Transwoman here,

Can’t vouch for any of the non-binary issues but for AGAB/trans(wo)man stuff, I feel like those terms are actually useful depending on context.

If I’m talking about pre-transition experiences like childhood, my AGAB matters, for some medical matters, my AGAB also come again on the table, dating (with sexual intent) knowing that I am pre-op (and even post-op I still feel like it would stay relevant), my AGAB will matter to any potential partner.

Differenciating myself as a “transwoman” rather than just a “woman” is also important in some other context (like here) as, as much as I would love to I didn’t have an AFAB childhood, education, experiences until way later in life. I didn’t share the same struggles as they do (had a whole different set, though), so in any conversation about those topics, it matters a lot.

It also means I had to learn all the “womanly stuff” very late (like make-up, walking in heels, women’s fashion…) so this is also a “please don’t judge too harshly, I just started”. I also won’t experience a lot of AFAB experiences like menstruations, pregnancy, etc… so it also matters in conversations about those topics.

It is wildly innapropriate in a lot of other context though (your AFAB hair salon example comes to mind). And in a lot of situations I am a “woman” and not a “transwoman” as the distinction is unnecessary usually.

Meh, went onto a subreddit earlier looking for advice on something, there was a thread talking about the thing and the OP asking fellow afabs for advice. And responses highlighted being afab too.

Like, fuck me then, I guess that advice isn’t for me…

Whatever, the Internet is poison anyway and everything is fucked.

So, I’m going to share my own experience here. As far as AMAB/AFAB is concerned, I only see a point in using those terms when I’m talking about, say, what things were like for me growing up. As a clarifying point more than anything. I would only use those terms to describe pre-transition, and even then I feel like they’re superfluous unless someone doesn’t know I’m trans. I think your example of “AFAB-run hair salon” would piss me off royally (and actively does). The way it’s being used in that context implies transphobia to me. But I have no problem when those terms are used by trans or nonbinary folks to describe their experiences; it’s contextual for me. I can see what you’re referring to with nonbinary folks, but since I’m not nonbinary myself, I don’t tend to bud in for things like that. They can choose to refer to themselves how they want, and I’ll go with it.

Honestly, I’ve never viewed transmasc/transfem as terms related to medical transition, and wouldn’t ever use them to imply it. Perhaps I’m uninformed on why they’re related? For me, I just break them down by their namesakes. As someone who would identify as “transfem”, it just means to me that I am a feminine trans person. Though I’d often refer to myself as a trans woman instead (or y’know, just a woman, full stop). I think that it’s more inclusive purely in the respect that “transfem” doesn’t refer only to trans women, but also to other feminine gender identities that aren’t strictly “female”. After all, gender is a spectrum, and being trans can place you anywhere on that spectrum. While I’ve never seen it used this way, I think “transfem” (and by extension “transmasc”) is irrespective of one’s AGAB (i.e. someone AFAB who identifies as a feminine gender other than “female”). But again, just my own experience and thoughts on the matter. I’ve never thought someone referring to me as transfem was indicating anything about my desire to medically transition.

TL;DR: I only like AMAB/AFAB being used by trans and/or nonbinary folks who are using it to contextually refer to their experiences growing up, but I don’t have any problem with transmasc/transfem being used.

As a trans woman I generally agree with you, especially about the amab/afab bit. Like, yes, sometimes it’s necessary information, but so often it’s used as politically correct wording to misgender. I’ve seen it used in so many contexts where I’m just like “you understand that I’ve been living as a woman full time for nearly all of my adult life and have undergone a lot of medical transition right?”

Like I don’t mind the term transfem, but ime its far more often used in conversations about transmisogyny. In that context I think it’s useful. But at the same time, I had a long period of frustration with being treated as though I’m anything less than the binary woman I am. I still don’t like it, but I don’t experience it nearly as much

IMHO any overt mention of gender outside of a relevant context is probably a political statement (or humour, but we can probably ignore that for this discussion).

There are subtleties of course, a ‘women only gym’ for example is an unfortunate necessity given the typical behaviour of my gender. It is in context.

The other layer of all this is that AGAB and “biological sex” aren’t necessarily the same thing. There’s a wide spectrum of people who were legally assigned one binary sex or another at birth that doesn’t actually describe their sex, let alone their gender.

Centering AGAB as much as we do erases intersex people in addition to being bioessentialist and reductive.

