While this seems to be more aimed at scooters and the like, I’ve been waiting for electric vehicles and renters to become an issue.
Landlords are going to try to avoid putting in electric car charging points for as long as they can. They simply don’t want to spend the money.
The issue is a little more nuanced than that. Most buildings can only install a few EV chargers before they need to upgrade the mains, and if that needs to be done, the transformers likely aren’t adequate, and the local grid may not be able to withstand it as well.
The owners costs ends at the transformers, taxpayers and the energy corp are in for the rest, and until the energy corp upgrades the grid and transformers, building owners can only do so much.
I hadn’t considered that aspect, thank you for the information!
No worries it’s a concern for even single family homes as well, a transformer can normally supply 4-6 houses, but put an EV in every house and they can only do 2.
Most people in non-modern homes will likely need a new panel and mains, same issue applies to the transformers and beyond there as well. Homeowner is responsible to the transformer.
If the infrastructure can’t handle it, then upgrade the fucking infrastructure! Politicians will fall at voters’ feet to build new roads, highways, etc., but when it comes to the green energy transition, there’s no problem too minuscule to be ignored!
I’ll happily admit that there are going to be many issues in the green energy transition; we should acknowledge them, but we should also strive to address them, rather than throwing our hands up in the air and idly promulgating the status quo.
They are upgrading it, as people need it and as fast as they can ahead of planned upgrades.
There shortages on parts, so most are being done as required, but to think it’s not being upgraded (in most places, local bullshit aside) is just pure ignorance.
I’m sure people are trying to address the problems, I’m not saying that’s not happening. What I find maddening however is the double standard between how issues are handled when it’s fossil fuels vs. green energy. Every tiny issue with green energy is breathlessly amplified, while there’s no shortage of idiotic solutions to resolve issues in carbon-based energy infrastructure.
It’s this atmosphere that I’m trying to raise awareness of and change!
Switching from one type of car to another isn’t a green transition. Car production still creates enormous co2 emissions, paving everything for cars makes heat islands, tires produce piles of particulate pollution, and so on. Fixing the car pollution problem means moving to other forms of transportation, not just slightly-less-bad automobiles.
First you have to get people out of the habit of being an active driver, and get to the point where their EV drives them to work. Once that becomes norm then taking a light rail transit is an easy sell. If you try to just force a new transit mode on motorheads they aren’t going to accept it. Small environment savings and having large generating company’s scrub pollution is better that leaving it up to individual car owners, and in places with Hydroelectic power it makes sense to ditch fossil fuels
Also, on 2400w an EV can charge a significantly large amount overnight. You mightn’t need a charge point in the first place.
2400W x number of occupants is still some series draw on their main panel.
Their point still stands that their mains would need an upgrade.
It’s almost not worth the hassle for level 1 charging because it’s so slow though. Might as well put in a level 2, and even then, you’re not often charging every night unless you’re putting serious miles on your EV daily. I’d say one level 2 charger for four occupants/EVs would be reasonable.
If everyone trickle charges every day it’s make a more even draw from the gird which is easier to supply. The equipment is also cheaper for the car/parking space owner.
Places without heated parking RIP
Im west coast Canada where central heat is more of a new home thing, every previous home has baseboard heat in every room. This is true in condos and town homes also. So every winter the grid handles every non new single family dwellings use of baseboard electric heat. I don’t see this being an issueto have an EV that can charge in late hours or at lower draw if needed
This is no different from the widespread adoption of electric clothes dryers, water heaters or domestic home air conditioning. Electrical distribution is never static.
It is far different, the scales at play just aren’t the same and a lot of distribution centers are already near capacity even if the grid can supply enough.
Your not wrong that it’s not static, but it’s ignorant to believe that it’s even on the same scale as any of those adoptions.
Add in there has been a transformer shortage since before covid started…. Yeah it’s not the same.
It’s exactly the same. You’re adding one 30-50A circuit to residential that will be used intermittently, and primarily during off peak hours. Very, very few vehicles will need a full charge every night, and the software on the charger side typically meters in current at much less than capacity if it’s on a schedule, as the lower the current, the less heat, and less stress on the battery . Large charging stations are on par with commercial/light industrial, and we add that sort of load all the time.
I’ve worked for power utilities for 25 years on the generation side with some on the T&D side. The planners spend a pile of time on analysis to determine where additional load and/or sources are being added and triage based on that. When old stuff is scheduled for replacement, sometimes an upgrade is warranted, sometimes not, based on that analysis.
A lot of electrical equipment currently has long lead times. I’ve got quotes for up to 70 weeks on some stuff. It’s been a side effect of relying on dodgy suppliers overseas. It has been improving.
“The grid can’t handle it” is a bullshit argument that is easy to sell to people who want to keep their IC cars. The difference between highest demand and lowest demand in Ontario this week was 7000MW, if everyone charges their car at night there is power available AND it helps increase the base load which is good for the gird operators.
Even individual buildings may not need to upgrade their main service even with rapid chargers, the operators just need to keep in mind not to run the oven, dryer, AC and car charger at the same time.
Yes the power plants can pump out enough, but not all transfer stations are able to handle the load, each individual hub, may not be able to handle the load.
It’s far more nuanced than this even, but don’t believe everything everyone is selling you, everyone has an agenda and no one is going to tell you the entire truth.
If an entire block suddenly goes EV one night the infrastructure isn’t there, it’s slowly being updated which you don’t see, but there’s issues out there.
New Brunswick had a program in the 1970s/80s to get people to switch to electric home heating due to the oil shocks. That was far more ambitious than what is being proposed here.
Everyone in the burbs run their AC full tilt all summer and the grid holds up just fine. An EV charger used overnight, when your AC runs less, would present no more of a load than the daytime high usage. Stop pushing anti-electrification bullshit, or move to Alberta, they love that shit.
