(this is a sarcastic post meant to highlight the absurdity of some of the “greater good” rhetoric we’ve been hearing, especially around leaving vulnerable populations like disabled people behind in case of revolution, basically accelerationism)
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this is why so many people had an issue with the Democrat party platform of “let’s sacrifice Palestine”
I know that you’re really concerned about being stabbed with knives. But you just need to accept the Hard Truth that you not being stabbed with knives is losing political issue! Really, that’s why we’re losing elections. You can’t have everything that you want. And you need to see where the other side is coming from…
vs
I know that you’re really concerned about being stabbed with knives. One of these candidates is implicitly okay with you being stabbed with knives, and the other wants to personally stab you with even more knives. I recognize the injustice in this and will therefore vote for neither of them! (the worse one won and now you’re being stabbed with even more knives)
Who will win? (spoiler: I don’t know but certainly not you because you’re too busy being stabbed with knives)
No war but the class war. Everyone you disagree with is an ally in waiting except billionaires.
Until you somehow “deal” with the billionaires. Then you’ll all kill each other.
Lol humanity existed before oligarchs and kings.
It didn’t. Someone is always in charge.
A straight up Moldbug bootlicker. Get bent. No monarchies, no Kings, in America.
Lol, capitalist education system at work.
Hurdur. Name a period in time where people weren’t ruled. Either in a tribe or in an empire there is a leader or group of leaders in charge. There has never been a time when that isn’t the case. People naturally create governing hierarchies.
You know there is a difference between wise people being listened to because of experience or just because it’s been smart and suggesting rules everyone then agrees on and a feudal lord or class thereof that are exploiting a poorer majority with threats of violence and living a lavish lifestyle. There are still existing tribes in Asia or Amazonas that don’t even have words for mine and yours because the concept of owning is so foreign to them. Everything is shared. To say that they are being ruled comparably to medieval and modern systems just doesn’t make sense.
Essentially the ‘left’ on the topic of Palestine
“The left, american left, and right should join hands to fight american right”
Fight all you want, by all means, bring those in power further left. But at the ballot box come election day, I don’t care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends. Guaranteed their Republican opponent has a factory grinding puppies into various consumer products by the millions. And their 3rd party counterpart likely has a greater chance of getting elected to mayor of flavortown than to congress/president (and also still probably kills puppies casually among friends themselves).
Is this system bullshit? Yup. Is it the one we got? Yup. We need to deal within that reality. By all means, let’s work to change that system, but for the love of God, let’s not shoot ourselves in the foot when our favorite candidate doesn’t stand a chance in hell, or the more likely candidate is blatantly flawed (but still better than the alternative)
100%. Prior to Election Day? Get a democratic butt in every race and challenge the people advocating for puppy sacrifices.
Unfortunately we are at a point where only one party can be fixed.
But I was told democrats are worse than hitler
They aren’t worse then Hitler. They just kept saying Hitler has a right to defend himself and selling him the gas for his chambers.
Not the best way to win an election.
I don’t care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends.
How’s that been working for you? It looks to me like this attitude brought us Trump. Maybe it’s time the Democrats started demanding better.
I say demanding. Sitting out an election doesn’t count. The system doesn’t change just because you refuse to participate.
I’m really having trouble parsing your suggestion here.
- DEMAND better.
- Don’t just sit out election.
But surely a demand comes with a consequence if not met, right? What is the consequence in an election if not withholding your vote? But you said not to sit it out. Are you arguing in favor of voting 3rd party then? I have to assume that’s your intent, though you didn’t actually say that.
If that is your position, sure, but the problem with voting third party is that, without the mother of all grassroots followings, no third party candidate stands a shadow of a chance. And there was clearly no such popular candidate for president last election. And providing third parties with support is as bad as just not voting if they no chance of winning. It just amounts to not supporting your preferred candidate that does stand a chance.
That is fucked. I know and I agree. But that is the nature of First Past The Post voting and always will be. It’s a lot like the prisoners dilemma. The best possible outcome for you would be to get your most preferred third party candidate, but if you vote for them, and the rest of the voters don’t, you split the vote and end up giving your least preferred candidate an advantage instead. But voting your mosr preferred two-party candidate/popular candidate, or least of two evils as it may well be, comes with some negatives, but is an objectively better outcome.
