If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yes, but there’s a disconnect between helping directly and helping indirectly. Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing, which is antithetical to the above commenters train of logic.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that it’s not something that people should learn to do… but it’s not always something you can solve by making that connection.
Many people don’t want advice and that’s fine. I complain not because I want them to fix it but because it helps me organize my thoughts and verify that my complaints are valid so that I can see if it’s something I can fix myself, often though complaining about bad things that I cannot fix. I am perfectly capable of handling problems as an adult, but people need to vent so they can actually focus on a solution.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
I think my problem is also we’re told to be empathetic and emotionally present. So what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I find this much more difficult than solving whatever the problem is, because, maybe I’m weird, but I feel pretty much all the suffering around me as if it’s happening to me, and especially when it’s my wife suffering.
what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I know that isn’t actually what people think they are asking for, but it sure feels like it so often.
Thanks for putting this into words for me.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
Rubber ducking, not just for programmers. Listen, acknowledge what you’re hearing, ask open ended questions (not leading), and learn from and about their experience. You’ll grow closer and both people can gain a lot from it.
Interesting. How is that?
If you are asking what rubber ducking is, it’s the practice of explaining your issues to a toy as if it were a coworker. Explaining your issues to a coworker forces you to organise your thoughts and problems so that wherever you tell makes sense, and a lot of times the act of organising pushes you to vetch the fault in your logic, or the issue that needs fixing, the missing part…
Except…
I feel bad for my rubber ducky. It still helps though! The number of support/bug report emails that never get sent because I figured it out from the same thought process is not 0. I read this once, but talking/thinking about the problem, just the problem, for 5+ minutes before trying to come up with solutions can be really helpful.
I see. Do you like rubber ducking?
Not really, I just info dump my partner on my coffee break and since she’s not a dev, the process of simplifying the issue so she somewhat understands and shortening it so she doesn’t get too bored is helpful enough.
And how does that make you feel?
Also known as being a good listener. Ideally it goes back and forth, too. But there’s a time and a place for everyone to take on the listener/encourager role.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect your significant other to act as an inanimate object and receive your frustrations without reacting like they normally would. It’s great if you have that kind of relationship, but forcing it is not ok.
You are not supposed to be an inanimate object. You’re supposed to listen, acknowledge, talk about the topic at hands. Empathize, ask questions to better understand the problem. Show interest in your significant other, show them you care about what is upsetting them.
Sometimes people get stuck on the “have you tried the most basic and simplest answer?” questions and it’s frustrating as hell. You can just ask “wanna brainstorm about it?”, at least you’re setting the mood in the right direction.
For anyone struggling with this, two hints that might help you frame your role better:
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Listening is the solution. By trying to solve what your SO told you, you are actually trying to solve the wrong problem. Their real problem is that their brain needs to say things aloud to someone in order to correctly process it’s own thoughts. Therapists make a frickin’ living off of that quirk of our brains and it’s the actual problem they come to you with. Even better: By listening you can not only advise on solutions, you can be the solution! Neat, huh?
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Listening and solving aren’t mutually exclusive. If you stick to listening first, your SO might actually come to a point where your advice is wanted. Pro tip: Once their thoughts slow down, ask if they want to hear what you think about the issue. From my experience, the answer will be “yes” very often. That way, your thoughts will actually reach your SO and not get blocked by frustration outright. Yet, as with everything else: No means no. So if you get a no, don’t try again, shut the fuck up, alright?
Them’s a lot of rules. I think I’ll just choose to remain single.
Choose’s doing a lot of work in that sentence ;)
Or yet another way to look at it is that when people are venting it’s not the actual problem that they’re venting about it’s the uncomfortable emotions that come about as a result of problem. Very usually, someone is doing something that makes their lives harder but it is within a very specific environment, e.g. work, school, some kind of committee, where there are rules against settling disputes by right of arms. So even though I might have a really elegant solution for ‘solving’ that particular dispute, what I tend to be listening to long term tends to be, 'Coworkers… can’t live with 'em, can’t kill ‘em’. To which the correct answer is obviously not ‘You could solve that problem with Piranha Solution - removes organic material from the substrate’, it’s ‘Yes, we do have to put up with annoying people for a long time sometimes.’
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I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she’s venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to. Most people I’ve asked the question will usually laugh and say, “we’re bitching right now.”
I respond with, “bitch away.”
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn’t ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This “gift” was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said “Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can’t we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?”
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don’t know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I’m also very introverted, back then I didn’t have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn’t even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn’t even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Probably your mom.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
People notice you more than you think they do. You may think you didn’t talk to people much but that means it was non zero and people tend to listen.
