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The supposed democracy advocates within the democratic party continue to refuse to fix the First-past-the-post voting system.
Dont worry, you can count on them to point out all the flaws of the voting system during the midterm while doing nothing to fix it before or afterwards.
Trump was inevitable under such conditions. If you capture one (or more) political parties in a two party system, clearly you can undo every single check and balance. Wake up blue MAGA, your continued use of the FPTP crutch is a national security threat and will cause the nation to crumble.
Was it worth it keeping those safe blue states? Was it worth the easy elections against the worst of us all?
America last, party over country at all costs.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
So much focus on the lever that nobody is trying to derail or cut power to the trolly
This thread is being targeted by a lot of no-content “correct the record” fediverse accounts, upvoting pro-genocide US democratic party and Israeli talking points. Please report them so we can ban them ASAP.
Thank you to all the posters below doing great work debunking them.
Your opinion is not shared by all, which should be obvious.
I’m here for the comments 🍿
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Which one is which?
Yeah democrats really care about the poor.
And they totally wouldn’t increase the ICE budget, and deportations.
edit: By the way, you might want want to be a little less transparent with vote manipulation. I just banned 3 of your no-content alts.
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Hey, NATO shill, why aren’t you fighting in Ukraine? I bet there’s a conscript there that would love to change places with your chickenhawk ass.
“Let me mention a few negligeable differences like crypto and ignore all the blatant similarities which actually matter”
Those are small differences to you? Wow.
Anyway, this infighting is exactly what the shit-ass gop wants. Nice.
You advocating that people should vote for the duopoly is exactly what the duopoly wants.
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A genocide is not when Russia kills mostly soldiers. War crimes sure, but not everything is genocide.
Also long range missiles are not “defensive weapons”
She has her own list of atrocities to account for, but most importantly, she’s pro-israel, and pro-genocide.
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The Trump term has literally seen a truce to the genocide in Palestine. This isn’t an endorsement of Trump, he’s a fascist piece of shit, but to those constantly bickering about genocide being worse under Trump, where are you now?!
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“Genocide in Ukraine” imagine believing this 🤡
The War there is only noteworthy regarding its LOW number of civilian casualties. If you want to look at genocides look at Gaza, look at Sudan, look at Yemen.
And you’re upset because you wanted it to be Harris continuing to pretend there’s no way to stop shipping weapons to Israel, or . . . .?
No one actually believes he ended the war
There is no war, there is an ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the settler colony of Israel.
And yes, the genocide very much didn’t end unfortunately, and it won’t end until Isntreal is driven out of the region. But it has been ameliorated. By all accounts, dem supporters constantly were ranting about how “not voting for Kamala worsens the genocide”, and this is, factually, not what we’re seeing.
Trump has purposefully made the genocide in Ukraine far worse
There isn’t genocide in Ukraine, there is an inter-imperialist war going on in Ukraine. Using the label “genocide” to every conflict is very harmful to people like Palestinians who are actively being starved en-masse and kept out of reach of basic medicine, healthcare and even fucking drinking water.
There isn’t genocide in Ukraine
When Russia started relocating Ukrainian children into Russian families, that made it a coordinated effort to eliminate a people, which makes it a genocide.
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Some of the countries that have officially labeled Russia’s brutal invasion as a genocide include [list of geopolitical enemies of Russia]
France can’t even fucking recognize the state of Palestine until like a week ago, and now they’re authorities in genocide? Fuck them.
As for your points list:
#1 goes mostly from claims by the Ukrainian government. It is true that Russia has extracted children from the warzone and it is true that in some cases these children have been sent to adoptive families in Russia, which I heavily condemn, but it’s not a generalized thing and most confirmed extracted children have been returned eventually. The official numbers by the Ukrainian government aren’t confirmed by any investigative journalism and the invaded Ukrainian state has obvious motivations to claim abduction of Ukrainian children and violations of human rights. The Russian government makes similar claims of forced de-Russification of ethnic Russians in Donbas to justify its invasion of Ukraine, which I hope you don’t take seriously because it’s obviously state propaganda.