We need election reform to get rid of FPTP and the two-party system with it. That is no small thing, I know, and there is no quick way to get that done. All we can do is advocate for it, vote for other advocates for it, and hope that eventually it becomes a party platform. But until then, we have to live with the reality and vote strategically. Demand better in so far as you use your voice and your dollars to support better candidates, vote in the primaries for the better candidate, but use your vote on election day with the system we have. Unfortunately, that does sometimes mean voting for a bit of evil to save yourself from a lot of evil.
What got us Trump 2.0 was people refusing to support Kamala. Apathy, protest, contempt, indifference, whatever their reasons, they didn’t show up and give her their votes. A big part of that is her fault for failing to live up to the standards the left expected of her, for failing to excite left wing voters. Those voters were perfectly justified in not being happy about the idea of voting for her, but, ultimately we are worse off because they didn’t. And choosing not to vote at all or to vote third party instead is on them alone.
No, what got us Trump 2.0 was the Democrats running a shitty candidate, on the coattails of another shitty candidate, on the coattails of a shitty presidential run. People were clamoring for a new candidate that actualy gave a shit, and the Democrats told them to sit down and shut up.
The Democrats chose money, war-mongers, and genocide over winning a slam-dunk election. It’s not the voter’s fault that we’re here, as they loudly told the Democrats what they wanted. It’s the Democrat’s fault for ignoring those demands from their base.
Why should people vote for a party that fights against what they want, when they can vote for a third party that is fighting for what they want?
Buddy this post is about leftists. You are not a leftist. You’re a left-leaning liberal. Read a book ffs.
Do you see us electing ourselves out of this mess (that we elected ourselves into)?
But at the ballot box come election day, I don’t care if the dem wants to sacrifice puppies on weekends
Every time a democrat talks like this they lose votes. “Yeah my candidate supports genocide, but-” stop you’ve just smeared your own candidate. If you don’t have anything nice about your candidate then keep your mouth shut.
Any normal american will see the rest of your comment and think they’re better off investing in bullets and silver than worrying about the election. You’re basically doing voter surppression.
Or maybe their candidates shouldn’t support genocide. It’d be much easier to sell the Democrats as a valid party to vote for if they weren’t in support of things like genocide.
The problem is, all that fighting, criticizing and finger pointing can be weaponized. That’s why FUD works.
You just amplify any legit concerns until they seem worse than Trump.
I’m convinced most of the leftists on here are either foreign actors or repeating their talking points.
I agree. It’s important to not lose the thread or your sense of reality when focusing on internal problems. Internal problems are usually differences of opinion, perspective, or goals, but with the same or similar basic values behind them. It’s important to keep those shared values in mind even while nitpicking the other stuff when you’re trying to influence the direction of your side. Keep in mind that you are all going generally the same direction while the Right is pulling against every step you take together, and just because your differences among the Left is your focus now doesn’t mean it is a bigger deal than your differences with the Right.
The Neoliberals have had 50 years in control of the “leftist” party, and they have only enabled the country to move further right.
They are either impotent or complicit.
This election the Neoliberals will either lose control of the party or we start a new leftist party. If they try to shove another milquetoast neolib down our throats they might get elected, but then the next Trump gets elected after 4 years of impotence and the cycle of the Duopoly continues.
Personally, I think some states are close to center, some are further left and others are further right. Rather than splitting the party and the vote share, we can grassroots organize, get signatures for a ballot initiative, and change the voting system away from First Past the Post. Our voting system is what ultimately prevents viable alternative parties from appearing and is causing the “safe incumbent” neoliberals to win out over “risky” progressive picks since people only get one vote and they don’t want to have their least favorite candidate win over their favorite and their safe choice.
Organizing now matters a lot. If we change even a few more states away from First Past the Post voting, like we did with Alaska and Maine, then third parties will have much more stable ground to actually form and win elections on the state and federal level. I still think supporting incumbents in many cases make sense until we act to change the voting systems. Although rallying around potential candidates which are pushing for change can make a difference in some races.
We can try to change the voting system on the county level and city level if trying to get the state as a whole to change has not been working in your state.
It’s always the leftists “splitting the party”, never the conservative Neoliberals.
That’s not something I would say or agree with. My statement is separate from that type of perspective and not what my comment was talking about.
Rather than splitting the party and the vote share, we can grassroots organize, get signatures for a
You don’t even read your own comments
Obvious bad faith argument. Voters and gerrymandering from the GOP moved the country further right.
The country will move left when leftists start winning elections.
Which is much less likely now that Trump is in office.
