mountain is one of the best examples of this and maybe the most impactful.
It was nonviolent, until bosses/police starting shooting miners and their families, at which point it developed into a small-scale civil war. So yes, I shouldn’t have simply said blanket non violent I guess… I was just trying to draw a distinction between “let’s fight for justice for ourselves” versus “let’s storm the capital and do away with the leaders” as two roads (with the first being more effective, and the second often leading to catastrophe instead of the progress that was hoped for.)
Labor rights and the labor movement throughout history in the US have been incredibly violent so I don’t know what revisionist history you’re talking about.
You’re right, I should amend my comment to note that it wasn’t non violent and basically a small-scale civil war
Oh, hang on
(Actually, I do think I should have said it was nonviolent until they started shooting railroad workers, since that one came first. I’m a little fuzzy on the exact chronology but I think that would have been more accurate yes. The person I was responding to just said miners so I said miners.)
They would engage in retaliatory violence but the first shot was never fired by the labor organizers
I love how centrists will confidently cite the civil rights movement without a hint of irony, and then completely ignore what those civil rights leaders had to say about the objections of moderates over direct action. They’ll silently downvote a direct quote from MLK without engaging with how it somehow doesn’t apply to them.
Direct action on Gaza sounds great.
Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don’t vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn’t good enough to deserve our support?
He’s not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.
He’s addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he’s pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he’s still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn’t matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.
Biden is gentler, but he’s still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.
In case you’re unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he’s also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK’s case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation
And I haven’t even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.
They also seem to leave out the reality that without the threat of Malcom MLK would have been a lot less effective.
I know what he’s saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it’s having an impact, although it’s still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.
Later in his life Malcolm X realized much of his youthful positions on things was stupid and he retracted them.
Well said.
I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping “their brand” will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.
They don’t want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.
To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.
That pushing largely isn’t done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That’s how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.
We need another MLK and his contemporaries.
I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.
Now let me say a word for those of you who are on strike. You’ve been out now for a number of days. But don’t despair. Nothing worthwhile is gained without sacrifice. The thing for you to do is stay together. Say to everybody in this community that you’re going to stick it out to the end until every demand is met. And that you’re going to say, “We ain’t going to let nobody turn us around.” Let it be known everywhere that along with wages and all of the other securities that you are struggling for, you’re also struggling for the right to organize and be recognized…
We can all get more together than we can apart. This is the way to gain power. Power is the ability to achieve purpose. Power is the ability to effect change. We need power…
Now the other thing is that nothing is gained without pressure. Don’t let anybody tell you to go back on your job and paternalistically say, now, “You’re my man, and I’m going to do the right thing for you if you’ll just come back on the job.” Don’t go back on the job until the demands are met. Never forget that freedom is not something that must be demanded by the oppressor. It is something that must be demanded by the oppressed. Freedom is not some lavish dish that the power structure and the white forces imparted with making positions will voluntarily hand down on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.
If we are going to get equality, if we are going to get adequate wages, we are going to have to struggle for it. Now, you know what, you may have to escalate the struggle a bit. If they keep refusing, and they will not recognize the union, and will not decree further check-off for the collection of dues, I’m telling you what you ought to do, and you’re together here enough to do it. In a few days you ought to get together and just have a general work stoppage in the city of Memphis.
Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.
Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like “hurr let’s get the guillotine!”
Nor did he say “hurr it’s your duty to vote for the lesser-evil!”
Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi…
Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.
A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Fear has its use but cowardice has none.
Man lives freely only by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him.
It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one’s belly, in order to be able to save one’s head.
Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up.
If co-operation is a duty, I hold that non-co-operation also under certain conditions is equally a duty.
Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; ‘he would want me to vote for the lesser evil’?
I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let’s give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I’m a lot less sure what you’re saying.
Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?
Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?
I think u accidentally replied to the wrong comment, but im starting to really love seeing ur name come up. Very well informed on a period in time most of us only know so much.
