- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
so many comments claiming this post blames or makes fun of men and incels that i went back and reread the whole thing… what the fuck are the lot of you even responding to‽ there’s nothing like that in the post, and on the contrary it says men are victimized by this. Jesus, some of you are really willing to take anything as a slight. beats self reflection i guess.
Lemmy becomes completely irrational whenever the words “male loneliness epidemic” appear, once you read that around here (and it shows up in the OP) you can skip the comments as nothing good will come out of the thread.
Eh, I agree and disagree with the image text. There are similarities, yes, but I wouldn’t view it quite as closely connected as the post implies. Main reason being that there’s a difference between using verbal abuse to control someone’s actions – like what it implies an abusive boyfriend would do to control his gf – and using generally third party reference points to construct an admittedly grim world view for a broad demographic group. The manosphere approach is closer, I’d say, to the marketing done by the women’s beauty industry in this regard.
Ie. there are certain trends / norms that women tend to cycle through, and certain beauty standards that people generally seem to expect from women (without digging in to that!). The beauty industry leverages that and puts out products re-enforcing those norms / helping ppl align to those norms. There are lots of people that find alternative body types attractive, and/or that have more realistic expectations. But if you’re a woman who’s obsessed with beauty trends, it can become an unhealthy obsession leading to potential issues like anorexia.
In that it’s toxic when taken to an extreme, and in that its fundamentals are based in “reality”, the beauty industry’s similar to manosphere rhetoric. The manosphere’s “short guys get no girls” mentality is backed by many short guys experiences with dating (especially online, where they’re pre-filtered!); similarly, a fat girl with lopsided facial features will have difficulty, making the beauty industries products/message more enticing/convincing. They both leverage the generally negative real world experiences of their target audiences to ‘ground’ their message. Both movements also have equatable super stars – “Supermodels”/OnlyFans girls/Twitch Streamers/Whatever who are deemed the most beautiful women, and “Tech bros” who are fathering armies of children and touting right wing eugenics-like ideals.
Mostly pointing this alternative comparison out, because I think there’s a bit of grey on the manosphere stuff. An obsession with beauty standards/industry stuff is unhealthy, but in moderation its ok/beneficial; an obsession with “men’s rights”/“men’s issues” is unhealthy, but in moderation it’s likely a good thing. More guys being more conscious about their health, and getting more exercise, isn’t a bad thing after all – and that’s one of the themes in that manosphere clusterfuck.
be 5’ 7"
not attractive to most women (aww)
every airplane seat feels like first class
live longer on average (aww)
workout once a week and look buff
no car is too small
sleep like a king in beds of any size
women generally trust you more easily cos your presence is non-threatening
You know it’s not that bad of a trade. Y’all sixfooters have fun with the girls.
It’s true. Women trust me partially because…wtf am I going to do to them? Sit on her head? Bite her ankles? So, I’m one of the only two being driven by my co-worker nowadays. Bonus points for having given up on relationships, because even if I was in the mood for those, I don’t have time for no personal life.
That’s why I basically ignore criticism nowadays. I see all criticism not made by AI as being bad faith.
this post brings up some good points, but I want to be clear that turning men into women hating incels who will die alone is the GOAL of all this rhetoric. it doesn’t have to be that way.
if your reaction to this post is “women bad” you should take a step back and realize they’ve already gotten you to take the first step down the pipeline.
“OMG these people are incel losers they have no worth and deserve to die!”
“Incel losers” commits a horrific crime because they were treated like they have no worth and deserve to die
“OMG can you believe it? We should bully them harder, that will fix things!”
Maybe the fucking problem is people treating these poor people so horribly. We want to PREVENT such things happening which means addressing the root of the problem and trying to catch people who could fall into those destructive manoaphere circles BEFORE they get the idea to commit mass murder. I’m PRETTY positive the solution isn’t to bully them more.
I thought we agreed to treat every life as worthless, unless they have a couple of million dollars on them, regardless of gender or race?
A part that complicates things is that incels, contrary to what the name implies, choose to be incels. Also, working with incels specifically could end up giving a perverse incentive (or whatever it’s called when an effort to reduce something instead becomes an incentive to increase it) to be an incel to get help.
thats a volcel, no?
I realize you’re probably just making a joke but the reality is that there are few people so ugly that no one would have sex with them. Even if you keep your standards high, I’m sure there’s many cases of someone whose own mother would cry at the sight of that managed attract a model who is just into that.