My bad I must have forgotten the part where Democrats, the “leftist” party of unions and ending slavery, wasn’t allowed to ever gain power in my lifetime, and that’s why they have done absolutely nothing to protect unions and push leftist policy.
OH WAIT A DEMOCRAT GETS ELECTED EVERY 4 YEARS AND THEN FUCKING MEETS FASCISTS IN THE MIDDLE, MOVING US FURTHER TO THE RIGHT.
No one is “allowed” to take power. There is a constant struggle for it. Leftists have been losing that struggle because they don’t get enough votes.
Dems move right because it is a politician’s job to cater to their constituents regardless of their ideology. If there are fewer leftist constituents then the politicians move right.
umm akshually there’s nothing they can do even tho they had the presidency and a congressional majority because…
Just shut up man
Ahh yes, that’s why Republicans do such a good job representing the normies and leftists in their constituents, because they represent all of their constituents, right?
Your brain is mush if you seriously believe it’s perfectly OK for Dems to move right and repugs to also move right…
Good point, the Dems stink! They haven’t done anything to stop Trump!
I’m gonna vote for Trump next election and until the Democrats start opposing Trump
The entire concept of “accelerationism” is complete nonsense. First of all, none of the people advocating for it are willing to say, “Yes, I am perfectly happy to become homeless and starve to death in order to foment the revolution.”
And what are people gonna do? Take up arms? We’re just gonna wait until everyone is starving but armed with an AR-15 and then hope the state doesn’t crush us with nukes? It’s highly privileged absurdist faux revolutionary nonsense.
Anything that gets you to target people with less power than you is a psy-op.
There is only one group of people to oppose. It’s a small group of extremely wealthy people. All their mouthpieces on the internet are irrelevant (and likely bots) and are best ignored/blocked.
There is one small, powerful group who are the only justifiable targets. Everything else is a distraction and likely a divide-and-weaken tactic.
One small group of powerful, wealthy people. That is the enemy. No one with less power than you is worth focusing on.
You’re absolutely right.
The billionaire owner class is at the root of all this. They own the politicians, they buy up the media outlets and bot farms to control the narrative, and they make our lives miserable in order to further pad their already incomprehensibly massive bank accounts.
Working class must look out for each other. We have so much more in common with our brothers and sisters across the aisle than we ever will have with these parasitic elites.
Tankies justifying slave labor “only 10% of industries were built with gulag forces” calling socialist countries that succeeded with market socialism revisionist “Tito is a revisionist prick delaying global Revolution” and then not even batting an eye to the worse state capitalism that USSR and china engaged in “it improved the lives of people! No, it wasn’t authoritarian! And yes, the party members we sent to gulags and killed were DEFINITELY anti revolutionists and not trying to stop the state capitalism that was forming.”
Personally, I like a hybrid system. You know the famous Laffer Curve? Laffer was a hack who just used it to justify tax cuts, but he did have a point. At a 0% tax rate and a 100% tax rate, the government is bringing in zero revenue. However, the shaped of the curve in between is unknown. He just arbitrarily assumed that wherever tax rates happened to be at, the optimal rate was lower. I say we actually study it and harness the principle.
Personally, I like the idea of using this principle not just as a crank tool to justify tax cuts, but as a way to maximize redistributive spending. Figure out what tax rate allows you to have the absolute most generous social welfare system possible, and set your tax policies to that rate. I like the free market, but as a practical tool, not for its own sake. I want to keep the free market around…chained to a treadmill, set to the maximum speed possible that won’t cause it to die of exhaustion.
That curve is so stupid on so many levels, wow.
But also, when we talk about socialism, we don’t mean “capitalism but we tax the rich”. A socialist society would not even need taxes, in the liberal sense. When the means of production are controlled democratically by the workers, by extending democracy from the political to the economic, who would you even tax, and who would the money go to?
It’s a big problem that people have been so convinced that capitalism and liberal democracy are the only way to organize society. We can do better!
Kamala voters in a nutshell
This post could actually be the psy-op. Spread the idea that infighting is happening to then create it
“Left unity” IS the psy-op. The notion that leftism is some sort of singular concept that is harmonious with all forms of itself. What a great manipulation. There are good ways to do leftism and bad ways. Anyone who tells you different is intentionally trying to create divisiveness of the known differences in approaches to leftism to agitate leftists and gaslight them into thinking there is an ideal and that the ideal is only achievable if they all somehow agree. But as they never will as this doesn’t make sense, these contradictions positioned as truths are the manipulation used to destabilize any movements. For any success of movement leftists will need to agree to disagree or one will have to over power the other.
