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Finally
So did the UN as of two days sgo, for those who missed it. More here: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds
For the leaders hiding behind the shield of “we don’t know”, well, now we know. Now get off your ass and do what you’re obligated to do.
So does anyone know what actually comes of this? Does this realistically change the trajectory at all or will Israel just carry on like nothing changed?
They’ll just keep carrying on
I love Bernie. I think he’s one of the greatest people we have in this world. That being said it’s about goddamn time. He’s been avoiding saying that for a very very very long time.
Because he is or was sponsored by an Israeli party or whatever. He was even pro israel at the start of the genocide.
He made it pretty clear. If it’s a genocide, that’s an argument for the courts, and the thing that needs something done about it is the starving people and indiscriminate killing of civilians.
The “is it or isn’t it” debate is a bullshit distraction from the fact that isreal is killing it’s citizens.
It’s a shame some people still call that genocide a “war”.
It is. How is that bad? A country is doing stuff in another with military force without consent. That’s war. (If prolonged)
There’s a difference between war and ethnic cleansing.
If I pulled a gun and killed an unarmed person, would you call that a fight?
If the united states randomly decided to hit every square kilometer of Liechtenstein with its own hydrogen bomb in the middle of the night, would you call that a war?
No, but a shooting.
Murder. It would be murder.
No. One country, backed by all the money and weapons of the west, was given land that was stolen from palestine in 1948, then they proceeded to slowly eradicate and remove the palestinian population. Just look at maps of palestine from 1948 to today, and watch the genocides progression.
There was an international arms embargo by the USA and the UN on Israel/Palestine in 1947-48.
The Zionists bought and smuggled in surplus WW2 weapons from Czechoslovakia during that time. The Soviet Union helped the Zionists, which were dominated by socialists at the time in the hopes of gaining an ally.
Between 1948 and 1967 there was no slow removal of Palestinian Arabs. Almost all of it was quite sudden in 1948. Keep in mind that Jewish Palestinians were expelled from the Jordan occupied West Bank and half of Jerusalem. Gaza was occupied by Egypt and Jews were expelled. Arab and Muslim countries persecuted and expelled their Jewish population after 1948, resulting in 800,000 to a millions Jews fleeing, many to Israel.
There was an international arms embargo by the USA and the UN on Israel/Palestine in 1947-48.
The Zionists bought and smuggled in surplus WW2 weapons from Czechoslovakia during that time.
It’s bad because it suggests two matched belligerents. It’s like the difference between a boxing match with a skill gap, and a boxer violently murdering a child with a pretext. Also the child has been rendered physically and mentally disabled by the boxer’s previous activity. Also the boxer locks the child up and deprives it of food and water and shelter.
Not all that comparableNo it doesn’t suggest matched belligerents. Real life ain’t no sport. Falkland war is also called that.
It’s not a war because Israel doesn’t acknowledge it as a war. If it were a war, they would be treating Hamas as an actual military and be following the Geneva convention. Israel does not treat the thousands of Gazan hostages it’s abducted, who it nominally labels as “Hamas,” anything like what is required by the Geneva convention.
It’s not a war because Israel has chosen not to treat it like a war.
There is no thing forcing you to adhere to international law. You don’t have to follow Geneva Convention. You might be executed for it if caught outside of your country or if another country seems to stop you, but there is no compulsion there.
So your defense of Israel is that “well aktually the laws of war don’t technically apply to them!”
Fuck off with this genocide apologia. If you need to split hairs on the technical definition of the laws of war, you’re obviously doing something indefensible. Only Nazi trash feels the need to equivocate on something as unforgivable as genocide and war crimes.
Seriously, you need a therapist or a priest. Your soul is clearly broken.
Most of the people in Gaza are not attempting to fight back, they’re just getting killed. It’s little kids and families, mostly. I think Hamas at the start of the “war” was about 45k people… they’ve killed several times that number of Palestinians at this point. They’re just blowing up apartment buildings, hospitals, and universities. Gaza City was the last place that had any kind of real civilian life, and they’re rolling into it now (and still not allowing food, people are starving in the streets).
This is a “war” like Ted Bundy was fighting in a “war.”
