It seems that their imagined enemy is both too strong and too weak… Jeez, where have I heard that before?
TBF, Pete Hegseth also doesn’t want cis-women in the military.
Imagine being at war for literally over 90% of your societies existence and you don’t want half your population to have the ability to become combatants.
F tier warrior race
Got to use some populatuon to replenish the ranks.
There’s some –some—reason to not want women in front-line infantry positions. The combat load that infantry has to carry around works out to be over 100#, and it’s a struggle to get cis-men fit and strong enough to carry that, and still ruck 20+ miles at a time without collapsing. Most women are unlikely to be able to achieve that, particularly when they may weigh only 25# more than the load that they have to carry. But, IMO, as long as they can meet fitness standards, let 'em serve in the infantry if that’s what their ASVAB scores allow and it’s the MOS they want.
Give that the new rifle–XM7, I think?–weighs more than the M5, and the ammunition is heavier, that load is gonna get heavier, and people that are more in-tune with the military than I am tend to believe that we need to get the combat load lighter, by a lot.
Honestly, most of it really comes down to Pete Hegseth being sexist.
Proving that it’s all just about hate. We’re strong though, we’ve been through so much, though not many of us made it. But we can keep going and we will win. Never forget. 💙🩷🤍🩷💙
She’s the only one in that group I wouldn’t want to get into fight with.
Dude those three guys will fuck you up. They are well trained in the army, you can say that much for sure.
All three of those dudes are trying to hide their boners.
+1 for allyship
-1 for boner jokes over the age of 12
Yeah, what a wanker.
Fascism always has enemies that are simultaneously so weak that they will be easily defeated by fascist superiority … while also being terribly oppressive that it will take a great battle to overthrow the powerful enemies of fascism
I’ve heard something similar for conspiracy theories also.
NASA is at the same time an agency with enough advanced technology and resources that they were able to fool the entire world for a several-day-long broadcast of a fake moon landing, while also being too feeble and pathetic to have actually gone to the moon.
Then they snuck all the stuff they said they had on the moon to the moon before the other nations got there to look.
Well put. Also works with the classic trope of lazy but simultaneously job stealing immigrants
If you want to keep the fiction up, you need to keep imagining additional things: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RequiredSecondaryPowers.
There’s no coming back once I click on that link
“The enemy is massing their military near our border, which is a threat to us! We can defeat their military easily of course, they are disorganised and weak. But their movements are hostile and threatening to us! So we must preemptively attack them! Not because we need the element of surprise, but because we want to demonstrate our superior military tactics! This will be a quick 3-day special military operation. Because they are weak and we are strong but they are an existential threat to us.”
Bigots are too weak to participate in society. They should be banned.
Being bigoted is literally a skill issue. People with less money, status, or loved ones are more likely to hold bigoted views. Even in competitive online games higher ranks is less bigots
Fascism requires a group of others to persecute. Ideally, that group would be very small (as a percentage of the overall population) and already somewhat marginalized/“different”.
So here we are.I agree with the sentiment being discussed here, but the argument being peddled isn’t that they are too strong for sports, it’s that they are too strong for womens sports, like women are so weak and their sports are a joke. The current right wing arseholes in the US are also claiming that women shouldn’t be in the military. This nonsense is layers of bigotry deep.
You aren’t really refuting the conundrum presented by the woman. She is pointing out the same thing you are, but I feel like you’re not getting the point.
Trans women are too strong to be in women’s sports, implying they are stronger than cis women. Yet simultaneously being told they are too weak to be in the army, something that they aren’t even saying of cis women, implying that trans women are weaker than cis women.
The woman in the interview is correctly pointing out the hypocrisy here to highlight that it’s not logical, it’s just bigotry.
I feel like their hypocrisy and transphobia can be pointed out even simpler by:
“No!! You can’t be in women’s sports, because you are a man!!”
and
“No!! You can’t be in the military, because you’re not… a… man…?”It’s like how Imane Khalif is a man because she has a vagina and higher testosterone levels, but I am not a man because I have a vagina and higher testosterone levels.