No, he’s saying sticking with your principles is more important than even preventing your own harm. He pushed for change by being willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn’t just blindly non-violemt, he risked self injury to advance change
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day, but confidently standing your ground now is what moves the needle, not beating the drums of cooperation for Biden.
Yes, I know what Gandhi’s saying. I’m asking how you’d apply it to the present day, and you’re deflecting instead of answering.
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day
Oh sorry I must have replied to a message under the wrong meme or something; the one on my screen is different I guess.
(Edit: Also there’s this)
I keep asking you to clarify what you’re saying, and you treat it like it’s some sort of trick, and react with tactics instead of clarity. That’s a hallmark of propaganda. Just say what you mean, if you feel confident enough to stand your ground in it.
Gandhi worked with the lesser evil plenty to earn India’s independence. He negotiated with Britain on pacts and agreements that didn’t result in India’s freedom but generally gained them more autonomy and fairness. He even supported the British in WW2 and suspended independence efforts at the time.
If Gandhi said “okay hold up, let’s take care of the fascists alongside our colonizers”*, I think he would want you to vote for the lesser evil. I think we can infer from his actions that progressively achieving a goal through nonviolence is something he wholeheartedly supported.
*(Granted, he still advocated that Japan and the Nazis be defeated without significant violence)
And Douglass eventually worked with Lincoln, but not before ruthlessly criticizing him and supporting the dump-lincoln movement
Gandhi refused repeated offers from the British, he absolutely did not just accept their offer as given.
True, but the offers he did accept were not immediate independence for India. He knew when to take a good compromise and when to push for more. He continued to negotiate with the British while taking imperfect, but good deals.
Lol this is what gets me about the “get the guillotine” folks.
They think they’ll be the youth on the propaganda poster, waving the flag over the rubble of a conquered city, as if that’s realistic, or that it wouldn’t come with massive loss of life (not just in the capital class), lawlessness, and a huge power vacuum that will obviously be filled by an authoritarian (and likely a bigoted fascist).
People only seem to know the “guillotining the aristocracy” part, not the “reign of terror” part.
Or the bit about setting up systems of mutual aid so that our comrades arent killed by the dogs. Theyre here to cry against voting. Not to actually bring about a revolution and especially not keep each other alive in the event of one.
I’ve seen some people on lemmy when I first started lurking, try to claim that some of the most dystopian nations are really close to utopia and are actually trying really hard guys. I think many of them were those types of leftists.
Just get a load of the accounts that keep replying to the comments i leave. Theyre not good faith actors. Theyre paid trolls or bots. And theyve flooded this thread. This post was at 440 upvotes with 240 comments some hrs ago and as of now sits at 489 and 360 comments. That should hopefully strike one as unusual. Im willing to bet that in that time this thread was upvoted significantly more than 50 times. American leftists are being targeted to ensure we dont turn out in november.
Specifically America needs a revolution. There have been many revolutions around the world and its America that counteracts all of the wins for the people. If America had a revolution then finally we might be able to make some progress.
There’s no utopias because of America.
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I wish it was just edginess and not actual facts.
I wish my comment wasn’t removed by mods every time I call one of you people out.
All those armchair warriors that have a couple guns and say they’re ready for the revolution, but aren’t even participating in any activism besides edgelording on forums.
Sure you are, champ. Sure you are. Why don’t you instacart yourself some hot pockets and a gallon of ice cream.
If you aren’t part of at least three mutual aid groups providing mesh support in your tri-county area, I don’t wanna hear a goddamn thing about the revolution from you.
This comment reads like sarcasm, but unironically yeah. If you aren’t politically active already, you’re not going to suddenly gain the will to overthrow the government when Trump wins again.
For sure. If you want to break the chains of international capitalism, you better have a tested plan to replace those logistics networks for necessities.
I hope this doesn’t come across as insincere, but why is the tri-county part relevant? Is it just a convenient geographic grouping? Is it a metaphor?
Metaphor. I mean you should not only be supporting your own community, but involved in inter-community aid and organization if you are truly advocating for a revolution.