#2 A statement doesn’t make a genocide.
#3 Civilian deaths in the Ukrainian war, by any metric you want to use, are contained compared to any imperialist war carried out by the west. Civilian death ratio in the unlawful and horrifying invasion of Iraq was comparably much higher and it wasn’t a genocide in my opinion (probably not in yours either). However horrifying the invasion of Ukraine is, it responds to patterns of war between nations, not of genocide attempts against a population.
#4 Isolated instances of war crimes don’t imply a generalized intent to massacre civilians of a given ethnicity. War crimes are horrible and the perpetrators should be brought to justice, but again, the scale you bring of “hundreds” doesn’t respond to genocidal goals. Massacres of civilians take place in many wars (see Vietnam, Libya…) and are war crimes, but not every war crime is genocide.
Please, do not dillute the meaning of the word “genocide”. It’s meant to carry an extremely heavy connotation of attempt of total extermination of an ethnicity and culture, and throwing it around lightly is an injury to people suffering from it.
With democrats at the (wheel?). Its the same trolley, the same track and the same people on it.
But they mostly abide by a legal speed limit and in general go much slower.
Sometimes they get to a full stopt and get out to clear some people manually to get back going.
The gop sees this and cries out that these slow speed limits are the problem. Go fast, get there quicker.
Neither party wants to talk seriously about where we’re going.
Neither wants to stop.
Shit none of them talk about where theyre at. The bleeding edge of late stage capitalism.
in general go much slower
Tell that to Palestinians, the truce has been implemented famously not during democrat rule.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce.
Also Trump does not care one bit about what happens in reality as long as he believes that people believe him to be successful. Towards BN he is nothing but a useful fool.
Most media channels are happy to stop reporting about this cause it was getting old but the war and famine are going on unchanged.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce
So an amelioration of genocide is insufficient to you? Good, it’s insufficient to me too, that’s why I suggest voting against democrats too
Can you explain you reasoning because It just sounds like you fell for hypernormalization big time.
Just to make things clear. The Genocide is still ongoing. Trump won last time and the biggest difference it made is a classic trick got deployed to manage public perception of what the media thinks is going on.
I repeat voting against democracts does not remove any of the issues, we are just more Frequently gaslighted against forming resistanc under Trump
The best strategy to move away from capitalism with the least bloodshed is to have people need to vote democrat during elections and then instantaneously organize mass protest against them after they win.
How are we more gaslighted against resistance with Trump? People are mobilizing in much higher numbers now, and they were quite literally shutting their ears during the Kamala campaign not to hear the names of genocide victims.
Lol, didn’t the news report that israël didn’t even try to stop killing gazan ?
By all metrics, the genocide has slowed down in scope. It’s obviously insufficient and the genocide truly won’t be over until the settler colonial entity is driven out of the region, but what we are seeing isn’t a worsening of the genocide due to Trump as libs predicted.
Come back down to planet earth my man.
What are you talking about? How is the genocide under Trump any worse than it was during Democrats??
Yep. C’mon back down.
I for one am able to sum the accumulated damage between the two choices. Sucks not being able to think systemically I guess.
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¨Between 2009 and 2016, the Barack Obama administration oversaw the deporting of a record 2.4 million undocumented immigrants who had entered the United States, earning him the nickname “Deporter-In-Chief” by Janet Murguía, the president of National Council of La Raza. According to ICE data, about 40% of those deported by ICE in 2015 had no criminal conviction, while a majority of those convicted were guilty of minor charges. Statistics of record deportations were partly due to a change in how deportations were counted that began during the Bush administration and continued under the Obama administration.¨.
Guys you need to understand that Americans are only capable to see what is front of them. If happens in front of them is nasty stuff but if is under the radar? Is alright (Unless is a evil foreign country, they don’t need to see anything to believe they are evil)
Hey blue fascist, who built the camps?
Yes.