When you argue with TERFs, it’s very easy to get them to contradict themselves like this. It’s not a consistent ideology - it’s “ewww yucky trans people.” Which is why we have an epidemic of alt right weirdos who are all of a sudden very committed radical feminists (despite having basically no knowledge of radical feminist theory - if you press them, they’ll claim Andrea fucking Dworkin wasn’t a radical feminist because she wasn’t a TERF!)
You can’t expect what they say to make sense. It’s the game of the alt right - they don’t believe anything they say, they just know that people have to respond to their words and not the meaning.
Yeah this sums it up well
I mean I feel like it’s pretty easy to follow what they’re saying. There is a gradient between the 2 points. It’s not an on/off switch, it’s not binary. It’s why fascist logic is bullshit to begin with.
I don’t think anyone is saying women’s sports are a joke or that they are weak. There are undeniable differences in some sports between the top performers that correlate with gender. Hence for fair competition the genders of many sports are kept separate.
If someone is saying trans people are too strong for womens sport but too weak for the military then their opinions on women are pretty clear.
Are they? I don’t know that anything about that statement is very clear at all other than whomever said it is pretty hardcore retarded.
I see you excel at logic and have a great set of morals. Keep at it bud.
*transpeople shouldn’t be in the military.
Most people who require medication aren’t allowed in the military. It makes logistics so much harder. This goes for those with severe allergies, diabetes, or any number of issues. There’s a reason why MREs are super shelf stable, why most small arms use the same 5.56 round, why everything uses diesel, etc, etc. It’s all to make logistics easier and better.
Hormones fall under the same category. What happens when a transman stops taking testosterone? What happens when a transwoman stops taking estrogen? The first thing a good enemy will do is cut off the logistics chain, and that would cripple anyone who needs meds.
Trans people stop taking hormones all of the time. There was recently a recall of testosterone gel due to contamination - there are definitely guys going without at this current moment.
It’s not like you have to keep taking hormones to keep being trans. If you are a trans guy and go off for a while, your periods might come back, which sucks. Over long periods of time, you’d have your fat and muscle redistribute.
It’s not like missing a shot or a pill kills you. I feel like garbage if I’m off, but I still function.
Lol, I’m currently active duty and prescribed four different daily medications for long term issues. None of this is disqualifying or prevents me from deploying. This is a complete non-issue outside of a FOB
Did you get waivers?
You could maybe make an argument that people on medication shouldn’t be sent behind enemy lines. But you realize that’s a tiny fraction of servicemembers, right? Most servicemembers are stationed within the country, and many more are stationed at bases in allied nations, where supply chain isn’t at risk.
And… if there is a supply chain issue, they’ve got bigger problems, like food?
Most people who require medication aren’t allowed in the military
Source. That’s absolute horseshit. A source is a valid requirement here. It 100% depends on what’s needed.
That is a list of disqualifying conditions. That doesn’t support what you said.
Where is “most”? Where is any metric?
What do a lot of those conditions have in common? Required daily medication.
Testosterone is often a once every other week, or once a week shot. Some people have pellets, which are implanted under the skin and last for months.
And again, it’s not “required.” There are trans people who never even take hormones.
Dude people with disabilities can serve ffs.
He doesn’t care, dude is a straight up fascist.
He loves getting into arguments over minutue because it gives his ideas the legitimacy of being taken seriously.
He really just needs to fuck off back into the sewer with the rest of the scummy losers.
What happens? One thing that DOESN’T happen is that they would be unable to fight. Transmen might slowly lose some musculature, but they’d still perform about the same in combat, certainly for awhile. Transwomen might actually bulk up. And all of them would have an extra level of rage at the enemy to tap into. Your whole point is bogus.
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No, no, I’m not going to be strict with definitions when they are not. This is what they said. They don’t care about “women’s sports”. they care about transwomen in sports. I will be as specific as they are, they don’t deserve to have their points clarified for them.
“Low Bar” fuck off. Transpeople are being attacked for existing. The bar is in hell. Being a devil’s advocate is just that, advocating for the devil.
are women not allowed to join the military?
They are kicking transwomen out of the military.
im aware. the comment im responding to says that transwomen arent allowed in the military because theyre too weak for the military but too strong for womens sports.
i was asking if cis women are allowed in the military.
