Archive article: https://archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
How can the war realistically end?
A return to the pre-war status quo. The withdrawal of Israeli troops, presumably in return for the hostages, with either Hamas or another group equally hostile to Israel in control of Gaza. This is the worst-case scenario for Israel, because it represents a total failure to eliminate the source of more potential October 7 attacks. I suspect it’s the worst-case scenario for Gaza too, since future attacks on Israel would lead to future destruction in Gaza.
The destruction of Hamas and the establishment of a Gazan government friendly towards Israel, perhaps by the Palestinian authority or a coalition of Arab states. Very difficult and failure-prone, but a pathway to peace in the long term. I had hoped that this would be the outcome when the war started but it isn’t what Netanyahu is trying to accomplish and by now I’m not sure there’s enough goodwill left for it to still be possible.
Permanent Israeli occupation. I don’t think Israel can maintain such an occupation - it would be extremely expensive in money, lives, and international goodwill. Netanyahu and his supporters seem to think that Israel can, but many of them seem to make plans reliant on divine intervention.
Expulsion of the population of Gaza. Egypt wouldn’t accept that without a war. Maybe Trump thinks he can find another country that would, but even if he did (unlikely) then the logistics of moving two million people would be extremely challenging. I think this outcome is effectively impossible - another one of the “divine intervention required” plans. However, it would be a best-case scenario for Israel. The gain in territory means little, but no longer having Gazans as neighbors immediately ends the conflict for good, which no other outcome does.
If (2) isn’t going to happen then (4) may be the best case scenario for everyone. Even the people being expelled and their descendants would probably be better off than they would be if they remain in Gaza for for many more decades of conflict. However, I very much doubt that it can happen.
Best time to break the blockade was the 90s, the second best time is now.
So your solution is annihilation, let me guess you’re a liberal Zionist or something like that?
There’s only one solution, free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Palestine needs to be decolonized and Palestinians need to be given back what rightfully belongs to them.
Israel as a state should have never been established and this apartheid genocide state just needs to stop existing. All the rabid Zionists who can’t accept that Palestinians are human beings with equal rights can make use of their dual citizenship and leave. Or move to Germany or Hungary or something who seem to love them anyway.
There needs to be Nuremberg process to try all the war criminals and put them behind bars.
As for those who are willing to coexist with Palestinians can stay, but if they live on stolen land or in stolen property they can’t stay there and have to return that to their owners and move somewhere worse.
That’s (5) and what humanity has to strive for.
It’s also not realistically achievable without somehow convincing Israel to willingly dismantle itself, given that a) a significant disparity of military power exists between it and Palestine, which isn’t likely to reverse any time soon given that it is nigh impossible for Palestine to build an economic base sufficient to rival Israel while under effective occupation and b) that it is an open secret that Isreal possess nuclear weapons, making some kind of foreign invasion suicidally untenable. Actually launching those weapons would be an extremely dangerous move of course, but a state facing a clear and imminent outside threat to it’s existence is exactly the kind of situation where someone might contemplate it.
The most likely thing to work out that I can envision would be if foreign support can at least shore up what remains of Palestine enough to give it sovereignty and at a stretch some means of deterrence against further attack. All that really achieves admittedly is a two state solution, which doesn’t result in a Palestine with particularly favorable geography, but if it results in peace there’s the hope that the hatred involved can cool with time and new generations until some kind of union can be proposed without the resultant state being at risk of collapsing into a genocidal state again.
Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany and all the colonies of the empire didn’t dismantle themselves because people asked them to do so. This has to happen through boycott, divestment, sanctions because I don’t think more war would be the answer, and I am against violence in any form.
Make Israel collapse by putting so much pressure on them that they just can’t anymore. Our governments won’t just do this, so we have to do it ourselves. It’s a slow process, but it’s a process and with every escalation by them it speeds up.
Unfortunately it doesn’t help the Gazans who are being annihilated right now, but the future I outlined is the only future Palestinians deserve.
And armed revolution
I get the idea, and I’m not opposed to things like that, given that they don’t seem likely to worsen the situation and might extract some kind of concession from Israel, but I don’t expect that it’d be likely to actually work. Israel is not, for it’s similarities, exactly the same as South Africa and Nazi Germany (the latter of which, for that matter, didn’t exactly collapse just because of economic sanctions), and sanctions have their limits, else for example North Korea would have collapsed long ago, along with a whole host of other regimes that have gained the ire of significant parts of the world for one reason or another.
South Africa was a nuclear power backed by the same countries that now back the genocide. It was hard to imagine back then that the apartheid would end, but it happened.