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Well I voted for it to be green
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You don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself
Karl Marx said:
The relationship of the revolutionary workers’ party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists. America doesn’t have ranked choice voting, but voting socialist in the primaries and left (out of the two candidates presented) in the generals is the closest approximation. This is the Karl Marx approved strategy, as you can see from his speech to the Communist League.
Now let’s talk about this meme. It’s fake news. There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats. Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats. I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news. And if anyone replies to this comment and says well 1% isn’t good enough, I’m going to accuse you of moving the goalposts, because this meme says colour is the only difference. The meme doesn’t say 1% less people get run over by the trolley, and I think there are at least 1% fewer state caused deaths under the Democrats.
No, you vote in a way that gives you power. Voting blue no matter who loses power. See 2020.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists.
The democrats are also funding this genocide:
There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats.
The democrats expanded these immigrant prison camps. Some stats from the Obama era:
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
- In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 500 prison camps, holding over 34,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. After the creation of DHS and ICE, the budget for immigration enforcement doubled from $6.2 billion in 2002 to $12.5 billion in 2006 under Obama. 1, 2,3
Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats.
The democrats didn’t close their torture camp in Cuba either.
If you go to university and do any kind of field that involves essay writing, you’ll learn to use a thesis statement to summarise your argument so people know what you’re arguing for. You’ve provided some evidence, but it’s entirely unclear what your position is in this conversation other than “the democrats do bad things sometimes”. If your entire position is “the democrats do bad things sometimes”, then great job! We’re all very proud of you for proving the democrats do bad things sometimes. Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Leaving this comment up to show the titanic levels of entitlement and arrogance from the anti-communist crowd.
Even open source devs only exist to do free labor for them, we’re not people to them.
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
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They aren’t fascists, yet they’re committing a genocide:
Democrats: against every genocide except the current one.
The world cares about what they do to other nations, not to themselves. Crazy gun policies? Slave labour in prisons? Your problem. Military expansionism, cripling sanctions, instigating chaos abroad? Very much our problem. That did not change.
I don’t give a shit about " bankrupting the US!". It literally prints it’s own money. But I sure as shit do remember Democrats going full fascist and participating in the modern Holocaust.
democrats are no saints.
By which you mean they’re genocidal monsters.
They just do nothing to stop the fascists when they have power and do everything they can to compromise with them.
If there’s one lesson to be learned this year, it’s that politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism.
What’s the actual difference? You end up at the same place with either one.
This feels like trying to explain to someone that you can have 2 different infinities, and one is larger than the other. Both are bad, but one is clearly worse.
“What’s the difference if you end up at the same place?”
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide. It is reasonable to criticize the people supporting a genocide while at the same time recognizing that the people wanting more genocides are not the same.
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide.
You are already a fascist. You have already approved the genocide of a nation for the sake of what? Saving minorities in America? Guess what you will send them straight to the furnace the moment they become “expedient” to sacrifice for your own gain.
The first they came for poem comes to mind.
The only real difference is that there are consequences for you at home in the US and that’s the only part you actually care about
I don’t live in the US, there are no consequences for me as a result of Trump being president. Significantly more people are being harmed under Trump and I actually give a shit about other people instead of putting some idealized moral high ground above actual human lives.
Zero genocide isn’t an idealised moral high ground and it’s incredibly telling to see someone excuse it.
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide.
How do you find yourself typing something like this and not pause for thought?
What’s worse than genocide?
2 genocides.
I don’t know how to make this any more clear.
Hell yeah brother. Personally I think Hitler was fucking great and would vote for him in a heartbeat if it meant stopping Himmler from being in charge. /s
Says who? Yeah, the Dems are filthy neolibs, but all they really care about is money and influence. They’re rainbow capitalists.
The other is literally based on hate and fear, they might actually care about building a christo-nationalist ethnostate more than money.
They certainly have some goals in common, but even compromise isn’t going to the same place.
but all they really care about is money and influence.
Correct.
That is why they maintain American imperialism.
Such as funding a genocide in the middle east.