Infighting amongst leftist has literally existed as long as leftist ideology itself has existed. You can’t learn the history of the left without reading about dozens of examples.
And that’s why fascism seems to win. Seems like they can compromise as long as the people the don’t like suffer
Good good, let the hate flow through you. Purity is what matters, not affecting change. Go now, inquisitor.
Be Democrat
Compromise on all your ideals and field the most mediocre candidate
Lose to Donald Trump
You Lemmy progressives need to be honest with yourselves. If “not a fascist” wasn’t enough to make you vote for Harris there isn’t a candidate in the universe that would have passed your purity test. It’s almost like you actually wanted Trump to win.
Lemmy Democrats did their strategy, lost, and blame leftists. Talk about being in denial.
That strategy won the majority of elections since the 90s.
Trump lost by more in 2020 and repeated his strategy just to win. Too bad he didn’t follow the leftist strategy of complaining and not trying to win.
He complained a lot. He complained after winning. The difference is, Trump campaigned to win right wing losers… The problem is… so did Kamala.
This constant blaming the left for Democrats’ failure is the true psyop, and you seem to be foolish enough to play along…
He didnt just complain without trying to win. Like leftists are popular for doing.
Kamala campaigned to everyone. Trying to reach as many voters as possible because that is a prerequisite for winning elections and a reason leftists don’t win elections.
Russia needed Trump to win for their invasion. It is public knowledge that their strategy is to create infighting in the US so we are more divided and don’t get anything done. This is done by trying to push the right further right and the left further left.
We already know the GOP campaigns with the goal of preventing Dems from winning.
Kamala campaigned on making the wealthy pay their fair share so the billionaire class didn’t want her to win.
These are the obvious sources of “psyops” that are rampant on the internet right now.
This constant blaming the left for Democrats’ failure is the true psyop
This doesn’t even make sense.
Oh I voted for Harris (and am also not the person you replied to) but “Compromise on all your ideals” describes the trajectory of the Kamala candidacy quite well. And that’s best case. Worst case, as the atlantic suggested way back in 2020, she didn’t share those ideals to begin with.
And that sprint to the right that she made didn’t move the needle on R voters at all. She should have campaigned like she wanted Democrat votes, but she didn’t. She talked a lot about her Glock and got cozy with the war criminals of the prior generation, didn’t talk much about climate change, and even gave space on stage to Liz Cheney at the DNC instead of even giving a single minute to a pro-Palestine Democrat, to try getting some of the basket of deplorables to pick her. None of them did, and it didn’t make Democrats very happy either.
Maybe if the Democratic candidate had acted like she wanted Democrat votes, this map would have looked different in the end.
Maybe if the Democratic candidate had acted like she wanted Democrat votes, this map would have looked different in the end.
Ah, professional politician eh? That’s some rarefied air there.
Keep going… What drives turnout? Citizen campaigning.
Maybe if leftists didn’t spend the year leading up to the election protesting the better candidate we would have seen a better outcome.
So Kamala had no duty to motivate the people she wanted to vote for her? That seems a bit backwards from how I’ve always understood elections.
I agree that “Not Trump” actually should be enough in today’s climate - but it wasn’t in 2016, so why trot out that playbook again? Seems shortsighted and stupid, almost as if corporate donations and Republican voters seemed more imporantant to the DNC than Democrat voters, who were just expected to be “in the bag.”
I see the BlueMAGA crowd has moved from “you have to vote for Democrats” to “you can never criticize Democrats”
Moved? That’s been the policy since 2016.
The proper assignment of blame is on Joe Biden for not getting out of the way to have a real primary.
People weren’t given a choice for their candidate. Excitement drives Democratic turnout, and they’ve been tamping down expectations for decades now. There’s nothing exciting about the campaign strategy of “we’re not Donald Trump.”
Blaming leftists for the failings of liberals is what keeps pushing the party establishment to the right.
Seriously lemmy can be wild in this regard. I got a death threat for implying democrats were better than Republicans.
I’m not in love with many of their policies, they don’t go nearly far enough, but like damn they’re obviously the better choice
I bet you most leftists that use alternative media like lemmy DID vote for Harris. You’re screaming at all the lemmings still over at Reddit…
If “not a fascist” wasn’t enough to make you vote for Harris
if they want this title then maybe they shouldn’t have been arming and defending the extermination campaign in Palestine
I’m convinced they are bad actors. With all the damage Trump is doing they still complain about the alternative like they are campaigning for the GOP.