It blows my mind that we’re still discussing this after the German left took this approach with Hitler.
There is no “after fascists”. Fascists are the enemy that we unite against. Hitler wouldn’t have come into power if the leftists and moderates cooperated and had a healthy relationship. Even if some factions of the left/moderates want to play off fascists for power, there’s still plenty of people in the relevant group who dislike the fascists. Unite with them to take down the fascists and elements of their party who empower them.
We’ll get nowhere if we assume the entire group of leftists/moderates are fascist supporters. We need to ally.
??
There is no “after fascists”? What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware Germany is currently one of the strongest economies, one of the top political players, one of the most influential countries we have today? They also have laws specifically prohibiting denying the holocaust and disseminating Nazi propaganda, because they learned and our . They learned their lesson with fascism and now are actively fighting against it, while being a great country to live in; This is after fascists. Sure, it wasn’t the next fucking day. But it happened, which is more than can be said about the US.
So yeah, maybe sometimes the solution is to burn the country down and hope it rises from the ashes. If it does, it’ll be stronger. If it doesn’t, maybe it shouldn’t.
I don’t think hoping someone external can decimate our population in a war is the answer. Especially when the country most likely to do so would be China.
The current US military is more powerful than Hitler’s ever was, and it’s not close.
There is no “after fascists”? What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware Germany is currently one of the strongest economies, one of the top political players, one of the most influential countries…
Ok, we’ve solved it:
Step 1: Vote in fascism.
Step 2: Wait for the US, UK and Russia to destroy your country and millions of your young people.
Step 3: …
Step 4: Leftist utopia.
As long as the US provides essentially all of your military support for the next hundred years, free of charge
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it’s helping some people, and that’s important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn’t previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we’ve made someone’s life better or easier, we’ve succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren’t in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
Thats a part of practical leftism indeed! Did the legalize end even the legal persecution of LGBTQ folks? Not entirely, look at the south. But it did( force a cultural shift. Suddenly it wasnt so cool to use gay as an insult and shit on queer ppl who looked/dressed/sounded a certain way.
The LGBTQ ppl in my life have been afforded the ability to step out of the closet with less fear than before. If im to march with them, this imperfect solution is working towards my ends as well.
Solidarity, comrade, regardless where ur politics are. I want liberation even for the righty whities that profess to hate us.
I really hope the majority of leftists are like you. I’m slightly more right, as a progressive, but I hope the more combative leftists I see online are just the loud minority.
You seem like someone that I could have a fun debate with over a beer about where we differ, and you have my respect.
Thanks dude.
The combative ones seem like trolls to me. I left a comment elsewhere outlining it, but leftist spaces on reddit were once open minded and places for critical thinking, not circle jerking. Our wing is being coopted ths way the right was in 2016. Only reason i speak to the trolls is so for everyone else to see.
Lol are you really going for this “notlikeotherleftists” persona? Buddy there’s already a name for that. It’s “liberal”. You’re talking like one, acting like one and voting like one.
Never said any of that. In fact, given the fact that theres groups like the Spanish anarchists who participate in govt, what im going for is exactlyliketheotherleftists. Except u know, the actual ones who understand that building bridges is how u make anything happen.
I like to point to one of the most successful Socialist parties that ever existing in the USA: The Socialist Party of Milwaukee. They got 3 mayors elected and effected actual change.
Part of the Socialist Party’s lasting success in Milwaukee can also be attributed to their pragmatism, Gousha says. Daniel Hoan made a point to exist within a capitalist free market system, they were fiscally conservative, and they worked with other parties to accomplish their goals.
Their pragmatism drew criticism from other socialists around the country, who called Milwaukeeans “sewer socialists” for not being revolutionary enough, according to Gousha.
"As Gene Zeidler said, 'The socialists of Milwaukee took that as a badge of honor. And they said, well you may think we need to be more revolutionary but you could not be elected dog catcher and we’re winning elections,’ " Gousha notes.