No amount of human suffering can change that it is a war. Hamas is unable to peace out because, well, why would Israel stop when they could continue. I am not saying that there is a lot of actual fighting. This is about words.
I am not saying that there is a lot of actual fighting.
Yes, glad we agree. There is not “fighting” between Israeli airstrikes, tanks, and coordinated infantry, and Palestinian families and occasional small arms by any Hamas people or irregulars still left alive. There is however quite a lot of dying. That was my point.
Falklands war was a boxing match with a skill gap, in my analogy.
As a European, can someone explain to me why Bernie Sanders has never been running for president?
he did in 2016. dems sabotaged him in favour of Hillary
He was also in 2020 primaries. Same deal IIRC
Besides running advertisements against him, what did “the dems” do to sabotage his campaign?
Coordinated for all the centrists except Biden to drop out at the same time, while Warren and Sanders split the vote of the progressive wing. When it looked like Sanders had a decent shot at actually getting the nomination, all the centrists except Biden dropped out simultaneously and endorsed him. Biden won the nomination due to a giant DNC-coordinated rat-fucking.
They also fucked with the caucuses
Barbara Boxer giving the middle finger to Bernie supporters while exiting the rigged 2016 Nevada convention:
https://youtube.com/shorts/ob2oILFESog
The Boxer video was difficult to find, it seems to have been pretty thoroughly scrubbed from the internet.
But we remember, don’t we kids?
Unpopular opinion but that sounds like a skill issue when the progressives could’ve done the same thing. And I say this as a Bernie voter.
And I say this as a Bernie voter.
If everyone who “says this as a Bernie voter” had actually voted for Bernie, We’d be in the first year of his 2016 running mate’s administration.
Bruh, you’re really going to accuse me of lying about voting for an extremely popular left-wing candidate on a left-wing social media platform?
Were there enough progressives in the right positions of power to make that happen, though?
One advantage that centrist / establishment types have is that they are everywhere and people are used to them. And they sometimes actually coordinate when the status quo gets threatened.
Hmmm im thinking it has more to do with him not capitulating to billionaire interests. That sounds a lot like Hillary saying “no one wants to work with him”
No centrist will ever call it a genocide, but people are sure angry that a man who introduced multiple bills to cease or condition weapons sales didn’t say the word as soon as they wanted.
These are the same people who called people trumpers when they said that harris should show some daylight between herself and biden’s “whatever netanyahu-senpai wants” policies.
There is a big narrative that loves to pick off the left-est of the left people in the US government, and come up with various bullshit reasons to criticize them. You’ll see a bunch of them down below in this thread, being negative about Bernie.
You’ll never hear this kind of argument applied anywhere else. Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever. When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that. The extensive nitpicking is only aimed at people like AOC and Bernie who are significant leftist voices in government.
If you want to know what Bernie’s been actually saying about Gaza, this is it:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uVDPXtnTXUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhcSlrJcAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dd4cg-t8j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_AWLQ4gk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZreokpA_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrHfsqg990
And so on. He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing: Yelling about Israel, what a fucking horror it is, and trying to stop US military aid. This extensive nailbiting about him calling it “ethnic cleansing” instead of “genocide” is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him, definitely not with any enthusiasm or support for him. I guarantee it.
Yeah, pretty much.
Also:
I’m not convinced the most extreme comments you see online seeking to split up leftists are in good faith. It’s relatively easy for people committing espionage to pretend to be leftists, push their agenda, and then seek to divide and conquer.
I’m not saying there aren’t real people out there saying these things, but I do believe many of them have bought the narrative of bad faith actors that were disguised among them.
The same exact thing happens on the right, but it’s more so just spamming their bad faith rhetoric with bots in their case. Since their goal is just to convince the least checked-in person to disengage or believe their side a bit more by seeing their side first.