I voted for Jill Stein, who’s anti-genocide, among other things. The left needs to support more anti-genocide candidates.
The Democrats policy on Palestine seems pretty fascist to me.
But every single mainstream Democrat is just as fascist outside of the US as the Republicans. They proved that when they didn’t do anything about a genocide. They are also increasingly fascistic in the US as they demonstrated by being better at deportations than the Republicans. (Also, regularly breaking with Democrat voters to side with MAGA in Congress/Senate).
The Democrats are the same team as the Republicans, they just use different language.
The problem is that the democrats have been name calling for so long, that calling anyone fascist holds no weight. No one cares, they simply don’t believe the democrats.
And so you need a bigger platform than “I’m not a republican”.
Compromise on all your ideals and field the most mediocre candidate
If Kamala is mediocre what does that make Trump?
Secondly what is it about Trump that most strikes him as a conservative? What conservative values do you think he thinks about and values the most?
If Kamala is mediocre what does that make Trump?
You are aware that Harris lost right?
Yes, it’s possible to have 2 shit candidates you know :P
In Australia we are frequently voting for the ‘least worst’ candidate, we have mandatory voting so very few of us have this idea in our head that we need to run out and enthusiastically support a candidate, we just vote for the one who we think will do the least damage, in Australia Kamala would have won easily
Yes, it’s possible to have 2 shit candidates you know :P
Yes, and Kamala lost.
In Australia we are frequently voting for the ‘least worst’ candidate
Australian doesn’t have first past the post voting! What are you talking about!
Australian doesn’t have first past the post voting! What are you talking about!
I don’t get it, how does this preclude having shit options to vote for?
Because the entire justification for “lesser evil” voting is that America has first past the post voting
Trump represents what Republicans want to vote for.
But this is about ideals and values of the left wing vs right.
What values and ideals does Trump have that appeals to them?
Six Trump voters on why he won their support in 2024 https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyg5jdgzy1o
Lets see these “ideals” and “values” that Trump voters hold dear to their hearts:
They don’t like immigrants, the border crossings
They thought he could do a better job with the economy
They thought he could do a better job with the economy
‘With his grandkids, I see the softer side’ <- Lady is on drugs I assume, going to ignore this one
They thought he could do a better job with the economy
Doesn’t like war, likes a strong man leader
So 3 out of 5 were about the economy 1 didn’t like illegal immigration 1 didn’t like war
So people voted largely for Trump because they felt the economy does better under him
And this looks to be backed up with this poll:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/651719/economy-important-issue-2024-presidential-vote.aspx
Economy Most Important Issue to 2024 Presidential Vote
The economy ranks as the most important of 22 issues that U.S. registered voters say will influence their choice for president. It is the only issue on which a majority of voters, 52%, say the candidates’ positions on it are an “extremely important” influence on their vote. Another 38% of voters rate the economy as “very important,” which means the issue could be a significant factor to nine in 10 voters.
Is this a conservative value? a good economy? do leftists not value a good economy?
I am not a fan of Bernie Sanders but I guarantee he would have won. The Democrats refused to give people the policies they wanted.
do you think aoc would have won as well?
Yes but like Bernie her goal is to not run so she can sheepdog leftists into the Democratic party. Not to run and win.
Difficult to raise this amongst friends but one 2022 story came to mind
https://www.vox.com/policy/385549/trans-sports-transgender-biden-harris-democrats-titleix
PS: obviously my conflict is about “fight for 1% of athletes vs. lose election to Hitlerguy and harm like 50% of the population”, to oversimplify greatly
Liberals will say shit like this and then be baffled why leftists don’t want to fall in line behind the party of moderate fascists.
You throw trans people under the bus and you also lose, or at least depress turnout, of everyone who supports trans rights. You also make it clear to every minority that if they’re in the crosshairs next, they’ll be sacrificed next for the same reasons of political convenience. Jews represented <1% of the population of Weimar Germany, and you may be familiar with a poem about what happened after they came for them.
Furthermore, by ceding ground to the Republicans on this you make them look correct and you discredit your own side for having previously denounced their position as bigoted, which makes people more likely to support Republicans. We saw this happen with the border, when the Democrats turned from “Building the wall is racist” to “We’re the ones who are actually going to build the wall,” they didn’t win over moderate republicans, instead they lost on virtually every demographic. The people who are pro-immigration hated it and the people who are anti-immigration saw their views as being validated and if they had any lingering reservations about voting Republican, those reservations vanished.