I think the idea that people were “assigned” a gender at birth is misleading anyway, it’s more of an assumption based on physical characteristics usually. So in my headcanon AGAB stands for “assumed gender at birth”. If you have to describe someone’s biological sex for medical reasons, I would tend to use biologically male/female/intersex as it’s more accurate. However for trans people HRT and surgeries and stuff can make our bodies medically different, so transfem/transmasc would be relevant info for a doctor.

In terms of gender socially, I don’t see why AGAB or biological sex would be relevant, but the gender you present as could be. Eg I’m fem nonbinary, the transfem part isn’t relevant except in a medical context or if I’m trying to find people who share my experiences.

As a non-trans guy who grew up conservative, you are absolutely correct on the terminology being a bit sinister. To adopt these terms as an identity unto themselves is only doing trans acceptance harm.

Not saying being trans is bad, but adopting an identity that advertises it in a culture that’s basically already conservative fascism is basically putting a star of david on your own arm.

I don’t mean to say trans people should hide right now or ever, but creating a culture that openly says, “trans people are different than ‘normal’ genders” is basically feeding conservative propaganda when most people do not even understand how gender identity is different than observed sex organs.

Part of being accepted by ‘normies’ is demonstrating that gender is indeed a vital, perpetual, and not connected to sex organs part of peoples’ identity. By loudly advertising new terms and spinning up subcultures that have their own terminology is just … going a different path.

That should be fine, but again, conservative fascism is on the rise world wide. They hate anyone going a different path. Now, you should be able to go your own path and not get harassed, but that’s not the world we live in.

I think I’m talking about a certain paradox of tolerance… At some point, these conservatives need to be shut down lest they make every ‘other’ identity untolerated. Though the reality that we live in is that they are presently in charge and already doing horrible things.

On an interpersonal level, I think most people just want to be accepted. Creating support groups and subcultures is good, but going out and adorning yourself with things normies do not understand and conservatives openly mock is doing less for acceptance and more for finding out where the paradox of tolerance begins…

To state all that in a hopefully succinct way… Creating acceptance takes grabbing the wheel of the cultural zeitgeist. Going a different path that does not click with the present ‘normal’ is simply deciding to not grab the wheel. So which is it that someone is shooting for? Creating acceptance for themselves and their ingroups? Or going a different path because steering culture is difficult? I don’t think anyone should have to grab the wheel, but not doing so comes with consequences. Consequences that wandering off and advertising the “bad” parts only exacerbates.

AMAB/AFAB comes to mind. I think these terms are highly inappropriate and reductive. Think “AFAB-run hair salon” (yes, this was a real thing… tell me this doesn’t give TERF energy)

However, I have noticed that a lot of nonbinary people introduce themselves in this way. (“I’m afab nonbinary” etc.) I don’t understand the logic of introducing yourself with the gender you were assigned at birth.

Okay, so… as an enby the “AFAB-run hair salon” does sound weird to me lol. If someone wants to identify as that, that’s their choice to I suppose. In regards to the other thing I have introduced myself with my AGAB but only really when that information was relevant to the topic at hand, like discussing childhood experiences or matters concerning physiology and such, I personally prefer to leave that information out if not needed, but I don’t really see it as a big deal if other people do that? I mean I know plenty of trans girls and guys who will introduce themselves as a trans guy/girl off the rip, which is basically saying your AGAB, and if they’re fine disclosing that I don’t necessarily have an issue with it

The transmasc/transfem is not something I personally dealt with a lot, so im not gonna budge in on that tho

i am nonbinary, i prefer she/her but i use transfem and/or AMAB on my dating profiles because it is very helpful to who contacts me. also, i still dont put much thought into it. my contact with people who have thought about people that have discussed this with me are all on this thread right now. so, thanks fpr the opinions. I’ll consider ceasing usage of AMAB, but i like to express to men that i am different. its only because language is slippery, and my local culture that i use these terms. i’m in the south with not that many trans folks nearby.

usually my thing is if i want to vibe then they should just respect my pronouns. if its a random person, i could care less. people that i want to date, i try to indicate that im transfem because I’ll be honest, they care a lot about whether I’m going to be “femme” in some sense and they need to know to ask about what gender affirming care ive done, and i dont find that offensive.

love to yap, thanks for introducing this topic to me!