A friend showed me his overnight Tesla fill up. 6 bucks. That really doesn’t seem like much power used compared to everyone running baseboard heaters here in the winter.
Seems unfair to make everyone pay for Chargers only the wealthier people who can afford EVs use
That talking point is a bit out of date - the average price for a car int he USA (for example) is quite a bit higher than base EVs now. They’re cheaper to manufacture and gas vehicles won’t be able to compete. The only missing piece is infrastructure for charging in some places.
It won’t be long before EVs are the cheap option. Tesla for instance is supposedly putting out a cheap option soon, but I’m not holding my breath.
Tesla is probably a good one to bank on, though. The gigacasting process shaves a LOT of manufacturing cost.
That’s good to hear, but I think it’s disingenuous to say that EVs are the cheaper option when talking about people who aren’t within reach of even the cheapest new cars. Until we start seeing used decent condition EVs under $10k they’re still out of reach to a lot of people. It sucks because these are the same people who would benefit most from the lower operating costs.
Sure. But that’s something that’ll come with time. We should be preparing our infrastructure for five-ten years from now, not this year. If we wait until EVs are sub-10k used, then we’ll have a massive infrastructure crunch.
Yes, you can make an argument now for EVs being a rich person plaything, but that’s a snapshot in time. The curves are trending downward fast.
In a few years, gas vehicles are going to be for the rich assholes who refuse to get with the program and demand their precious gas stations get subsidized by the government more than they are already. It might not be too long before gas stations in city cores are completely uneconomic because 20%+ of their customer base evaporated.
There will almost certainly be a period where people are trying to dump their gas vehicles, selling them way below market, which will make them attractive to the less wealthy, which will also very much increase the temptation for governments to subsidize gas infrastructure. :(
That will further increase the price pressure on gas vehicles, they’ll be screwed by the new cheap EVs AND the cheap used gas market.
Lol Tesla’s cheap option will be made of cardboard judging by the quality of their expensive models. Also the cheapest EV in my city used is roughly 15k. About 10k above my budget
Give it a few years. EVs are inherently cheaper to manufacture, and economies of scale are kicking in like crazy now. “Lol” is not exactly a great response to that basic fact.
Most buildings we have installed them they’ve made the people that want them pay to install them, now this may cause an issue when they leave and fight that the charger is theirs, but at least the wiring is in place for the next.
Some buildings are installing public ones, and it’s no different than other amenities, no one in a building utilizes all the amenities. It’s a red herring in the end to claim that.
Either the costs are shared between renters, like pools and other benefits, or they are charged to the people who use them. It is very likely that a portion will be shared by all with additional cost on use like parking often is.
Man, it’s really unfair to make me pay for the roads on the other side of town. I never drive on them!
How is that even remotely the same thing?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Tenants’ rights advocates are raising legal concerns about a Toronto building complex that’s banning electric transportation vehicles from the property, including in units, the garage, parking spaces and lockers.
Notices were posted this week at 110 and 120 Jameson Avenue in Parkdale, owned by Oberon Development Corporation, to alert tenants to the ban.
The Residential Tenancies Act guarantees a tenant’s right to the “reasonable enjoyment” of the premises, Kwan pointed out.
Beyond that, said Kwan, if a person has a disability and relies on an electric vehicle due to mobility restrictions, such a ban could infringe on their human rights.
The devices are also environmentally friendly, said Mason, adding having more Torontonians rely on alternative transportation is helpful to combat climate change.
“This is a great solution for families who live in the buildings because it makes life more affordable by eliminating the cost of private car ownership,” said Ian Klesmer, the director of strategy and grants at TAF.
The original article contains 915 words, the summary contains 157 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Electric vehicles are better than combustion but they are not “environmentally friendly”
Let’s not propagate this argument disingenuously. Electric cars aren’t perfect, but a quick check of the history of the combustion engine will tell us that sufficient time and R&D will take care of many of the mining and materials issues that exist in current electric car manufacturing processes.
Those are not the primary long term problems with those. Electric cars still require roads, tires, parking lots, etc. That’s why they are ‘better’ due to no direct emissions and higher efficiency, but they can never be ‘environmentally friendly’ because they will always need expensive and harmful infrastructure.
Plus they tend to be heavier so they cause even more damage to road surfaces.
Even the heaviest electric car has nothing on a tractor trailer.
Most of the damage to road infrastructure comes from big rigs.
In sure that eases the mind of the children mining for lithium
You are confusing cobalt with lithium.
Also the existing oil industry also uses cobalt
Better a few children mining lithium then fossil fuels killing the whole planet.
Jesus
There are scenarios where this is reasonable. If cars are parked below housing units. The risk of fire from the electric battery that can’t be controlled, might be too great for their insurance carrier.
Maybe if it were 2009 lol. EVs don’t randomly catch fire anymore. Even if it were true, with what Toronto landlords charge, they can afford an insurance bump.
You mean Canadian landlords. I pay more for a town house in London Ontario than most people in Toronto 😂. Canada is fucked.
Ah, a fellow victim of the London housing market. Shame how the only thing less than 450k is a literal burned out crack den.
And after paying all that money you still have to live in London 😔
The remaining fire risk/safety issues tend to be with dodgy cheap batteries used as replacements in ebikes and the like, and there are ways to mitigate even those risks (fireproof charging lockers, anyone?). Electric cars are much more heavily safety-tested, and I would say that at this point in their evolution they’re no more likely to catch fire spontaneously than an ICE car.
Plus, some of those parking spaces are probably reserved for visitors, right? You think they’re going to go out and rent an ICE car just to visit this place? There will be EVs on the premises anyway, as they gain market share in general.