Framing politics as a Trolley Problem is extremely stupid, and fundamentally not how the world works, it’s liberal brainrot and one of the reasons Democrats are worthless. They literally did this “strategic” sacrifice with Palestinians and immigrants (and it’s not like they fully supported trans rights either) and they still ate shit with the worst electoral map since the Republicans took California. When throwing trans people to the wolves doesn’t work, which minority will you sacrifice next?
reminds me of 2003, when the bush regime convinced everyone that their marriage would somehow be worthless if they let the gays get married.
and it worked, the stupid fucks bought it. iraq paid badly for it tho, whoo hoo…
“fight for 1% of athletes vs. lose election to Hitlerguy and harm like 50% of the population”
Republicans who got on the “Freak out about transgender policy” lost their elections in droves in 2022. Several big swing Senate seats flipped because guys like Blake Masters and Herschel Walker couldn’t stop screaming slurs at campaign rallies. We’ve seen Republicans scrub out over and over again by downing too much of their own kool-aid.
Democrats didn’t lose 2024 because they were too nice to Transgender people. They lost because they were too nice to Liz Cheney. Harris made a big show of aligning with neoconservatives on everything from immigration and trade to military policies against Russia and China to the stubborn endorsement of the Palestine genocide. All of this shit polled worse than support for Transgender civil rights. Harris had no problem throwing the country in front of Hitlerguy to endorse the tear-gassing of Columbia University and the Kids In Cages on the Texas/Mexico border.
Even then… even if you can argue with a stack full of polling papers that Harris knew with perfect certainty and well in advance of the November vote that an impassioned speech in defense of transgender athletes would doom her campaign and subject the US to Hitlerguy, so what? She didn’t do this and she still fucking lost.
So she and the rest of her squishy latte liberal cohort threw away a big chunk of LGBTQ support for what? What did Dems gain by embracing reactionary policy?
So she and the rest of her squishy latte liberal cohort threw away a big chunk of LGBTQ support for what? What did Dems gain by embracing reactionary policy?
Why are you asking what the dems gained? You’re the one now worse off?
What did you gain by not voting for her?
On one hand I don’t fucking like Liz Cheney… on the other hand… I think you should welcome (almost) anyone against an enemy like Trump. I thought that at the time, and now with the additional information we’ve gained since then (and I personally learned) only reaffirm that to me. We don’t have to glorify Liz Cheney later.
But not voting for Kamala because the coalition allowed Liz Cheney in is probably just as dumb as not voting for Kamala because somehow… Trump isn’t WORSE on Palestine?
There is not a “single issue” that won for them beyond voter manipulation. They did the same thing as 2016 and did targeted ads and segmenting people on social media. Mass voter suppression in the south (Russian bomb threats in Georgia… the disenfranchisement across multiple states…etc) FB & Twitter owned by them. TikTok in question but absolutely started showing even more right wing content after the election. I’m sure one issue (or two) might be more influential, but that’s only because of the coordinated reach of their voter manipulation.
We have ALL been targeted with propaganda and segmented from each other. They continue to do it now. They lie and Fox News, which something like 60% of the country, carries their lies for them. Bots barrage social media every where. Tech-bro toelickers and tankies promote right wing, anti-globalist propaganda everywhere. (Anti-globalism is primarily right wing, Kremlin propaganda to disconnect The Americas (primarily US ofc) from Europe).
Be wary of bots that feel like they’re your ally, too.
"But the 63 per cent of the German people who expressed their opposition to Hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united, however temporarily, to stamp it out.”
Excerpt From The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich Shirer, William
I think you should welcome (almost) anyone against an enemy like Trump.
I would much rather have the people who hate the Cheney’s guts in my coalition than have the Cheney’s. How many people do they even represent? Who doesn’t hate them, and with good reason?
But not voting for Kamala because the coalition allowed Liz Cheney in is probably just as dumb
First off they didn’t just “allow” Liz Cheney, they actively campaigned with her. But secondly and more importantly, it’s not about whether it was right or wrong for that to influence people’s decisions, it’s about the fact that it likely did. Call it “dumb” or “irrational” all you want, if voters were all rational and intelligent then maybe we wouldn’t have to think or care about messaging or image at all, but that’s not the world we live in.
The influence of “bots” is highly overstated and is basically just a way of dismissing legitimate criticism and preventing any kind of self-reflection or learning from mistakes.
