This reminds me I need to shave my balls
Alright everyone in the tank.
How sir?
…well shit
Do drones explode as soon as they feel resistance? I always thought it was more like kamikaze style where they fly into something completely and then the impact detonates the munition, not a bunch of sensors that trigger it as soon as it touches something like a landmine.
From the videos, it looks like there are two wires in the front that connect when they hit something. My guess is that’s what detonates it.
Interesting. I feel like this defence would be easily defeated if instead of two wires, it’s more of a cantilevered wire on a plastic/metal arm that requires a specific amount of force to bend, located on the nose of the drone, and the Secord contact point inset into the body of the drone, so when it crashes head on into something the two points connect but only if it really makes contact with something solid
Oh look an unwieldy massive target with a monstorously large target profile, zero offensive capabilities, attrocious maneuverability with a suicidally slow reverse gear and absolutely catastrophically bad situational awareness.
Perfect target for a 155mm shell spotted in by a drone talking to fire control.
Also holy shit these are a main battle tanks wet dream of a target, armor design prioritizes having a low minimally exposed profile because otherwise tanks will eat them for lunch.
This is how a main battle tank is supposed to look, no the rules haven’t changed Russia/Putin is just desperate and high off their own supply of bullshit.
or any other arty, or any competent ATGM, or bomber drone, or mines (perhaps also laid by a drone), or FPVs detonated on command (with EFPs or something like segment of MON-100 mine)
That tank is ridiculous but those offset plates would stop the shaped charges in armor piecing rounds because the jet that does the penetration forms before it reaches the tank’s actual armor.
A minimal profile doesn’t matter when you are going up against drones instead of other tanks.
Ok you are mixing up a couple of different things here.
Ok first, no, this is a common misconception with High Explosive Anti-Tank munitions, especially sophisticated ones like the RPG-7 that I imagine has actually gotten a decent amount of people killed from believing it. This was a big thing in attempting to up armor Strykers and other armored vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan for the US army since the threat of RPGs was so prevalent, and the brutal reality is unless there is a specific counter to a specific warhead such as some of the slat style armor on Strykers that was designed to fuck up the contact sensor on the RPG warhead, detonating a HEAT round before it impacts armor actually IMPROVES the armor penetration of the molten hot jet formed by the HEAT round.
In general I believe HEAT type rounds perform best when they have about a meter or of space to form a molten jet, so detonating a HEAT round before the armor proper is actually a problematic proposition. For a typical main battle tank HEAT round this kind of detonation before the main armor on this shitty “tank” would likely do nothing for survivability in the best case scenario.
This ‘bird cage’ (Figure 1b) put around the vehicle exploits a specific weakness in the design of the detonation chain of two of the most common antitank rounds for the RPG-7 system, using, respectively, the PG-7 warhead (the oldest and likely most proliferated antitank ammunition for this system) and the PG-7M warhead (based on the same functioning mechanism as the original PG-7, but having a smaller maximum diameter). Next to these two very widespread types of ammunition, a number of other Soviet types of ammunition work on the same principle, e.g., the PG-7L warhead also for the RPG-7 weapon system, the warhead of the RPG-18 disposable antitank rocket launcher, and of the SPG-9 recoilless rifle.
Contrary to what many may believe, the main defeat mechanism for the PG-7(M) warhead, when fired against such a cage armour system, is not based on an increase in standoff distance, as with the so-called ‘bazooka plates’ from World War II (Figure 1c). A simple comparison between the two types of protection clearly shows the much more complex (and hence expensive) geometry of a typical cage armour system when compared with the simple sheets used for the historical bazooka plates, which would have sufficed if the goal was only to create standoff distance.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/12/10/5064
Perhaps the most common myth which has arisen around HEAT warheads is that they can be easily defeated through the use of small amounts of standoff (empty space), with popular opinion frequently considering a gap of 0.3 m to 1 m to be sufficient to nullify the penetrative power of the jet. Once again, this is mistaken, as can be readily seen from footage of overfly top attack (OTA) weapons such as NLAW, which often activate their warheads at more than a metre over their target.[15] Nonetheless, common arguments that standoff defeats HEAT warheads have pointed to the adoption of spaced armour, including side skirts, and statistical armour protection such as bar armour (also known as slat armour), and RPG netting (such as Tarian) as proof that standoff is somehow effective against HEAT warheads. Again, these are largely inaccurate, and have arisen from a fundamental misunderstanding of how such forms of protection actually work.