People will want to dwell on the problem for a bit so they can fully feel their feelings. They feel cut off and stunted if they’re not allowed to.
“Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?”
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
“Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?”
Eeeeehhhhhhh I have a feeling Lemmy is going to skin me alive for this but I can’t help myself.
It’s not about the nail.
It’s funny, but she’s right, it’s not about the nail. Never was.
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn’t in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we’ve seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, “that’s really tough” or “I’m sorry about that honey” would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we’re not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we’re invested?
It’s a tricky balance and there’s likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
Oftentimes though, if I’m sharing frustration with something, I already have a solution. It’s just that it’s hard, or inconvenient, or stressful. If my partner comes in immediately with solutions, the discussion immediately turns to practical discussion of the solution I have in mind vs. what my partner thinks is best. If I already have a viable solution in mind, this is not what I need and puts me on the defensive when I’m already stressed and hurt. Especially if my partner doesn’t fully understand the problem yet. This has the capability to turn into arguing very fast because it presents the opportunity for disagreement without dealing with underlying emotional states.
However, if my partner instead listens, starts by supporting me emotionally, “I’m sorry, that’s tough”, and lets me get my piece out, I’m already going to feel a bit better, especially if I can trust my partner not to assume I just haven’t thought about it enough. Much of the time, all I need is reassurance and confidence-building in the solution I already have - mirroring on an emotional level without focusing on finding better practical solutions is a perfect way to do that. After I’m freaking out a little less and have laid out the full problem and it’s completely understood, I don’t mind some “have you tried X” or “what would you think of Y” conversation. But the emotional work and full understanding of the problem has to come first for that to be productive.
Damn. Downvotes for a perfectly cogent explanation. Those of you downvoting consider that not everyone wants, needs, or has the same relationship dynamics or even personal philosophies towards emotional work and reactions to problems.
Unprocessed feelings always come out in some way, not all healthy. Suppressing temporarily or venting are only part of the equation. Choosing to process negative shit with or in front of a partner is something for each person and couple to figure out.
I mean kinda is true though? Ignoring an easy fix just so you can keep complaining about the problem makes it feel like you don’t actually care about the issue, you just wanted any excuse to complain at me. On our end, the problem and feelings of frustration surrounding it weren’t “invalidated” until you decided continuing to be frustrated was more important than having a possible answer to the issue.
We want you to stop complaining about it because the problem is addressed and isn’t a problem causing frustration anymore. NOT because we’re just annoyed hearing you talk and want to shut you up and invalidate your feelings about the problem.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
It’s the relationship equivalent of watching conservatives go on and on and on and on about underage pregnancies when multiple institutional remedies are right there, and they proceed to ignore those solutions in favor of getting to continue complaining about the problem.
Why is it my responsibility to validate feelings you yourself are telling me are just kvetch that you actively choose to keep being mad about instead of addressing to not waste energy on being angry.
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that’s just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that’s not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can’t help but feel like we aren’t getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there’s a breakdown, that’s not always on us as listeners.
some many years ago my wife and i had a conversation about this.
sometimes it needs to be communicated to me that she wants to vent. this is different than seeking solutions to a given problem.
I think that’s an important thing that seems to get overlooked when this topic comes up. It’s a two-way street- if you just want to vent, be sure to say so. Don’t get upset when your partner doesn’t just assume that’s what you want.
Of course, the “two-way street” thing really needs to be emphasized, since the person venting is likely frustrated and can’t always be expected to be clearheaded enough to remember to communicate it properly. Also, if all they ever want to do is vent, y’know…maybe that’s a pattern you should pick up on eventually (the hypothetical “you,” of course. Not the person I’m specifically replying to :P)
I’m a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that’s not what the complainer wants.
Step one: get lighter fluid.
Step two: set desk on fire.
Step three: quit.
Step four: woah, hold on I was just joking!(Well, about the fire at any rate…)
Lighter than what?
In case you were seriously asking, “lighter fluid” is just fuel/gas to quickly (an accelerant) start a fire. So the fuel you might find in a cigarette lighter. Typically when people say “lighter fluid”, in this case, they mean the giant squirt bottle that you use on a barbecue pit to get the coals to light faster.
I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I’ve heard is say something like “Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?”. Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
Thank you, yeah it’s like sometimes you just have to work through it before you hear some suggestions.
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Whenever I complain, I usually already know what needs to be done to solve the problem(if there is a solution). Venting is honestly more for emotional affirmation than anything else.
Of course, if I would suggestions or help, I would not hesitate to ask for them.