Yeah, absolutely.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/21079358
This fuckin’ dingbat I can’t even
Edit: So maybe I’m fooling myself, but I do feel like I’ve gotten a little bit capable with spotting which ones of them are the deliberate disruptors as opposed to people who got fooled by them and are echoing. The major tells of the totally fake accounts are:
- Low effort. They don’t try very hard to convince you. It doesn’t have to make sense, they don’t really read what people are saying, they just blandly repeat the same kinds of stuff. Most people who sincerely believe that Bernie betrayed the Palestinian people and all our hopes that he would finally say something against Israel (for example) will at least seem like they believe it themselves, they’ll get upset about something specific that happened, or they’ll misunderstand various facts but sincerely talk about them, or similar. The people who are deliberately lying will just kind of fart out their little shtick and then move on to the next comment. Some of the sloppier ones, if you check the profile, don’t really bother to engage with anything that isn’t their designated political talking points. They’ll just kind of spray one-liner “I sure do love Helldivers mm boy” comments in other communities but the only thing they ever put any effort into is particular repetitive political points.
- A lot of times their reactions don’t really need to match what you’re saying. They have a tendency for example to tell you what you believe (“I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie”), instead of responding to what you said, and then start arguing with the strawman. Of course real people do that too, but most real people at least have some interest in reading and responding to what the message they’re responding to actually says. A lot of the shill messages could literally apply to any message. Try mentally shuffling them around, so that what they said is a response to some totally different comment, and then if it still fits 100% equally as well, then that’s a warning sign.
- A lot of times they have the same handful of arguments that go on repeat. It’s like 5-10 little nuggets (AOC voted to send weapons to Israel! Bernie doesn’t call it a genocide!) and they tend to fall back on them and totally ignore anything else. Also, crucially, they tend to introduce unrelated ones randomly even when the topic is some totally different thing. For example look at how many people in these comments are bringing up AOC.
- Often if you check in their profile you’ll see a lot of overlap between multiple talking points. Some of the comments are just low-effort spray of random comments, but a lot of their political or meaningful engagement will be the exact same variety of various points. Historically, some of the sloppier ones would tend to overlap ones that really didn’t fit (Ukraine is escalating the war and it’s really dangerous, NATO needs to stop! I sure do wish Kamala Harris wasn’t so pro-genocide, I’m definitely not voting for her!) all from the same account.
That is my short maybe-totally-wrong field guide to identifying the bad accounts on Lemmy. Not 100%, your mileage may vary, I have no real idea but this is what I’ve observed and guessed at.
You were wondering why people weren’t reacting the same to Eurovision contestants calling it a genocide as with Bernie Sanders, which I felt was kind of an odd comparison.
Political alliances are bad because they would mean actually taking action. It’s much more comfortable to just sit around, criticize, and preach your moral superiority.
In particular, if you’re criticizing Bernie Sanders because he’s not awesome enough, then that means you must be so awesome you’re on a whole nother level. And if anyone disagrees, it just means they’re not awesome, it actually proves your whole point. Job done.
The UN just called it one, Bernie has cover to do it now. His situation changed, so did his actions.
People get mad at Bernie because they expect better and are disappointed it took so long. No one expects better of Beto.
But even so-
Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever.
-you absolutely woud lol
When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that.
Then you must not have been paying attention, because that was everywhere here
https://lemmy.world/post/35806638
I literally don’t see even a single comment saying that the Netherlands is bad for not having done this previously. Let alone anything like this or this.
I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie, a sitting U.S. senator, but Eurovision hasn’t been voting to send weapons to Israel.
There’s been many votes and resolutions on Gaza that Bernie was involved in where people were hoping for him to make a stance he hasn’t until now.
Eurovision participants? Not so much.
Even Beto, who is an out-of-office former house representative hasn’t been in that position. He was last in office in 2019.
Expectations are way different in these situations.
I get you’re trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie, a sitting U.S. senator, but Eurovision hasn’t been voting to send weapons to Israel.
Yes! I can’t tell you how many times he has voted to send weapons to Israel. Literally every single time. It is known!
Which one was your favorite? Which time did he vote for weapons to Israel that wasn’t some wild mischaracterization like “his vigorous attempt to stop sending weapons to Israel doesn’t count because actually it means he was in favor of all the other times we sent weapons to Israel (which he also vigorously opposed)”? Which bill and what did he vote for that was sending weapons to Israel? This definitely isn’t a bunch of nonsense so I’d love to hear more.