To understand why, the first thing to note is that HEAT warheads actually require a relatively high degree of standoff distance just to reach their maximum penetration potential. The exact optimal distance will vary depending on various factors in the warhead design, such as liner material, liner angle, liner thickness, liner grain size, defect tolerance in liner manufacturing, explosive filler type, detonation wave shaping, along with various other factors, and will vary among different warheads. However, as a general rule, it is not possible to get the maximum level of performance out of a jet without a degree of standoff – simply put, some physical space is needed for the jet to focus itself into the optimal shape.
The PG-7VR round is intended for engaging all types of tanks (including those protected with ERA), armoured and soft-skin vehicles and for suppressing of enemy`s manpower inside building and installations. It is equipped with a tandem high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead. According to the specifications, PG-7VR has a caliber of 105 mm, a weight of 4.5 kg, an effective firing range of 200 m, and a penetration capability of more than 0.6 m of homogenous armour.
The PG-7VL round is intended for engaging all types of tanks (including those protected with ERA), armoured and soft-skin vehicles and for suppressing of enemy`s manpower inside buildings and installations. It is equipped with a HEAT warhead. According to the specifications, PG-7VL has a caliber of 93 mm, a weight of 2.6 kg, a maximum effective firing range of 300 m, and a penetration capability of more than 0.5 m of homogenous armour.
Second, main battle tanks such as the Abrams or Leopard use Armor Piercing sabot rounds. They aren’t chemical, they are massive hunks of sharp metal, they don’t care about some fluff in front of the armor plating or reactive/explosive armor meant to disrupt the formation of a HEAT jet, they will punch through all of it just the same. If a freight train is hurtling towards you, derailing the train just before it hits you isn’t really a defense as you still have a freight train hurtling towards you.
Man, I feel like I’m playing War Thunder all of a sudden.
detonating a HEAT round before it impacts armor actually IMPROVES the armor penetration of the molten hot jet formed by the HEAT round.
Could you link the information? That goes against everything I’ve ever read. Yes you need space for the jet to form. That’s part of the design of the round where the charge is farther back from the nose. But the jet doesn’t propagate to infinity. It’s the entire reason layered armored exists.
In particular, that ridiculous tank linked above has a huge standoff.
As to sabot, again it’s not tank vs tank that this was done.
Yeah I edited to include links because that is most DEFINITELY how the dynamics work here, you are very mistaken. The jet doesn’t propagate to infinity of course, there is some optimum distance, but from everything I have read a meter or so of distance is totally fine, in a lot of cases that scale of distance helps the formation of the molten armor piercing jet.
Thanks for the links.
The first link isn’t relevant. It specifically says the cage style standoff they analyze isn’t for deflecting the jet but for short circuiting the detonator.
The second has graphs that show all the various weapons dropping off after 1 meter stand off. The data that says it doesn’t fall off is from theoretical calculations. The front of the ridiculous tank is well more than 1 meter from the turret. You can’t even see the gun barrel which is at least 4 meters long.
Then there’s the added armored that the standoff provides. There’s boxes probably filled with sand and then several inches of armor all around the tank itself.
Wait, are you serious? This is basic physics here, you are suggesting there is some quick cheap hack to defeat what… HEAT rounds? Or Armor Piercing sabot kinetic energy rounds? It isn’t even clear which you are responding to. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about, stop spreading misinformation.
Do you realize that at a basic level you are saying “wow look at this magic armor that makes this metal box impervious to anti-tank rounds or tank shells by exploding them BEFORE they hit the armor!” but you have to strap that armor onto your armor…. Even if the basic physics made sense here in your argument that this kind of armor would be effective, which they don’t, there is a basic philosophical hilarity to just saying the perfect defense for a box is a bigger weaker box that surrounds the stronger inner box. If this kind of logic works… I mean… isn’t it obvious it would fall apart comically quickly? Why not just keep iterating that logic out if it worked?
You really aren’t understanding this, a tank shell hitting armor is like a freight train hitting a tank, the details of how the collision happen can’t be gamed out by clever smart AI technology with some magic hack to nullify the basic exchange of kinetic energy happening here. Explosive/Reactive Armor can attempt to disturb the formation of a HEAT molten jet, but again modern main battle tanks like the Abrams and Leopard would likely fire a kinetic armor piercing sabot round at a pathetic excuse for a tank like this.
Cannons and walls and the details of how they interact are things very smart people have been arguing about for as long as gunpowder has existed, what it is with techbro AI brainrot that has got people to think they are suddenly the first people to ever think about shit?