Specifically Voting is the starting shot from which all other actions flow in an election cycle
Doing all the other parts is basically just aesthetic shopping if you won’t do the part that changes material conditions at the macro level
I… understand.
This is what i mean by solidarity, amigo.
I disagree, on a fundamental level, that is. Voting is, as far as im concerned, the least you can do…
Still doing it. Ill still discuss with u voting options and effecting change via the electoral method. I vote in any and all elections in which i am eligible. Right now, i dont give two shits about convincing u about direct action being more effective. If i waste my time on that, that takes time from both of us in which we could be doing something productive (like discussing with those who are more likely to be swayed why direct action is important). Much more productive use of my time with u would be discussing which candidates are most likely to make material conditions better for us all.
And above all of that, you are (more than likely, anyway) a working class comrade who is exploited for their surplus value the same way i am. Why would i want to get on ur bad side? I want change, and ur preferred method is proven, clearly. Its best for us all to foster good relationships with one another. Then, you have another reliable voter in me, and i can rest assured that by working together (in say, going after the less reliable voters) u and I are pushing our communities in the correct (read: left) direction.
I say again, solidarity, amigo!
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Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I’m going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won’t do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: “But that’s not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I’m voting 3rd party 😤”
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they’re very young and naive.
Don’t fall for it. You’ll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Oh, I’m not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I’m just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don’t often argue in good faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they’re trying to spin for the bystander audience. I’ll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that’s right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence… oof… i know… brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Great point - I don’t mean to disparage those newcomers to politics. We’ve all been there of course.
I guess I gate-kept a bit there myself, and my apologies for that.
No no no! I didn’t take it that way at all, just wanted to add the clarification i figured u left out.
I figured if u were gatekeeping against youth u wouldnt have even bothered to comment at all. Sorry if i sounded like i was putting down ur point for it, u were saying something i think we all could hear more on this platform. Esp as the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
Comments like this give me hope friend. Keep fighting the good fight :)
I feel like i dispense a lot of thank yous and encouragement to everyone else to keep it up. It feels nice to be on the receiving end so randomly. Thanks dude. Made me smile, for real <3
Aight im back to say, im rereading this thread and some of ur other comments above (about astroturfing leading the young esp) go so hard.
So me fight the good fight? You, you sir keep fighting the good fight. As in the present tense. As in u have been. Dont stop.
Solidarity to u and all other leftist speakers and activists seeking change by whichever means they know how…
Just leave some in the bank for when election season is upon us…
Aw thanks and likewise — comments like yours really help to shatter all the depression and gaslighting that gets spread and restores some semblance of sanity :)
And don’t worry about losing steam! I’m amped up for the election year and will only continue to ramp it up! I have frankly too many ideas to enhance my personal impact on the election and need to get better organized lol.
the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
if it existed, why haven’t you ever produced any evidence of it?
Bc im not wasting my time on yall. Im not going to participate in what will either turn into a gush gallop or gaslighting. Uve got it in this thread. U got it all over hexbear and .ml.
Thanks for caring enough to follow tho 🥰
a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no one should believe your claims unless you support them.
It’s a few of the astroturfers leading a bunch of the young and naive.
Fucking. Preach.
$5 say the “They should earn my vote” line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018’s #WalkAway movement.
i don’t believe you can prove anyone (not everyone, just one person) who doesn’t think biden is good enough is either right wing or “young and naive”
No but I can prove they’re short-sighted; and those two things go hand-in-hand. In my experience I’ve frankly yet to see someone older than like 22-years-old espouse such self-defeating beliefs and goals.
I can also prove that right-wing extremists engage in political astroturfing routinely and that according to investigative reporting these far-right groups intend to muddy the waters.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
can prove they’re short-sighted;
how? what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
EDIT: Observe the user below spamming multiple replies to the same comment. This is part of the gaslighting gish-gallop tactic I’ve noted. There is a user here I suspect of having many alt accounts and who frequently does this. I encourage you to report them for spam.
what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
If I may, a thing called logic.
