There’s a clear campaign against the mentally ill with the global rise of fascism. Lots of it shows up in anti homeless rhetoric, but you can see it in the MAHA and anti vaccination movements.
There’s no reason to use the word “r-tarded” to describe someone. As someone who’s worked with the intellectually challenged, it’s an insult to them to compare them with people who are willfully ignorant.
Policing the hell out of language, while well intentioned, creates a backlash effect that I think actually hurts us more these days. Look at how they originally attacked “political correctness” in the 90s - because we were trying to code some improvements into language. Now people openly laugh at us for not having a solution to homelessness besides renaming them “unhoused.”
Be far easier to just let the R word become the word it has become, which doesn’t describe mental illness or disability anymore, much like “idiot” and “moron” and “imbecile” were once used as medical terms, and now they have none of that meaning.
Now people openly laugh at us for not having a solution to homelessness besides renaming them “unhoused.”
As long as one ignores all the solutions that capitalists dont like, sure. We also cant figure out why people starve while we’re at it.
Retarded isn’t a slur.
N*****, Wet****, K*ke, G**k are slurs.
These stupid wars on words IMHO is the reason why “liberals” were regarded as a joke prior to trump election
Like banning “master” in github as well as dumb, regex based words filters in chats. Oh you want to mention the “beta version”? Too bad, a social justice warrior decided that “beta” is now offensive, you have to change your language so that you wont affect the hypothetic easily offendable persons
Like banning “master” in github as well as dumb
Master wasn’t banned. The default name was changed from master to main. Literally nothing is stopping you from choosing to use master.
While this is technically correct, when you say “we’re switching the default branch name from master to main to be less culturally insensitive”, you kind of imply that people who continue using master are culturally insensitive. And nobody likes being called that (generally), so it still feels like a ban to people.
“Morally banning”. But you got my point
If you have an issue with a word then you should suggest an alternative.
I love the word retard. I care about people with intellectual disabilities. I don’t mean them when I say it.
Imo idiot should be considered just as offensive to people who want to ban the word retard. It’s pretty much got the exact same history and stigma connected to it. Although I’m sure there are some who also want to ban the word idiot.
There are a ton of people who think idiot is ableist yeah.
I mean I respect the dedication but my line is drawn before I get that far. And if me not thinking the same as them is a line for them, so be it.
Wasn’t there someone on lemmy that loves to explain this one? Something like idiot, retarded, stupid, and moron corresponding to approximate mental ‘ages’ that were used in the early 1900s?
i’m austistic and love the word retard, really don’t understand peoples need to be offended for others. it’s not remotely close to the n-word, saying “r-word” just makes you seem like a tool imo
Look we can’t call each other retards because other people will get triggered for us…
Besides every sane person knows that in common speech this is just means “extremely stupid” with no derogatory intent.
“extremely stupid” with no derogatory intent.
I think you should look up the definition of derogatory. Calling someone stupid is derogatory.
The derogatory intent is directed at the insult target, not an uninvolved group of people, is what they meant.
You should look up context clues
How else would you refer to people with below average critical thinking skills who perform actions without understanding or considering the consequences.
Please keep your answer non-derogatory.
I never said it’s wrong to call people stupid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retard_(pejorative)
For context, until the 1960s, the terms moron, idiot, cretin, and imbecile were all genuine, non-offensive terms used, including by psychiatrists, to refer to people with mental intellectual disabilities and low intelligence. These words were discontinued in that form when concerns arose that they had developed negative meanings, with “retard” and “retarded” replacing them.[6][7] After that, the terms “handicapped” (United States) and “disabled” (United Kingdom) replaced “retard” and “retarded”. Disabled is now considered a more polite term than handicapped in the United States as well.
And then in a decade or two people will have started to use the word disabled with a derogatory meaning and we can no longer use that word either.
It has already started. It will start immediately with whatever word they come up with to replace it. If someone is being particularly stupid, someone else will find the strongest word they can to insult them. This will never change.
The same with “mentally challenged”
“Special needs”
Already happening, and already being railed against. You can read a great many arguments from certain communities that decry anyone calling them disabled or handicapped.
My uncles were retarded due to Rh incompatability before they understood about Rh Factor. They called themselves retarded, our family called them that, it doesn’t sound wrong or deragotory to me.
R-tard? Is that like something about Republicans?