It was a pathetic attempt to reach “middle of the ground” voters.
Did you not read that I opened with I hate Cheney? I suppose “don’t fucking like” may not have been forceful enough.
I agree they probably leaned too much into it. A “thanks for speaking Cheney.” is probably all I would have given her. If that’s your only point, fine I agree. But I wouldn’t exile her support entirely. If you’re mad about that instead of focusing on Trump, you’re losing sight of the problem.
I didn’t say it wasn’t influential. If you stopped responding emotionally or with the intent to derail and attack, you’d realize I literally said specific topics could be more important than others (once again, Palestine another highly controversial one I see you completely skip past). But it’s the reach and targeting of these messages to those they resonate most with that is why they are so dangerous. Peter Thiel; Trump investor & close to all the tech bros funding things; was the 1st outside investor in Facebook. It was never “liberal.”
Nothing I said implies we don’t think about messaging. By now the inaccuracy of your attacks come off as firehose of falsehoods.
Your dismissal of bots and propaganda is not only stupid, it’s dangerous. Propaganda has influenced EVERY democracy.
Tell me, which of these was not reportedly influenced and pushed by Russia or is not Russia friendly and has it pushed ties with Russia, both by propaganda & by literally influencing people with money? (Both people to lie for them in media, and politicians to vote for them)
MAGA/US, Brexit/UK, Marine La Pen/France, Bolsonaro/Brazil, AfD/Germany, Polliviere/Canada… the list goes on.
Are you blind? A bootlicker?
And absolutely nothing I’ve said has ever indicated we don’t have a lot to deal with internally. But to fail to acknowledge that we wouldn’t be here without our enemies helping these guys get here is to deny reality. I’d rather not drink the Kremlin Tea, thanks.
read the quote at the bottom of my first post again. That is the most important message anyone can take away from these posts.
Did you not read that I opened with I hate Cheney?
I never claimed otherwise? Very confusing reaction.
If you stopped responding emotionally
Excuse me? In what way was my response “emotional?”
or with the intent to derail and attack
By now the inaccuracy of your attacks
What “attacks” are you talking about? All I did was disagree with you on certain points.
Propaganda has influenced EVERY democracy.
They’ve got propaganda, we’ve got propaganda, everybody’s got propaganda, and always has. The Democratic party has plenty of money to get their message out, the problem is their message sucked and didn’t resonate.
MAGA/US, Brexit/UK, Marine La Pen/France, Bolsonaro/Brazil, AfD/Germany, Polliviere/Canada… the list goes on.
All of those were driven by material conditions, yes propaganda had an effect but the reason the propaganda resonates and has influence is because of people being dissatisfied with the liberal status quo.
Every statement you’ve made has been in bad faith, purely attempting to derail the argument and make readers glaze their eyes over.
You’re doing it now, even in this response.
You’re just hand waving things and saying all things are equal. I’m sure the $160 million from cryptobros and $250+? million from Elon made no difference at all. I’m sure Elon’s $1m fake-raffles to convince people to vote didn’t make a difference. Fox News is watched by 60% of the country. Got a similar stat for a “leftist” program you can show is like actually propaganda?
Bet you’ll argue that because we were imperial, we should let Russia and China be imperial and conquer Taiwan/Ukraine too?
No, the NEOliberal status quo. We have never been a leftist nation. Our Overton window is very far to the right. Bernie is like a single step to the left of the center. Check out any other major democracy.
Part of this entire argument we are having HINGES on the fact that many corporate donors are basically conservatives even if slightly “socially liberal”… cause their money comes first. That even, they too, focus on. Both the neocons and neolibs have maintained this order since the 60s until MAGA came along to reshape the presidency into a “CEO dictator.”
You’re basically telling me to choose MY words carefully. Right back at ya, buddy. Attacking "liberal"ism is straight kremlin propaganda.
You, the tech bros, and Russia get along well it seems.
The influence of “bots” is highly overstated and is basically just a way of dismissing legitimate criticism
Ah, bootlicker/propaganda bot it is.
Well, that didn’t take long 🙄
Every statement you’ve made has been in bad faith, purely attempting to derail the argument and make readers glaze their eyes over.
I love when people just say shit. Like, you haven’t pointed to any actual reason why anything I’ve said is “bad faith” or “emotional.” Really just rolling out all the go-to methods of categorically dismissing any and all criticism, huh?
Fox News is watched by 60% of the country
Lmao no it isn’t. You got a source for that number?