- If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
- If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
- If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
- If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
- If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
- If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
👏👏👏
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No, but voting for Trump or helping him win by hiding behind a 3rd party candidate will advance fascism guaranteed. But please, continue astroturfing this thread with your repeating, broken argument.
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Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
this isn’t proof. it’s innuendo.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
The poster is just “go fuck yourself”
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can’t believe you’re asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don’t even care about ponies
It’s called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
For a second there, I was willing to accept you might be arguing in good faith, but the personal attack you felt the need to tack on destroyed that benefit of doubt and my willingness to continue in debate.
There was no personal attack there.
Have you ever talked to someone irl? If so, did you do it without crying?
I am arguing in good faith, obviously. There was no personal attack. I’m sure you draw some distinction between pure morals (as in trek) and “real life” but I genuinely do not see how this is defensible. I’m sure you’re a nice person
Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, “sweetie”.
Real strange way to make a point
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
“Something different” here meaning “handing over the position to the worse of the two options”.
Acting like Candidate 1 won’t do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
I’d rather stab the person trying to stab me anywhere.
You’re getting stabbed whatever happens.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
The third option is to reject the United States and replace it with something that isn’t an oligarchy
Neither.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
Do y’all just, sincerely not understand what “lesser evil” means? Yes, the lesser evil is still bad. We know. That’s what “evil” means. Both options suck, one sucks measurably more, so you choose the one that is less bad.
None of these “Both sides!” Leftists ever seem to offer specific or workable alternatives. It’s always something vague like “Have our voices be heard, take back the country from the oligarchs!” And I feel that, but like, how? What specific candidate or action is going to prevent both from winning?
Or candidate 1:
I’m going to stop helping a different pony farmer from their neighbor who’s actively killing their staff and stealing their ponies, and says they’re entitled to their neighbor’s ponies and to kill their neighbors because they can, and no one can stop them.
I’m also going to withdraw from the neighborhood watch and patrol, and defund all pony riding training, also remove individual rights to enjoy the pony-verse as you’d desire, so you can only enjoy it my way (which is predisposed to enrich me at your expense).
I also endorse other bullying neighbors to take what they want, instead of defending our sovereignty on our own pony farms. And I absolutely support the full capitalization of the pony-verse, to include up to 80% of your visual range being adds (before inducing seizures), and then* due to my sponsors’ demands I also will require you to pray to either me or Pony-Jesus only.
//
So, yeah. Let’s accept that both candidates aren’t perfect but one is a fucking monster and hates ponies.
Edit: it appears the person I replied to edited his comment to add more nuance.
My comment still stands, the nuance here is actively shooting yourself in the foot, stripping yourself of your own rights, and voting for the downfall of democracy world wide or voting for a guy that is playing by the rules and trying bolster democracy while trying to use democracy, working together with the parties you’ve been given regardless of their beliefs, to better everyone as a whole. Sure, single issue this, or single issue that. But, holy fuck you can’t both sides this. One is actively tearing down democracy, drinking and selling the Russian propaganda to their people and stripping you of your rights.
Not voting IS empowering the fascist, and that’s the point. They’re actively promoting disenfranchisement AND using propaganda to turn you away from voting for their enemy, because they know the progressive wing has the power if they unite and denounce the* lies for what they are.
/endrant
You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. “If you elect our guy, he won’t be able to do anything, but at least it’s better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he’ll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It’s safe!”
Um what?
One follows the rules, and the other often doesn’t even think there are rules. The difference there isn’t hard to suss out. It’s like that joke about playing chess with a pigeon.
I want a guy who doesn’t think there are rules, and will protect ponies. Why isn’t that a possibility
Because not thinking there are rules into adulthood is a pretty self-absorbed trait, which usually doesn’t go along with things like empathy and compassion.
There aren’t rules. Trump is proof of that
A socialist with that same attitude towards rules, norms, and civility would be the ideal option. That isn’t possible under our system. However, a fascist with those views is possible.