Don’t be stupid, retard means to reduce the rate of flow
I didn’t realize the hyphen was meant for censorship instead of conjunction
Not sure what the word ®etard has to do with people with mental challenges. I’ve always known it to be a reference to Republicans, hence the little ® next to their name.
Removed by mod
There’s no reason to use the word “r-tarded” to describe someone.
Seeing how upset it makes some people it’s very clear that it makes an excellent insult.
No you can’t insult retarded republicans, you can only listen to their insults!
A lot of slurs make people upset.
If you have to resort to slurs to insult people it just shows a lack of imagination.
The point of insults is to be insulting, not being imaginative.
This was always my issue with /murderedbywords. It was always someone saying a lot of flaff and rarely ever ‘punched’ the target. The few good ones threw out ‘creativity’ and just flat out insulted the other. Imaginative often just makes others think of you as silly, and when you’re at the point of being insulting, it’s all about feels and influencing others quickly.
I don’t particularly care one way or the other, but I know it really bothers some people, so I avoid using it. Best case scenario, I avoid making fun of a disability, worst case scenario, I had to go to all the trouble and effort of thinking of and using a synonym, such a terrible effort.
isn’t it kind of divorced from the mentally ill at this point? it just means that someone is slow, which is exactly what retardation is.
As someone who isn’t differently abled I try not to use the word. Though, it’s a shame I came up with an insult for Republicans that uses the word that I’ll never be able to use. Republicunts works instead.
Here’s the thing, the word doesn’t matter… It’s the intent. For example if I said “well aren’t you a fucking genius” and meant it sarcastically that’s just as insulting. I could also say “you gobflecker” in a aggressive tone that also bad.
An example is the old show red dwarf. The replaced every curse word with smeg. Smeg doesn’t mean anything. But in the show when one character calls another a “smeghead”. You know it’s not nice and meant to be an insult even though they never said or explained that in the show.
Banning a word won’t do anything. Ban the attitude and change people’s opinions and you can change the world. For example women, not saying they are treated well by everyone but compared to 200 years ago? Or even further back? For example there was a “treatment” for women who dared consider working. They were basically forced to bed and forced to stay there only hand few broth for 6 months. They literally just had to lay there, no talking no reading no such thing as a video. Today they are treated much better, it wasn’t by banning the world girl or bitch or vagina or anything it was by changing people’s perception.
Absolutely recommend you try this out with some slurs on people of various races and see if saying “the word doesn’t matter” stops them from beating the shit out you lol
lol, retard isnt even close to the n-word and it’s annoying as fuck when people try to compare the two.
there’s a joke (john mullaney, i think?) that goes if you got two words…and one word you won’t even say…that word is the worse word
Plenty of chuds will gladly say n****r…
What’s up my nigga got widely used without insulting anyone
The word doesn’t matter, it’s the intent.
Eh, maybe, but words communicate intent. By stigmatizing certain messaging - which can include both reserving certain words for only certain use cases and also shaming people who express bigotry regardless of what word they happen to choose - we communicate to third party observers that such views are not welcome in our society. Will it change the mind of the person using those words? Probably not, but avoiding hurtful words still has a great deal of positive social utility.
I don’t know, I don’t think the specific word is that meaningful. A new slur will likely be made for mentally disabled people, then it will get pushback and then another one will be made.
If I translated it to hindi or German or swahili it wouldn’t mean anything but if I walked up to you and yelled them at you you would probably be hurt. If I said them lovingly and softly you probably would be comforted.
The problem with having these conversations on the internet is there is no way to express that so… Maybe… I could see the point of banning potentially offensive words in text on the internet.
If I translated it to hindi or german or swahili it wouldn’t mean anything [to you]
Well, yeah. There may not be a word in those languages with the same connotations, and yeah, obviously I wouldn’t understand them if there were. But all language is contextual. We’re currently talking about english - and I’m specifically talking about United States English because that is what I speak.
Censorship wouldn’t be my choice - and in any case I believe what’s being advocated for here by the OP is social disapproval - but yeah, in the context of the internet I would refrain from using words that could hurt people when it was not my intention to hurt them.
Around strangers, coworkers, or really anyone you don’t know well a similar policy would tend to apply. Even with friends, I wouldn’t want to encourage a culture of being callous with the words I use.
There are so many other ways to express whatever sentiment you’re trying to express, why would you reach for a word that implies that some people are less than others? I’m referring to it in its use as an insult or derogatory word, of course, since technical language has its place and institutions will generally choose whatever language fits their needs. I can’t assess their situation because I’m not involved.