None of this matters anyways because the counter to heavy, slow, concentrated armored force in modern combined arms combat is ARTILLERY not tanks or drones, and these absurdly ungainly massive hulking “drone fortresses” demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of how combined arms combat works. You are falling for complete and utter nonsense and russian cope.
I guess in the english speaking world this is partially a byproduct of how much the US military has relied on airpower dominance instead of artillery… but historically Russia has been known for having a large land army that understood intimately the power of overwhelming artillery force to make any degree of hardened limited-mobility defense moot, which makes this kind of decay of basic rationality to Russia’s strategy all the more mystifying and revealing of their desperation.
edit if there is an evolution of high intensity armored land warfare here, it will be in tightly integrating direct-fire main battle tanks with high volume vertical launch indirect-fire capable ATGM launcher armored vehicles to leverage the advantages of both types of weapon while mimizing their weaknesses (along with tight integration with UGV and UAV support), but I don’t see that even on the radar for Russia, their plan seems to be to admit that their tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are so shitty that they are only useful as remote control simplistic “drive it at the enemy and shoot” frontal assault vehicles that experience such a high loss rate that it is too costly to put human beings in the tanks anymore because they keep dying at too high of a rate to retain any institutional knowledge and tactical fitness as an armored fighting force.
This is about DRONE defense. I have no idea why you are ranting about sabots and HEAT.
Drones do not shoot 105mm Heat rounds.
They’re called cope cages for a reason!
There is a difference between adding a cope cage intelligently to armor and just completely undermining the basic function and usefulness of armor by letting go of all other design considerations except “Drone is bad”.
China has registered a patent for a foldable anti-drone protection system for tanks that closely resembles Ukraine’s so-called “hood,” according to Defense Express on September 30.
The development follows earlier reports that Russia had already adapted the Ukrainian design for its own armored vehicles.
The Chinese version was patented by Dragon Shield Intelligence Equipment and is expected to be marketed under the name Dragon Shield.
The non-bullshit version of this.
Interesting read, thanks! Nice to see that it can actually help when applied intelligently
Nice to see that it can actually help when applied intelligently
For the first couple of drones which detonate on impact. And not even those if you happen to encounter an FPV drone with a skilled operator who can just fly around that umbrella. However, traditionally tanks should be backed up by infantry and they can carry shotguns or whatever is the current best tool against drones, and in that case that Dragon Shield might actually be useful. But for a lone tank on recon mission or something similar it doesn’t do much.
Looks like everyone’s helmet during swooping season here! Fucking Magpies
That’s not a tank - it’s Sigue Sigue Sputnik’s tour bus.
Another person knows about Sigue Sigue Sputnik‽‽‽
Stick and stones will break my bones
And hopefully stop the drones?
I want to see them in an open field during a thunderstorm
It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas ~ 🎄
This is not a cope-cage. This is what a cope-cages nightmare would look like.
It is doing a lot of effort in the coping department though.
Looks to be a large mobile cremation machine
when you’re all out of t-90s and all that’s left are hairballs
Russian “ingenuity” hehehe
Does this make any sense to anyone? Sure it’ll keep grenade size explosives away*, but shouldn’t a tank be able to take that easy peasy?
*Kinda, a grenade/mortar can still be dropped, but I guess the drone can’t land directly, so depends on the drone?
I assume it’s meant to work like slat or spaced armour, which aims to interfere with the detonation of the shaped charges that are quite common in anti-tank weapons. Modern tank armour can more or less handle them, but there’s a lot of not-very-modern armour in service in this war
I’m looking at the wire spikes and wondering what they’re good for. Those won’t interfere with any serious munition.
My guess:
It’s for quadcopter FPV drones. The trigger on them is often two wires that bend to connect on contact. Triggering the detonationy 2-3 meters away from the turtle shell , means it takes more drones to destroy the tank.
That’s still back to my original point though, the quad ones I’ve seen don’t carry much. The tank should be able to easily take that hit.
Tanks were designed and built long before drones entered the picture. They were designed to defeat more traditional attacks. Tanks also have to maneuver so weight is a major concern. One of the tradeoffs made a long time ago is the armor on all tanks is uneven.
The front and sides of the tanks where most incoming fire came from from were made extra thick. The top and rear of the tank are much thinner.
Drones attack tanks from the top or the rear. They mostly use an RPG HEAT munition that can easily penetrate the thinner armor in the weak spots.
Cages are an attempt to keep the drones away from the tanks weak spot long enough for them to run away.
Do you have a link to a drone that needs to land to set off a tank penetrating HEAT round. Not to drop a HEAT round, because the wires wouldn’t stop that, one that has to land first.