And the neoliberal erosion of living standards will just make the fascists more appealing to normal people. So if the fascists don’t win in 2024 then they’ll win in the near future unless we have a massive expansion of the welfare state that helps median Americans, not just the incredibly poor
You literally can’t try something different, in this election. It’s physically impossible. Leftists should be channeling this energy to the next election, and building a viable candidate that truly meets their needs.
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Don’t worry, tankies love Russia’s Legitimate Security Interests in performing genocide in Ukraine.
One literally hopped on a sock-puppet account immediately after I reported their other account for spam (several replies to each comment) and blocking his account and just continued with the same nonsense.
Commie! They’re kind of adorable, how they think their extraordinarily unique commenting style can be obfuscated by switching usernames and instances. I’ve never seen someone try so hard to have the worst possible takes on everything
Lmao they downvoted this with both of their accounts
haha I’m glad I’m not the only one who recognized Commie doing this.
please, call me commie. i’m anticapitalist.
they think their extraordinarily unique commenting style can be obfuscated by switching usernames and instances
what makes you think that?
you’re paranoid. i didn’t find it til just now. but it’s adorable you think i have TWO accounts. i took an inventory earlier and i’m over 50.
Commie! I missed arguing with you!
what makes you think that?
The fact that before interacting with you, I’d never before interacted with someone who makes separate replies for every single sentence in a comment. Also the fact that you use a similar style of writing across all your various accounts (lack of capitalization is the most apparent example in this thread)
but it’s adorable you think i have TWO accounts. i took an inventory earlier and i’m over 50.
Wow, that’s an impressive number of accounts. Why do you have those? Evading a lot of bans?
Why do you have those? Evading a lot of bans?
i am only instance wide banned on one instance, but they literally told me to just make a new account.
but the reason i accumulate accounts is because federation is still spotty, and it’s helpful to have accounts on any instance that i might want to force content to populate on, or which is not itself defederated from some other instance.
there are lots of good reasons to have multiple accounts, you know.
The fact that before interacting with you, I’d never before i…
nonono. i’m asking what makes you think that i think i’m obfuscating anything?
I’m not a prescriptivist, but my definition of “obfuscate” aligns with google here: to obfuscate means to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible. By using different usernames on different instances, you are trying to render unclear the fact that you’re actually just one user.
One for each voice in your head, is that right?
i told a friend earlier that i am thinking about changing my name to sybil
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i’m not a tankie and i never told you i’m voting for a so-called third party (though i am)
We know. We can smell your bad faith arguments a mile away.
your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith
Yoink thanks
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Sweet jesus i love it
“Anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie.” The left loves their cringe labels as much as the extreme right. Tankies, fascists, nazis, demon rats, librules, alt right, control left, it’s all the same nonsense. You morons deserve each other.
I’ll take strawman for 500, Alex.
… Or, you know, they just told me they were, ya genius.
don’t lie
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
Leftists who won’t vote are saying:
“Making a political statement is worth not only having Trump for president for the next four years, but living under a Trump for the rest of my life or fighting another world war to escape it.”
“I’m so mad at the current president for doing genocide that I’m going to stand down and tacitly support his other opponent to do genocide instead.”
Please vote. I don’t live in the US but this election is likely to impact the safety of my family.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
But both sides
Yes my butt is symmetrical with buttcheeks on both aides.
#ButtBothSides
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US “democracy.”
I can’t even tell whether to complain that it’s weird to tell me I can’t defend democracy, or that it’s weird to call “it’s bad to let the Nazis come to power” a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it’s safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I’m gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
“Not supporting the rise of Hitler is literally fascism. After Hitler, our turn!”
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
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There are those that see things drifting away from their priorities and their wants and needs. They’ve tried working within the system, but the system always makes things worse. Of course people like that will be tempted to “burn it all down” and start anew, or at least throw a wrench in the cogs and stop progress.
We should focus on convincing them that ‘progress’ is better for them - and if it isn’t, maybe we shouldn’t support it as well. Unless it is an issue of justice, then of course not letting people ‘get away with it’ is worse for those people.
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