I think we are arguing the same thing. Don’t be mean or an asshole. Don’t look down on people. People regardless of ability should be treated as people.
Of course you shouldnt use it as an insult or derogatory word. I was totally not arguing for that. I was just saying that if you wanted to be insulting or derogatory the word itself doesn’t matter. The change to r-word doesn’t change anything. The question “are you r-worded?” should be just as offensive.
We have down this many times. Stupid, invalid, ibecil all had similar meanings and then were made offensive and a new word was made up, then that became offensive.
The word itself is meaningless, it’s the context and intent.
One thing I just thought of that I would agree with is changing it from an identifier to attribute. What I mean is a person should not “be r-word-Ed” but should be do you “have r-word-ism?” it shouldn’t define a person, but a description of an aspect is different. Like you may have the flu but your not a “fluer” or you might have epilepsy but you may also be a mechanic or pianist or physicist it’s a part but should not define you.
Of course you shouldnt use it as an insult or derogatory word. I was totally not arguing for that. I was just saying that if you wanted to be insulting or derogatory the word itself doesn’t matter. The change to r-word doesn’t change anything. The question “are you r-worded?” should be just as offensive.
[…]
The word itself is meaningless, it’s the context and intent.
This feels pointlessly pendantic. I don’t think anyone here has argued in favor of using a censored version of the word in place of an uncensored one in speech as an insult but has been talking about using it all versus not using it, so in that context, yes, the word very much matters. Choosing to use a censored version of the word is still choosing to use the word.
Well then I think we’re pretty far off topic from what the OP was talking about. Lots of people use the r word, and other similar words, as general insults or derogatory words. And that’s not OK, since it implies that it’s bad to have a condition you couldn’t control and didn’t choose.
As for clinical settings, I’m sure they have their own rules about how to talk both to and about people. I can’t speak to that, as I’m not in any of those settings.
And when in my personal life I refer to people with mental disabilities, I’m sure there are both kinder and more specific ways to describe someone’s situation.
Yeah. We’ve been down this road before. Believe it or not but all those african american navy seals with gay brothers who also were active duty military? Yeah, they were just shitty white kids who wanted to say nr and ft a lot. Who’da thunk it?
No. It is about showing the absolute bare minimum of human decency to change your vocabulary and avoid using slurs that people have to constantly hear from people who AREN’T actually african american navy seals with gay brothers and all that.
Ban the attitude and change people’s opinions and you can change the world.
And a huge chunk of that is to stop saying fucking slurs.
but compared to 200 years ago? Or even further back?
Homie… are you ACTUALLY playing the “You could be property so shut the fuck up if I want to say a slur” card?
Also, I strongly suggest anyone who thinks “history” was a no woman’s land or was all about racial purity to actually do some research. Shockingly, things were actually a LOT more “progressive” than they would expect with most bigotry and hatred being more oriented towards killing those Others across the channel. Most of the “We used to be a whole lot more racist and sexist” is, shockingly, from racist and sexist people who want to “make <insert country> great again”.
Ban the attitude and change people’s opinions and you can change the world.
And a huge chunk of that is to stop saying fucking slurs.
Thank you for this, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading some of these comments. I’m shocked how hard this is to grasp for people.
I mean… just look at elon musk.
conservatives (and, if your stance is that “I can’t change my language just because people decided it is suddenly offensive” then you are fundamentally conservative), think the pinnacle of humanity is 20-30 years ago. Generally when they were teenagers or whatever the fuck musk is doing with cultivating his entire life to be the kind of person who posts on 4chan about how LUE over on gamefaqs banned them.
And… 20 or 30 years ago the various funny people on TV were casually dropping slurs like r****d.
And then you just have the normal response to any pushback or criticism on The Internet. People spend 28 hours a day watching Content at 1.5x speed where they are constantly reinforced to their world view (or, more often, the world view of their favorite influencer…) because of The Algorithm. ANYTHING that is not telling them exactly what to do or think is met with scorn.
And when someone says something that goes against that worldview? It is “disingenuous” or “gaslighting” because it is not just a question on if they need to improve as a human being… it is actively opposed to their very existence. It is like they had been wearing red tinted glasses for years and someone said “Actually the sky is blue, not purple”.
Nope, I am not saying you could be property so shut up. I’m saying the progress we made was not based on language.