Because of their reliance on regular treatment of estrogen / testosterone. You cannot be in the military and need most daily medication already.
they seemed fine with it before now
Transwomen, or men, appear to be strong when they compete against females.
In the military, they’re non deployable if they have to take their hormones. Depending on the regulations, it’s been awhile since I was in. Especially if they’re unable to conform to military life , because the military definitely shouldn’t conform to them, especially if it’s about life and death in the field. …
If people can’t join because they’re mentally unstable, then why should someone with gender dysphoria be able to enlist? Would it be a distraction to the unit? I know for a fact the infantry wouldn’t be a good fit for them, and they shouldn’t force combat arms to accept them, given their responsibilities.
You may say, “fuck their responsibilities”, but those are the civilians who don’t have the intestinal fortitude to enlist, or the soldiers who don’t deploy to combat situations.
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Your argument works if they do not allow any women into the military, which I believe is not the case.
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I generally haven’t kept up with the military since I got out, but women in “combat arms” MOSs were strictly forbidden, like infantry and artillery. Are you asserting that is no longer the case for the US or other militaries?
… that hasn’t been the case since Obama’s second term.
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
https://newsroom.uw.edu/blog/expert-science-wont-resolve-debates-about-trans-athletes
Here are a few sources talking about why that is not really grounded in science, it’s a nuanced issue and depending on the sport and the level of hormone therapy a trans person has gone through because that can determine things that you wouldn’t expect like muscle mass and even bone density/length. On top of that some cis women have naturally more testosterone than average, and we’re seeing some biological women’s eligibility in sports be questioned because of this trans panic. The answer is: it’s just not that simple. Hormones and chromosomes aren’t constant across biological males and females and they aren’t they aren’t a good basis for allowing/preventing certain people to play certain sports.
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This is a stupid argument. Trans women are not too strong for sport, but too strong for women’s sport.
What’s the point of segregating sports by gender?
If it’s a matter of performance then they can break sports into performance classes, no gender segregation needed.
If it’s a matter of fairness and making space for women in sports, then trans women deserve not to have to play with the boys just like any other woman.
I don’t actually know the real effect of stuff like testosterone in high level sports, but if it’s significant, one could argue there should be two or maybe more categories for different amounts, and a category with no limits. Kinda like weight classes in fighting sports but with hormones.
Cis women have testosterone too, and gender testing might exclude them from women’s sports just like trans women if they have too much.
Also, most trans women are specifically blocking testosterone, and often have significantly lower levels than cis women.
Yeah but if it’s that important to the muscles/effort thing it probably should be the determining factor to segregate athletes in performance-based categories instead of their biological or physical gender
Or, how about we stop trying to protect mens’ fragile feelings from being beaten by girls and quit pretending that we can segregate our way to competetive fairness?
I mean, sure. You’re acting like this is all my fault when I’m just trying to look at this critically. Do you know how little I actually care about competitive sports?
Is whats being proposed AFAIK but seems it will take a time to catch on. All the while this fuckers keep on doing the same transphobic shit.
What’s the point of degregating sports by gender?
Because men outclass women in almost any physical ability, be it strength, speed or endurance. Just look at world records.
If it’s a matter of performance then they can break sports into performance classes
Ah yes, let’s make sport less accessible by introducing arbitrary limitations. Do we have basketball up to 1.60m height, then up to 1.70m height, then up to 1.80m height and so on? And do we introduce different tiers within those tiers by only having people up to 1.70m and 60kg, then 1.70 and 70kg …
You CANT split sport into “performance classes”, at least not in a way where it would help - men would on average still be in the higher “performance class” and nothing would change.
If it’s a matter of fairness and making space for women in sports, then trans women deserve not to have to play with the boys just like any other woman.
I know you probably don’t want to hear that, but biologically, trans women aren’t women. They are still physically superior to cis women. That’s why we prefix them with “trans”. Even after extensive hormone therapy, trans women still have some advantages over cis women.