But the attitude is very off-putting, more so than whatever physical characteristics they think disqualifies them from love or sex (and a good number of them aren’t even unattractive but just have no self-esteem and hate themselves so much they either can’t believe someone else would like them or that someone who does must have big problems of their own or is lying to use them).
Even the niceguy attitude is offputting, and the incel attitude is pretty much that but replace the sadness with anger and the depression with rage, and add a bunch of BS masquerading as the science of attraction that proves they aren’t attractive and ignores that it’s subjective and that there’s this weird “so ugly it’s cute” category that some/many people seem to have (though it usually applies to animals rather than people).
deleted by creator
weird take. There’s certainly a feminist supremacist sphere active in demonizing and diminishing “less attractive” men, and women, feminist or not, have always enjoyed the privilege of men seeking their friendship with more passion than other way around. Friendly women of low attractiveness levels have more opportunities to have their sexuality validated.
This is just a supremacist take on demonizing men further.
Are you saying the manosphere isnt targeting men’s insecurities in a bully-like fashion?
It’s both. Both are the issue.
Which women make fun of men in a systemic way? Can you please name them so I can look them up?
Look up #KillAllMen. Don’t worry I have more. The real question is how much do you need until you admit it ??
Definitionally, if you’re looking at individuals it wouldn’t be systemic…
There is a systemic gender advantage of opposite gender wanting to be your friend more than the other way around.
Thank you you’re right , I used the wrong word.
Still interested to know which women prey on men’s insecurities like the Fresh & Fit podcast bros and Andrew Tate do.
I don’t know what the manosphere is. PUA/Andrew Tate try to elevate men’s self esteem. Whether denying men’s insecurities is targetting them is grey area. Incels as a defeated group moaning to each other about defeat, get piled on with a lot of supremacist hate, mostly from women/women’s groups.
Where is the “bully like” fashion? It can’t be “acting like a role model”.
Chritofascists, who primarily serve Zionist supremacist establishment, or Feminazis, lie to their audience, but aren’t bullying their adherents. They are boosting their “deserved supremacism” by diminishing the rights/humanity of their “inferior” enemies. Supremacists sell “you too can have my advantages if you join us”. It can be wrong without it being classified as bullying.
Podcast episode #120 (Invicil) from Reply All should be required listening in this day and age.
Invicil: How a shy, queer Canadian woman accidentally invented one of the internet’s most toxic male communities.
Man, Reply All was so good… It really bummed me out when I heard that PJ is a major bully/asshole.
Was that ever substantiated? I saw some comments saying that it was just a rumor, I didn’t really look to hard into it because the podcast was over by then.
This is top tier gaslighting. I dont know why people bend over backwards to blame anyone but women for the 6ft meme. Manosphere reacted to a real thing and grifted off it growing it into political campaigning but is was real sentiment experienced by men. I’m not short and I see it happen all the time. Women are open about it.
Before the 6ft meme the redpill meme for guys was to laugh at tall guys and call them skeles until height became a desirable trait and it reversed with short dudes getting laughed at for being manlets.
It used to be niche and restricted to internet cesspits but YouTube and tiktok really brought the most toxic parts of the redpill, pua and lookism into the mainstream. It started ironic as a joke mocking lookism but kids got sucked in hard and lines blurred.
I’m still pissed these people have managed to infect so much of the male fitness community.
I dont know why people bend over backwards to blame anyone but women for the 6ft meme.
Your really going to blame all women for that? I know tons of women who haven’t even really given it a passing thought.
Even if it were a common sentiment, <15% of men are 6ft anyway so most will have to settle.
They never said the word all
They also never specified a woman or group of women either.
Why shouldn’t he ??? women came out in droves during men’s mental health awareness day & to demonize it & no serious pushback was given.
I don’t know where you hang out, but I didn’t see that at all, that’s really unfortunate you experienced that. Where did you see people demonizing it? I’d like to avoid those places.
Men’s mental health is just as important as anyone else’s. Maybe even more so right now, as a group, many seem to be in crisis.
Corpos have targeted women’s insecurities for over a century to sell their ideas/products. They’ve gotten very good in recent decades capitlizing on this for men. It’s culture war bullshit so they can sell you fascism.
Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, mainstream news. The list goes on
Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, mainstream news.
So from social media, which amplifies fringe and minority opinions as if it is a reflection of real life.