Yeah as I said, I’m against violence so I advocate for the boycott solution and not for the Nazi Germany treatment even though some might feel like the Zionists would deserve that…
South africa was not an occupation and still used armed resistance. Armed resistance was always a big part of ending occupation.
It would be so great if occupation was ending without a single casualities this is not the case
One other option beyond BDS (and not involving an invasion) would be countries removing diplomatic recognition of Israel and expelling all Israeli diplomats.
This is of course easier said than done, but it’s far more viable than any other alternative courses of action.
I recommend you to listen to Ilan Pappé. Israel already is on a trajectory of collapse. The society has many inner rifts.Many people who can afford it leave. The economy would fall apart without the lifeline from its allies. When it comes to anything outside of mass slaughtering civilians, invading countries without leadership and blowing up infrastructure, the IDF is a quite incompetent military.
It will not collapse tomorrow and maybe not in 10 years. But in the long run the zionist project is failing. The question remains how much more genocide Israels allies want to squeeze out of the opportunity.
Doesn’t need to be ‘willing’.
Dismantling it unwillingly requires someone doing it have sufficient military power to defeat Israel by force of arms. Who might that be?
You mean a Bantustan? We’ve already seen this happen in the West Bank and, surprise surprise, it did not lead to peace.
Setting aside how morally reprehensible and utterly stupid this is, did you forget the West Bank?
So… a nation and a religion that was defined by its thousand-year exile by an evil empire forces another nation into a thousand-year exile as the acting hand of another evil empire.
Please understand that this is, on every conceivable level, insanely fucked up and flies in the face of both reason and morality.
The best solution would be to have an integrated, secular government and plans for reparation, return, and reconciliation.
There’s no reason to assume that ancient israel was any less evil than ancient rome.
Furthemore, that doesn’t define judaism. There were thousands of years before and after roman conquest. Zios focus on the roman empire because that’s their shitty justification for genocide, theft, etc.
This isn’t any more fucked up than the genocide of native americans for example. Unfortunately there’s nothing special about empire genociding people. But I don’t think these zios are lobbying for native american rights, because zios are genociders.
Lastly this doesn’t have much to do with “religion” versus “sucularism”. Zionism was largely founded by the non-religious. It’s goals are not religious but purely political/genocidal. The most “religious”/spiritual jews largely reject the zionist regime. Religion is a tool of empire, but the more fundamental problems are empire, colonialism, racism, etc.
Do you think maybe not giving an ethnostate unlimited veto support and munitions is an option before your 4 tiers of capitulation of, at best, a return to the apartheid that resulted in Hamas?
Even if they managed to aquire no. 2, many Israeli settlers won’t accept this and will keep driving off Palestinians. With media attention focused on gaza, hostages, and the genocide war or Endlösung of the Palestinian question, those settlers openly drive out or outright kill people living on the land longer than Israel exists. Peace in Gaza won’t stop this.
Hamas isn’t the problem. Both Hamas and the PA tried peace and a 2-state solution along 1967 borders. The Arab League offered peace and normalization to Israel on similar terms in 2002. Israel, specifically the right which keeps winning elections, rejected all peace attempts. Netanyahu’s party the Likud adheres to the ideology of Jabotinsky and refuses any Palestinian statehood at all:
Jabotinsky wanted to go further and claim both banks of the Jordan river. Today in Israel talks of annexing Lebanon, Syria and beyond as part of Greater Israel are becoming more mainstream.
Israel won’t stop fighting upon gaining the historical borders of Israel & Judah. That was never the final goal, it’s just the current justification.
The Israeli state is sort of doomed to be in a constant ethno-religious war with its neighbours, because-
This means that Israel presently relies on an external backer for its security (the US). Its number one policy goal is to change that fact. As a fascist regime, it’s only really got one tool, which is to invade its enemies and engage in settler-colonialism (google Greater Israel). Like it’s doing in Gaza. The fringe ultra-right in Israel are already calling to annex Lebanon, to “eliminate Hezbollah”.
This is also doomed to fail and cause even more misery.
Makes you wonder if Israel is trying to grab as much land as possible and eliminate as many people who might have competing claims on that land as possible before the US collapses economically (and with that their giant military budget) now that Donald Trump is doing his best to make that a reality.
This is false
this is mostly true but they tend to be anti-Islamist
Yeah I think there are some issues with my analysis, esp my understanding of the relationship between the Egyptian & Syrian govt, and their nations’ islamic fundamentalists. Neighbours isn’t the best way to frame it, but, regional opponents? Chiefly: Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran & Arabia (though the Saudis have a sort of dual character, since they have to appease the west).