Abraham Lincoln famously said “Free those fucking n****rs”, right? Okay, actually a LOT of the politicians and white people of that era were ridiculously racist but that is why things continued to boil over until the 60s… and then continue on since then.
But yes. A huge part of things IS behavioral. And the language people use is a huge part of that. Because when someone says “Hey, that word is a slur and is hurtful” and the response is “Fuck off, I am not treating you like property so be happy with what you’ve got”… the behavior is pretty abhorrent as well.
I’m unaware of an existent group of people for whom the term “smeg” is or historically was thier actual designation?
It isn’t about not insulting someone, it’s about using language that refers to actual people who haven’t done anything wrong.
It’s like if suddenly everyone decided to call a pedophile a Vrek. You maybe wouldn’t love that suddenly people are invoking YOU to talk about pedophiles.
That’s the kind of collateral damage people are trying to avoid.
I’ve for sure said things are retarded. I’m no saint. I’ve got mixed feelings… but I think your take on the subject is poorly informed. I think you’ve missed the entire premise of the argument against using the word.
My point with smeg was that it was a made up word. But you could figure out the intent purely by context.
Again it comes to context, if you intend to hurt a person the word is meaningless.
That dude’s a fucking Vrek, goddamn.
So it seems like we are going to have to wait until impaired, challenged and disabled are turned into slurs by the overly-sensitive so removed can achieve the neutral status of idiot, dumb, stupid, moron and imbecile - words that removed used to be considered the politically correct alternative.
How hard is it to stick to idiot, dumb, stupid, moron, and imbecile?
If you think “removed” is wrong for degrading people with an actual clinical condition, except for “stupid” which seems to be something like calling that person drunk, I think you shouldn’t stick to those either, because they do the same thing.
No, they used to. Nobody cares about them anymore.
I agree entirely, you cracked the code: stop caring, and “removed” won’t be associated with the mentally impaired. People like OP, who care too much, are what keep it a slur used to degrade people with an actual clinical condition.
As someone who grew up with a very close friend with a sister who has down syndrome who really disliked people using the word as an insult I strongly disagree with you.
I think the argument is whizzing over your head too.
The logical breakdown here is pretty simple:
Argument #1 (OP): It’s probably not good to use disadvantaged groups as a slur.
Argument #2 (You and most others): Well if we do that then I don’t have words to degrade people.
These are completely orthogonal arguments, and I sincerely have sympathy for both. I genuinely do think there is communicative value in having words that illicit the intended response of calling someone’s argument “retarded”. I know what I mean. You know what I mean. It actually has nothing to do with people who are actually handicapped. It’s effective communication… it just has an unfortunate BYPRODUCT.
But not having slurs isn’t a counter-argument to the thesis that using disadvantaged groups as slurs is bad.
Strawmanning it as “PC gone mad” is just a convenient way to avoid actually addressing the concern head on.
Like, just be a fucking man: “Yeah, it probably isn’t good to use disadvantaged groups as slurs, but I’m at a loss for language that satisfies that while also effectively getting the content and TONE of my communication across, so I’m going to use it anyways. Not everythingi do is ideal.”
As soon as you abandon the ego-sheltering delusion that you don’t do things that are probably not great, you can actually think about things objectively without hitting a mental panic button the second you’re forced to evaluate a legitimate position in which your current behaviors would be evaluated as bad.
This post was probably the first time I used the word “removed” as a swear word in a long while. As I mentioned somewhere else around here, in my language it’s an actual word that means delayed, and I do prefer other swear words for the exact same reason I avoid using swear words that are rooted in sexual moralism - like judging someone for sexual behavior, even though I might not actually be doing that or even considering that person’s sexual behavior when using that word. However, if you want to use a word to describe someone as being “not-intelligent”, it is very hard to disassociate it from a group of people who actually have a clinical condition causing that, ESPECIALLY when people forcefully make that association.
The main argument here against that word seems to be that you can’t say “removed” because mentally impaired people are removed. If we were to agree that mentally impaired ≠ removed, as has already been done for all the previous words associated with them, then “removed” is not a word used to degrade them. It only becomes one if people like OP keep insisting they are removed - which is quite ironic, and we just keep repeating the euphemism treadmill cycle.
I don’t think anyone is saying that clinical language doesn’t have a use. If anything, it’s the use of these words as general-purpose insults that makes them unfit for clinical use, not the other way around.