Callin it as Fringe minority opinions is a common deflection tactic. They are still people saying things.
Do you realise how social media algorithms work?
I mean come on this is like saying “there’s toxicity in my league of legends chat!”. that’s the whole point, especially with musk at the top.
if it’s affecting you this much where you are developing these incel thought patterns you should get off the app.
First stop being a sex-obsessed creep. Imagine saying you don’t get to have opinions because you didn’t have sex.
You’re part of the problem. Invalidation is also a common demonization tactic.
where did I say that? I’m not trying to invalidate anything I’m just saying that those apps are well known echo chamber for those thought patterns. little weird to just bring up having sex like that, it’s kinda exactly what I’m talking about.
seriously though. if you have these thought patterns you should take one hell of a look in the mirror. I almost went down that path as a teen and it is ugly and harmful. there’s still time to change.
women aren’t out to get you. these things talked about online like height and looks mean nothing in the real world. that’s not an exaggeration, it really is more about your personality, so I suggest you try to understand why yours seems unlikable.
this isn’t a personal dig, as I said I almost went down that same path in highschool and I’m very glad I got out of it while I could.
I think there’s more to the manosphere than this.
Maybe, but I don’t think that’s relevant to this post.
Bullshit, Incels, like everyone else, have access to information, they are choosing to gravitate towards these manosphere wackos because it’s the easy way out, a convenient scapegoat instead of actually trying to address THEIR issues. They have zero critical thinking skills and again I put that on them. I have access to all the same propaganda, the women only wanting men 6ft plus, meanwhile I have two ex wives both who were taller than my 167cm giant height.
It seems to me that the existence of incels is evidence of some sort of mental health crisis among this demographic. Blaming someone for not having the adequate emotional maturity doesn’t seem like the right move if the goal is to make these people better. They need therapy. I guess in my mind they occupy the same space as drug addicts/alcoholics except they probably do more harm to those around them. They need to take responsibility, but they need a support system that will actually help too.
I agree with much of what you said, I posted that while angry and so it came across unsympathetic. Mental health (I’m a recovering alcoholic, 7+ years sober after 27 years of hell before I took responsibility) is key to a majority of these kids. We also have to acknowledge the fact that many of these kids haven’t developed any social skills, in my day, you had to talk to people, you made friends, you learnt social norms by trial and error, there was no screen to hide behind under an alias. No one told them the internet isn’t social interaction. Unfortunately, society doesn’t seem equipped to deal with this phenomena. I appreciate you calling me out on that.
While what you said is true (at least from the second word on), your argument boils down to “the truth is out there so propaganda only works on people who want it to work on them”. And while I wouldn’t say that is necessarily false either, it does drastically oversimplify things.
And even if anyone who does fall for it deliberately so, it’s still good to know that there is a propaganda effort going on and that inceldom and the manosphere aren’t just happening because that’s how men are. They likely started naturally (because there absolutely are men like that, and women and others) but it’s all being amplified to pull in as many as possible.
That is absolutely NOT how men are, at my age, i feel like I can speak on behalf of ALL real men in that statement. But as usual, a small and very vocal minority makes us all look bad.
Study on men who are chronically single showed the common denominator: having extremely low confidence. Now that I think about it, this post corroborates the target profile of negging by abusers-- victims who have low self-esteem.
There are, for the lack of a better word, not so good looking men or short men having relationships, in one form or another, with ridiculously good looking women because these men have confidence without being too bragadacious. Of course, there are shallow women who go for looks alone (same as men), but there are just as many kind-hearted and less shallow women who prefer men with personality over looks and vice versa.
Low confidence and self-critical thoughts are what impedes chronically single men. Sometimes, it is indeed on the state of mind. And this vulnerability of lonely men is exploited by manosphere to create incels. I don’t have a solution to address the problem but this is a general observation.
yea, incelism is all about blaming women for all thier inadquecies, the reason they dont have a job, or they not tall, or they dont have large dong. or they are not hot. they could be looking the wrong places, if a psychopath can have a SO, so can “incels”
Manosphere being a toxic shitshow of harmful beliefs and self-sabotag is nothing new.
But in 1 way, it is very different to an abusive boyfriend. The abusive bf doesn’t necessarily start off being abusive or not as obviously so. The bf adapts to you and slowly undermines your confidence. The manosphere has it in their advertising material. The people fall for the manosphere are not slowly manipulated and abused by the manosphere. The manosphere is the new abusive boyfriend after the breakup with the last abuser. When the abuse already has been normalised and kinda wanted because at least it is “familiar”.