No, the NEOliberal status quo. We have never been a leftist nation. Our Overton window is very far to the right. Bernie is like a single step to the left of the center. Check out any other major democracy.
Yeah, no shit? Why are you telling me this as if I don’t already know?
Attacking "liberal"ism is straight kremlin propaganda.
Lmao. A liberal is a supporter of capitalism, as a socialist, of course I’m opposed to liberalism. I guess every socialist in the world is a “Kremlin propagandist” in your view.
Why do you think the right-wing, free market “Liberal Democrats” of the UK are called that?
The problem with this is that it assumes Democrats have no agency. Democratic politicians have treated trans issues like those crusty old male Dems who don’t like saying the word abortion.
Dems have never provided loud and full-throated support to trans issues. Go watch the recent John Oliver video on trans sports. There are very very good arguments on why excluding trans people from sports is incredibly anti-scientific and just thinly disguised bigotry. But Democratic politicians have never bothered developing the talking points to defend trans people, like they have for other core issues.
Look at how Kamala responded when asked about trans issues. She didn’t provide full-throated support to trans people. Her reply was simply, “I’ll follow the law.”
Democrats have completely failed to defend trans people. They’ve quietly passed a few state level anti-discrimination laws, but in terms of rhetoric, they’ve completely ceded the space to conservatives. The only mainstream voices talking about trans issues have been the anti-trans bigots. The Democrats have instead just called the whole issue a distraction and hoped it would all just blow away.
They’re right that it is a distraction, an artificial one concocted by Republicans. But that doesn’t mean they can just ignore it.
Propaganda works. And if you don’t do the hard rhetorical work to fight it, it eventually does change public opinion.
Propaganda works. And if you don’t do the hard rhetorical work to fight it, it eventually does change public opinion.
yeah it never works on you, no sir… we’re all a lot better because everyone stood by their principles and punished the bad biden/harris team, yep, so much better.
those trans people, they’ll be safe now.
those kids in gaza, I’m sure now that trump’s won he’ll make sure they’re safe.
Yeah this all punishing those bad bad dems you’ll show 'em.
stupid fucking liberals, when will they learn their lesson.
working out great.
Trans people were being maimed and killed under Biden too, nothing changed for the trans people in the red states, violating the 14th amendment under Biden’s watch. Trump won’t care, Biden could have cared and chose not to.
Kids in gaza were being murdered and bombed under Biden too, nothing changed for them when a blue guy signs off on bombs or a red guy signs off on bombs. Trump won’t care, Biden could have cared and chose not to.
One is honest in being evil and hating people. It’s in the name “Republican.” The other pretends to tolerate you, and then throws you under the bus come election season to appeal to the greater evil’s voting base, who wants the most evil and won’t vote for a lesser evil.
keep telling yourself they’re the same bud.
lie to yourself all you want. calling it the same is ridiculous and you know it.
ya done fucked the pooch on this one so bad it’s going to wreck the whole fucking thing, but hey, you stuck to your convictions, no matter how short sighted.
gonna block you now, have a wretched life living through the consequences you brought on yourselves.
I voted Harris and said Republicans are worse, but sure man, your bubble won’t pop when Trump uses America’s decades long polices domestically. Sorry I acknowledge trans people outside of the month of November every 4 years.
Hey look another privileged firstworldoid telling minorities that He Knows Better
We would have been better off without trump. you’ve empowered the fuckwit.
great fucking work.
YOU would have been better off. The brown people your country genocides? Business as usual .
But you’re a coward and you would have gleefully sacrificed them if it mean’t notbhaving to be bothered fighting fascism at home.
Sorry your favorite genocider lost, coward
it feels hypocritical to post about infighting while inciting arguments and heated discussion, and not offer any solutions.
The solution is to stop letting perfect be the enemy of good.
You have a strange definition of perfection.
And and even stranger definition of “the good” tbh.
And what would that be?
Seems like you’re characterizing the dems as “good”. Aren’t they the “lesser evil”?
I don’t consider Democrats as leftist, and I thought the subject was leftist infighting
I’ve misunderstood you then. Can you explain who is perfect and who is good in your analogy?
semantics - and thus we fight. point proven. Orange Hitler didn’t win against left. left couldn’t agree if they save democracy or defend democracy so they did neither
You say semantics, but I find that liberals genuinely can’t seem to decide if their political leaders are “super good people, actually”, or “admittedly terrible war criminals, but not as bad as the other guy”.
This is why leftists consistently lose elections.
Low-key truth here