Nobody has a problem with trans women in non-physical sports. Nobody would bat an eye if there was a trans women in chess. Nobody would care if there was a trans woman in e-sports (we actually had one years ago in league if I remember correctly). But we can’t just abandon fairness for cis women in sport because we want to appease a small number of trans women, and on a physical level (especially before hormone therapy), they still do have an advantage.
You CANT split sport into “performance classes”, at least not in a way where it would help - men would on average still be in the higher “performance class” and nothing would change.
Don’t we already? In high school you have freshmen, jv, and varsity sports. There’s recreational, amateur, and professional leagues in about every sport. There’s weight classes in wrestling and boxing. Just to name a few examples of where we have no problem breaking sport into performance classes.
Because men outclass women in almost any physical ability
I have never heard this argument come out of someone who doesn’t look like a wet noodle could outclass them in physical ability. It’s always a keyboard warrior who hasn’t cooked a meal since the Kraft Mac he made in 9th grade when his parents left him alone one evening and wouldn’t know what the inside of a gym looks like if it weren’t in GTA.
Motherfucker, I knew plenty of cis women who could easily out-class me in physical abilities and I was in the US military
The only people who care what’s in the pants of the enlisted person beside them are pieces of shit who don’t deserve to be there. Focus on your fucking job, and stop fantasizing about their crotch.
Not once did I ever wonder what a person was assigned at birth while I was in. They wouldn’t be there if they couldn’t physically do it.
Nobody is lowering qualifications of military personnel because the individual is trans.
I have never heard this argument come out of someone who doesn’t look like a wet noodle could outclass them in physical ability
Oh dw about that, I do go to the gym more regularly since covid.
It’s always a keyboard warrior who hasn’t cooked a meal since the Kraft Mac he made in 9th grade when his parents left him alone one evening and wouldn’t know what the inside of a gym looks like if it weren’t in GTA.
Oh, you also don’t have to worry about that. I do cook regularly for me and my girlfriend, and mostly healthy stuff, apart from the occasional cream sauce.
Motherfucker, I knew plenty of cis women who could easily out-class me in physical abilities and I was in the US military
Okay, very cool. Doesn’t change the fact that men - on average - are physically superior. I also know a few women that could fuck me up, but I know WAY more women that I could fuck up.
The only people who care what’s in the pants of the enlisted person beside them are pieces of shit who don’t deserve to be there. Focus on your fucking job, and stop fantasizing about their crotch. Not once did I ever wonder what a person was assigned at birth while I was in. They wouldn’t be there if they couldn’t physically do it. Nobody is lowering qualifications of military personnel because the individual is trans.
You seem to misunderstand me. I never said trans people should not be allowed in the military. I was only arguing against transpeople in SPORTS. Military, the gender should not matter - while I do still think that women are - on average - weaker than men, that should not bar them from serving, because it’s not a competition about who’s the best, unlike in sports.
If sports are about competing to find out who’s the best, then what’s the point of segregating sports by gender?
Ah yes, let’s make sport less accessible by introducing arbitrary limitations.
Where did I suggest that? Are you sure you aren’t hallucinating? Aren’t you the one demanding an arbitrary limitation on what sort of women are allowed to compete?
Do we have basketball up to 1.60m height, then up to 1.70m height, then up to 1.80m height and so on? And do we introduce different tiers within those tiers by only having people up to 1.70m and 60kg, then 1.70 and 70kg …
I said “performance classes” not “height and weight classes”.
You CANT split sport into “performance classes”, at least not in a way where it would help - men would on average still be in the higher “performance class” and nothing would change.
Why not? Explain your reasoning for why women wouldn’t perform to roughly the same level as everyone else in their performance class. Bonus points if you can manage to avoid sexism or classism in your explanation.
I know you probably don’t want to hear that, but biologically, trans women aren’t women.
I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but the biological differences between cis and trans people are irrelevant. Sports were only segregated because men’s precious feelings get hurt when they are bested by women. Forcing trans women to compete against men will cause men to lose to people they don’t recognize as men and thereby create more problems than were solved.
Nobody has a problem with trans women in non-physical sports. Nobody would bat an eye if there was a trans women in chess.
Wow…
You should have just admitted you have no idea what you’re talking about. Bans on trans women in chess have been a multi-year scandal for the International Chess Federation.