(YouTube videos “people were hoping for him to make a stand” get the fuck out of here lol)
He voted for the most recent Iron Dome package. I guess you probably excuse his votes before Oct 7th because it was before this recent phase of the genocide, but the genocide didn’t start on Oct 7th
The contradictions are sharper now, but Israel has been a genocidal settler colony since it was founded.
I feel like you missed the ‘sitting U.S. Senator’ vs ‘Eurovision’ point to peoples reactions and expectations?
Which one was your favorite? Which time that Bernie Sanders voted to send weapons to Israel? I can’t wait to hear! Don’t leave me hanging! I really wanted to hear.
I mean you’re right to call me out on that other thing. I definitely remember the time when someone at Eurovision got up and did this, it was right between Spain and Portugal. I do agree, it would be wonderful if someone would do something like that in the US Senate, not just at Eurovision. It’s honestly shameful that Bernie Sanders never did anything like that when Eurovision has been running commercials like this. Honestly, you’re right, and I feel bad for ever doubting your insight here.
I cannot honestly parse this gish.
He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing
He has focused more of his time criticising the Nentayahu government specifically, rather than the fundamental concept of running a settler colony. He has only recently starting naming the full israeli government. He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him
Because ultimately Bernie still supports the conditions that will continue the genocide. He is still a liberal zionist. He will still buy a beachfront property in Gaza once it is cleansed but I guess its ok if he cries the entire time.
He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
Watch the YouTube videos I posted where he is repeatedly introducing bills to stop ensuring exactly that, and yelling with pictures on the floor of the Senate about how important it is.
You’re talking pure shit.
No, his bills were always weasely with what restrictions they placed. They always had easy to reach exceptions that continued the flow of trade to the occupation. They always allowed more Americans to settler in the land and steal homes from the Palestinians.
Bernie never truly has taken an anti-zionist position. He always ultimately props up the settler state. Even in his latest speech he blames the resistance.
Whee look at the goalposts go
Everyone knows if you’re going to get a bill passed in the US Senate, the best thing you can do is include something in them where individuals can’t trade with Israel anymore. Like Cuba. Just cutting off the flow of military aid would be useless and not accomplish anything, unless we included that totally possible and sensible step in addition, and then asked all the senators to vote on it.
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Why are you making up what I said?
Whee look at the goalposts go
Failing to call it a genocide in 77 years is not moving a goalpost. Its basic human decency
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Bad faith is what Bernie has done, always blaming Nentanyahu, continuing the flow of any arms, trade and people to the settler state.
Ah yes, who could forget that time he fought to continue the flow of any arms, trade, and people to the settler state. Which bill was that that he supported? What was the exception carved out, how was it carved out? Clearly I’m super clueless on this topic, what year did he introduce the bill? I want to know, maybe you can help me understand. I know there must have been hundreds if not thousands that he introduced, so just focus on one. Tell me.
https://x.com/anna_bahr/status/1950335108864479631
“Offensive” arms only.
What a stupid take. Beto O’Rourke isn’t portraid as a civil rights champion or a leftist, he’s just a democrat. Bernie was supposed to be more, he’s supposed to be the (democratic) socialist, the left, and he’s supposedly a champion of human rights.
Except for Palestine. He reminisced his beautiful Kibbutz during an active genocide to justify it, completely ignoring his hypocrisy of building such a community by brutally stealing Palestinian land.
We don’t expect Beto to say anything, we had higher expectations for Bernie. He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
Bernie will finally call it a genocide, but he’ll go with the shifting tide of blaming Netanyahu. He won’t admit that there’s something fundamentally wrong with a religious ethno supremacist genocidal state and that the rot comes from deep within society, because his priority will be to save Jewish ISIS.
Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Let me know when he says that.
He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
I feel like there are a whole bunch of YouTube links up in the parent comment that you need to watch
deleted by creator
Here we go, everyone.
This is what OP is talking about
I saw a horrifying estimate of 680,000 murdered by israel in Gaza. Ten times the official figure. This is almost a third of the pre genocide population. It is a holocaust.
FYI I believe that’s the estimated casualty list.
Confirmed deaths are slightly below 70,000.
Absolutely horrific stuff, still.