Exactly. They fund genocide because it’s politically expedient. The opposition funds genocide because they love killing brown people
It’s conceivable to convince one side that genocide is no longer politically favorable. You’re never going to convince the other side to stop wanting to kill brown people. There is no third option with prospects to win.
You cannot convince the rich and powerful that it’s politically unfavourable when it’s economically favourable to do genocide.
They don’t care about what people want. They care about what they want, and that’s US imperialism.
They’re rainbow capitalists.
They are rainbow capitalist because of former material conditions. Besides bombing the Middle East because of alleged inherent homophobia and steal their oil or bombing the Middle East because they are slur and steal their oil - is in the end a matter of rhetoric only.
politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism
the paradox of tolerance, ever heard of it?
Yup. Ever heard of Duverger"s Law?
Great hero of the people: Neville Chamberlain
If you had to choose between Neville Chamberlain and Hitler?
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us; rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us
Agreed
rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Nah that’s dumb. I don’t give a shit about “treating the system as legitimate”. The system is what it is, and it will continue to be the system until it isn’t anymore. That’s gonna take more than a handful of people refusing to acknowledge the system’s “legitimacy”.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
It is doing that though. You get the option to vote for which of the two cups they force feed you, and everyone else. We are not presently in a position to throw anything back right now. When we are, I’m all for it. But part of that is choosing the smaller cup of shit while we gather strength.
The point is I’m not going to lend you any legitimacy by picking up the shit and eating it myself, then turning at the people around me and asking why they aren’t eating it yet. I’m going to make it impossible for the shit peddler to hide their willingness and ability to abuse their power. If I’m eating shit either way, why would I do it in a way that makes it apparent to outsiders that I’m choosing to eat shit?
And no, when you scold people for not participating in a system, you are not just not “refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy”. You are promoting it, whether you care to or not. You are promoting the idea that everyone is choosing these options out of complete and true support of complete and unbiased information. This is especially true when people like you misrepresent and refuse to understand the arguments of those who choose to abstain or vote third party.
You are saying, “if you participate in this system, you could change the way things are going; and if you don’t, then you implicitly consent to it”, which is simply not true. Interestingly enough, you know how little power a person has when acting as an individual, which is why you minimize the reach of individuals when it comes to forms of political action other than voting, but you never apply it to the situation of voting where the ruling class has vast numbers of ways to influence people’s behaviors in whatever direction they want.
The change can only come when we have built the ability to move cohesively as a class, or a voting bloc if you will, that can either take power for itself or force our leaders to come to our table if they want our compliance. We can only build this by overcoming the resentment we hold for other members of our class, and putting one foot in front of the other; turning one person at a time towards the inner workings of the machine that the ruling class works so hard to hide. Not by stoking resentment and wasting our energy trying to manipulate an illegitimate system while we wait around for the movement to build itself.
More like choosing between Hindenburg and Hitler.
Is committing genocide not a fascist act?
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Fascism provides a specific permission structure for genocide that isn’t present in other systems. That’s not to say genocide didn’t happen before the term was coined, but that the characteristics of fascism; nationalism, racial supremacy, military supremacy, victim complex, out groups, scapegoating, disdain for human rights, etc.; tend to be present anywhere that genocide is present, and genocide doesn’t just happen because some “genocidal regime” found its way into power.
Whether or not you need their permission to make the policy; you need the people’s permission for it to stand, because ultimately you need the people’s voluntary compliance in order to carry it out. Otherwise you undermine your own system and generally incite resistance against it.
God, how much is a sniveling little toad do you have to be to engage in that kind of nit picking semantics about genocide.
I’m sympathetic to your argument, but ultimately they absolutely are fascist. If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian. There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
We can’t keep accepting the lesser evil indefinitely. When you brush off the serious issues in the Democratic party with language like “no saints” you make it look like that’s exactly what you intend for the country to do. I mean “politicians will be politicians”. That’s not convincing anymore.
If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian.