But we can’t just abandon fairness for cis women in sport because we want to appease a small number of trans women, and on a physical level (especially before hormone therapy), they still do have an advantage.
Because abandoning fairness to enforce gender testing that will primarily harm cis women by excluding them from competition for having too much natural testosterone like Caster Semenya is better, right?
Explain your reasoning for why women wouldn’t perform to roughly the same level as everyone else in their performance class.
Because the entire concept of “performance class” is absolutely stupid. I don’t even know how to argue against it because the entire concept is dumb. Sport is about competition, who is the best etc. Your performance class bullshit would kill that off.
I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but the biological differences between cis and trans people are irrelevant. Sports were only segregated because men’s precious feelings get hurt when they are bested by women. Forcing trans women to compete against men will cause men to lose to people they don’t recognize as men and thereby create more problems than were solved.
Actually, sports were segregated because the average women can’t compete with the average man, and a single look into the guiness book of world records would show you that. However, if that’s your world view, I’m sorry, no point in arguing. I’ll still answer the rest, but that’s probably the last thing I’ll answer from you.
Bans on trans women in chess have been a multi-year scandal for the International Chess Federation.
I am well aware of that, but it shouldn’t be. Chess is about intellect, not physical prowess, and women are absolutely on the same level as men.
When did they start segregating e-sports? Last I checked, the big tournaments were all mixed.
They don’t … because physical prowess is irrelevant.
Because abandoning fairness to enforce gender testing that will primarily harm cis women by excluding them from competition for having too much natural testostetone like Caster Semenya is better, right?
Caster Semenya has a condition causing her to have much higher testosterone levels than other women. That has nothing to do with trans people. I do agree that excluding her because of this is unfair.
Anyways, as I’ve stated above, that’s the last thing I’ll answer as you don’t have any arguments, just feelings and “men bad”. Have a good one!
Because the entire concept of “performance class” is absolutely stupid.
That doesn’t disprove my point, but it does prove that you don’t have the patience for a civilized argument.
I don’t even know how to argue against it because the entire concept is dumb. Sport is about competition, who is the best etc. Your performance class bullshit would kill that off.
Be sure you tell all the E-Sports people and professional sports players that you think ranked competition is “dumb”, lol~. Sounds like you want to mix the amateur and professional leagues too, right?
Actually, sports were segregated because the average women can’t compete with the average man
If that were the case, sports would have always been segregated.
Here in reality, professional baseball was only segregated after Jackie Mitchell struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig at an exhibition game in April 1932. Her contract was voided by the league’s commissioner the next day.
The idea that women can’t compete with men is a myth that was manufactured to defend fragile male egos.
Caster Semenya has a condition causing her to have much higher testosterone levels than other women. That has nothing to do with trans people. I do agree that excluding her because of this is unfair.
Let me get this straight, you think that a cis woman who was excluded from sports for high testosterone doesn’t have anything to do with the trans women who you want to exclude from sports for having testosterone?
My dude, you’re the one demanding the sort of gender testing that resulted in what you yourself acknowledge is unfair exclusion.
The difference is smaller than you might think
Abstract Objective: To examine the effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance among transwomen and transmen.
Methods: We reviewed fitness test results and medical records of 29 transmen and 46 transwomen who started gender affirming hormones while in the United States Air Force. We compared pre- and post-hormone fitness test results of the transwomen and transmen with the average performance of all women and men under the age of 30 in the Air Force between 2004 and 2014. We also measured the rate of hormone associated changes in body composition and athletic performance.
Results: Participants were 26.2 years old (SD 5.5). Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.
Summary: The 15-31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.
but transwomen were still 12% faster.
That’s a massive difference in even amateur sports let alone elite level. That contradicts your point rather than support it.
What? We can use science and data to look at the impacts empirically instead of throwing baseless speculations around???
Who knew?
Yes, that’s why I said that many sports have introduced a hormone therapy “minimum”, so to speak. Which is fine I guess, depending on the sport. This has to be individually tested.
But allowing trans women into sport without any extensive hormone therapy is straightup unfair.