That 70k barelly changed since Israel destroyed most of the hospitals in Gaza were the counting was done more than 9 months ago.
You see, that is the number of officially counted and identified dead, so to be counted the actual corpse has to be found (often amongst the rubble of bombed out buildings) in good enough condition to be identified, it has to be brough to a hospital were they do the counting and it has to be actually identified by somebody and against the list of Gaza residents.
For all those things to actually happen to a corpse in a highly urban war zone where entire families are wiped out when 2000lb bombs are dropped on buildings (so, who is going to identify the corpses?) the corpse has to be transported all the way to a hospital within a rubble-strewned city were over 70% of the buildings are destroyed, large parts are occupied by an enemy with a shoot on sight policity and which often targets ambulances, and the aggressor has activelly targetted the very places where the counting of dead is done, all of which by now adds to a very low probability combination, hence why that official number massivelly slowed down its increase around 9 months ago, when Israel destroyed most Gaza hospitals - it was hard enough to have all those events around a corpse happen when Gaza was still mainly intact, barelly occupied and Israel hadn’t been activelly suppressing the counting, and by now is very low probability.
Meanwhile in a letter of a researcher to the Lancet Medical Journal (edit: per the reference from another poster)
over 6 months agoin July 20, 2024, they estimatedaroundnear 200k dead and this was before the man-made famine.The IDF themselves have recently admitted having killed over 220k people.
All put together means that 600k estimate is very likely to be way closer to reality than the official 70k and might even be lower than reality.
That number is a very conservative estimate.
In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.
The Lancet vol. 404, Issue 10449 p237-238July 20, 2024
Applying that now would suggest around 300k deaths, close to one in seven Palestinians in Gaza killed by the IDF.
Its difficult to confirm casualties at the bottom of a collapsed apartment blocks in a kill zone.
Yes, but does that not mean every casualty is a death.
No, there’s probably a lot more deaths that weren’t logged as deaths or casualties, because they were unreachable. We won’t have a real count until we can compare populations before and after.
Correct, which is why we should mention — the still horrific — number of deaths and casualties. Then say that the confirmed death count hasn’t change because the hospitals in Gaza have been reduced to rubble, so official counts have barely updated for months.
The bar is in hell
I legitimately have no idea how that man keeps going. Pretty sure I would’ve hung my hat up after the first 3 or 4 decades when things kept getting worse.
Honestly, when you’re fighting for what’s right, it makes it more bearable when it’s hard. There’s not this extensive hesitation or heavy weight, like when you’re struggling with some frustrating task that isn’t really what needs to be done in the first place.
Wow, a big step for Sanders. This shows it is becoming more mainstream to acknowledge the genocide. I know it’s common sense for us here, but mainstream acceptance is extremely important here. A long way to go, but this is good news
Maybe he was waiting for the UN commission to officially call it a genocide.
A few years ago he said “Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic” - this REALLY HELPED criticism be heard at all.
BREAKING NEWS " Sanders calls genocide a “genocide”
Good for Bernie.
yea its been going on since he was like 7 years old. took long enough to say it out loud.
This
Back then maybe technically it wasn’t a genocide just yet, but I recall watching news on tv as an 8 year old, talking about Israeli soldiers shooting and murdering children because they threw rocks at them.
Nothing was done about it
That was over 40 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Definitely was a thing then too
If you’re gonna look at a bigger timescale, you’re really asking for a “both sides” argument. Its such a long and complicated conflict.
Yeah that was my undereducated take too. Time to wake up from years of propaganda my friend.
Thanks for the comment. It helped me a lot in changing my view. With al the new information and all the great arguments and the respectful communication…
Look i know that Lemmy is not helpful in educating yourself or even in having good conversations but if it is a topic you are interested in, you might pick up a book about it. I recommend “The hundred years’ war on palestine” by Rashid Khalidi. Very informational also about the shortcomings of the PLO and other palestinian orginanisations.
You do not have to be educated in everything or even anything. When i said what i said i did not mean to insult you. I am only beginning to learn about the history of palestine but it has been eye opening.
Don’t let heated comments and downvotes get to you personally. People are just in rage about all the death and destruction in which the west is more than complicit.