So what is the first “abusive boyfriend”?
So what is the first “abusive boyfriend”?
For me it was high school. Constantly being treated like shit by my peers for being weird and quiet really fucked me up. Fortunately things got better in college and I didn’t fall into the manosphere crap but I very easily could have had I not found people to give me a break and help me learn to act more “normal” without being abusive towards me.
From what I could witness, most likely the “first abuser” is most likely a close family member, either the (step-)father or some uncle or grandfather - people who themselves believe in such values they call “traditional”.
Father’s need to support their sons, show empathy, and actually engage with their children in a meaningful way. Hug your fucking kids!
Elephant Graveyard said it first.
so is it just impossible for a woman to do something wrong or?
Yeah, but also (step-)mother or some aunt or grandmother, maybe even girlfriend. Not only men are pushing these “traditional” values.
This is true, but if even just one family member protected them from this harmful rhetoric, it saves hope for the kid.
The 6-ft thing is so bizarre because 6-ft is above average. If a man claims to be 6 foot is probably 5 8 or something.
I never understand why height matters anyway I know an absolute giant is about 7 foot and has a duck under doors. But he’s not exactly Hercules levels of attractive. He’s just tall
As a guy that’s exactly 6’ tall, when asked how tall I am I’ve has numerous women argue with me that I must actually be 6’2" or 6’3" because I’m definitely taller than so-and-so who’s 6’. Lots of dudes lie about their height, and it’s not a recent phenomenon… I remember when the internet didn’t exist and it happened back then too. It’s worse now however.
Had the USA actually embraced metric, 7cm+ discrepancies wouldn’t exist
It has been my observation as a 5’7" tall man that it correlates with the rise/requirement of dating sites.
Prior to 2012, no women made mention of my height. The average American man is 5’10", I’m slightly below average, yet I’m still 3 inches taller than the average American woman who stands at 5’4". My 5’0" tall girlfriend my senior year of high school had to stretch up on her tip toes for a kiss. Hell, when I was out of college and finishing up flight school, I dated a girl who was my height. She never brought up my height. The very few girls I’ve been with since haven’t mentioned it.
You know what happened in September of 2012? Tinder launched.
It wasn’t long after that the default way of boy encountering girl transitioned from meatspace to Tinderspace, which meant she experiences his height and overall size not as a visceral “look how my hand fits in his” or the feeling in her back when she stretches up for a kiss, it’s now some numbers start with a 5 and some numbers start with a 6, and 6 is more than 5.
Lemmy tends to be a space where being left wing isn’t enough, you’ve got to be so left wing you can barely see the dim red glow of the position light or you might as well be a goose stepping Nazi. “If you’re so far left, kiss this painting of Komrade Lenin” kind of place. Which, in practice, makes this the kind of place that will say “People don’t make friends because there’s a lack of third spaces, which makes in-person relationships difficult if not impossible to initiate or maintain, hence post-school adults having few if any in-person friendships and socializing entirely online especially among younger generations.”
…Except on the subject of young men and their romantic exploits, because a boy born in 1999 is the only person who can be to blame for the all-time low earning potential, all-time high cost of formal education, all-time high cost of living, all-time high bullshit to even get a job, all-time high physical beauty standards for men, and all-time high competition given the largely fake landscape of social media, and the ones who say “fuck this shit” you shame as “incels.” Which is shaping up to be an utter winner as a feminist tactic, it’s gaining women so many civil rights the world over, at this rate there’s gonna be a female pope by 2027.
You started off getting so close to self awareness but then veered into incel talking point.
Dating sites aren’t real. It’s another simulacra.
Also if something is is spouting right wing talking points then it’s a right winger. You don’t need to along with this insane mental gymnastic concoction of a theory that leftists went so far left they became far right. Occams Razor. Right wingers are right wingers.
This kind of comment is a textbook example of the incel cult narrative. Start off making sense. Then dump the heavy rhetorical bomb.
Not gonna bother refuting your points because that’s the whole point. To drag the discourse into incel domain. I know you know.
Yup, that’s why tate sold the worst dating advice in the world while being a sex trafficker, ensuring repeat business.
The solution to many problems in our Society is to make fraud laws stronger and prosecute them more fully
and “get rick quick” schemes with extremely bad trading advice, which require high memberships.