Just to clarify this to others:
There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
That part is important. I hear you about “the lesser evil” but if you’re response to resisting a lesser evil results in a faster, accelerated evil then you have contributed to a much greater harm. If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
Biden was in power when the genocide started and during most of it. He had the power to stop it and didn’t. So there’s your answer.
So the Genocide hasn’t accelerated under Trump as OP claimed?
No. It continued at the same rate. It is a nonsensical argument anyways. Biden could have stopped it but chose to pass it on to Trump.
Okay, don’t vote for Biden then.
Palestinians have been a victim of genocide since 1948. Biden send cops to beat down pro-Palestinian student protestors, Bill Clinton went to Dearborn and talked about Samaria & Judea, a thousand democrat voters cackled on twitter wishing violence on gaza after holocaust harris lost.
Genocide and Empire is bipartisan politics and we will destroy both of them. Lies must make place for truth and empires mush perish.
To put it differently, if they are the proximate cause of the Trump presidency, then you are the ultimate cause. I throw up my hands at trying to decide which matters more.
That’s the part where I’m sympathetic to your argument. I think anyone not voting for Harris made a mistake. I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
The argument I made for people to vote for Harris was that this is exactly what will happen if Trump wins, and 3 months before an election is not the time to try to get a viable alternative. Harris sucked, her campaign was shit, but the alternative is running the predictable course.
Now is an excellent time to work on a viable alternative, but saying “both are the same” is disingenuous, and is not actually putting an alternative forward.
They’re certainly no worse off.
OP just said that under Trump the genocide is happening faster and you don’t consider that worse off?
Hmm, red makes it go faster so you kill more people faster but they don’t suffer as long but blue gives you better team mates in matches… wait is this competitive trolley slaughter? I wasn’t expecting to need a team I guess I’ll choose blue because they will be carrying.
Innacurate. Obama used drones, saving countless american lifes. You naughty tankie.
Make no mistake, Barack Obama is a war criminal.
During his presidency, Obama approved the use of 563 drone strikes that killed approximately 3,797 people. In fact, Obama authorized 54 drone strikes alone in Pakistan during his first year in office. One of the first CIA drone strikes under President Obama was at a funeral, murdering as many as 41 Pakistani civilians. The following year, Obama led 128 CIA drone strikes in Pakistan that killed at least 89 civilians. Just two years into his presidency, it was clear that the “hope” that President Obama offered during his 2008 campaign could not escape U.S. imperialism.
The drone operations extended to Somalia and Yemen in 2010 and 2011, resulting in more destructive results. Under the belief they were targeting al-Qaida, President Obama’s first strike on Yemen killed 55 people including 21 children, 10 of which were under the age of five. Additionally, 12 women, five of them pregnant, were also among those who were murdered in this strike. These blundered acts of murder by not only President Obama, but the U.S. government, are morally reprehensible.
Even more civilian casualties came out of Afghanistan throughout Barack Obama’s time in office. In 2014, Obama began removing troops currently deployed in the country. However, instead of this action by the president being one in a pursuit of peace and stability in the region, it only acted as an opportunity to drastically increase air warfare. Afghanistan had war rained upon them by U.S. bombardment, with the administration viciously dropping 1,337 weapons on Afghanistan in 2016. In total that year, the Obama administration dropped 26,171 bombs (drone or otherwise) across seven countries: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. The U.S., in cooperation with its allies including the Afghan government, killed 582 civilians on average annually from 2007 to 2016.
See “https://archive.ph/wK992#selection-1737.240-1761.53” for the full article.
Americans are propagandized to ignore U.S. imperialism; we assert ourselves as the world’s policeman. Ask yourself: Why can the U.S. murder in the Middle East or sink civilian ships from Venezuela with impunity? The murder of U.S. civilians is unacceptable but when we do the killing it’s always a “necessary evil”.
Thanks for the round up though, it’s always good to know :)
I was jokie. I know all that. The united states are illegitimate as far as I’m concerned.
Ah, I didn’t see that your comment was written sarcastically. Sorry about that.
You’re grand, as they say in ireland
