toxic masculinity, tons of people aware of the bad things but most people think its taboo for men to think about their social reformation.
Some of my more well versed lady friends basically describe it like “the women can’t do all the social reformation, men gotta do their part too”
Would be nice to make this thread into a list of resources, like groups, YouTube channels, websites, books, whatever.
It would be very helpful to define these things for people too I think, I don’t think there is a name for men’s social revolution yet, or at least one that is well known.
One resource that jumps to me is a book called “The Way of the Superior Man”. While I don’t agree with or remember everything in it, I remember it being something that helped me become a better man. Also Aragorn from Lord of the Rings as a fiction role model, little harder for a non-fiction one. Someone mentioned healthygamerGG, Henry Cavill?
The Way of the Superior Man is an excellent read. Again, not all of it is necessarily correct, but the basic idea of polarity/equal and opposite absolutely hits the nail on the head.
You don’t need masculinity. If you identify as a man, that’s as manly as you need to be.
The point isn’t about moving the goalpost so you win, it is meeting up with a better standard.
I’m 59 now, and a cancer survivor. Also a man.
I look back to the me in my twenties, and think what an ass I was. Not as a man, but as a human.
The positive aspect? I’m not that ass anymore, and my hope is in another ten years I’ll see the current me as an ass.
Introspection and personal growth as a human. Sex or gender agnostic.
The problem in your logic is that this would require a set definition on what masculinity is. What if one doesnt meet those criteria?
Not only does a definition exist in various forms, or at least enough of one to figure it out but the assumption I’m making is that none of us meet the criteria and should aim to be better people.
I think a key trait of masculinity is developing the capacity to decide for yourself what that means, whilst not imposing it on others as expectations, on any gender
This assumes that it means specific things like enjoying flowers, its leaving behind the boyish immaturity.
Sorry, you lost me with that.
I agree with the second part, that growing up is a big aspect of becoming a man.
I’m saying I don’t agree with it being specific things
IMO “developing” “masculinity”—“proper” or otherwise—is a fool’s errand. I don’t much care what various & sundry people think “masculinity” is or isn’t, and I’m not much interested in meeting the performance criteria of their varied & contradictory masculinities. I don’t hang out with the kinds of people who gatekeep gender.
It is a word to describe a state of being, and a state of being that is a good one to have when understood correctly. Like for instance you probably don’t like talking to immature people.
Toxic masculinity (femininity) are negative behaviours associated with men (women), but anyone of any gender can have toxic masculine traits / toxic feminine traits. They are labelled toxic masculinity (femininity) to emphasize that men (women) should be particularly cautious about developing such traits. Learning how to recognize such traits in oneself is important. No gender is gatekept here – the only gatekeeping is “don’t be toxic.”
That said, the terminology is provocative, and it’s the kind of thing which drives people away from the left, so we should really rebrand it.
I find the point being looking at toxic traits and seeing what the normal version of that is. In example: Men showing emotion being viewed as weak, and other men bullying or belittling those that do. Obviously you’re not going to pursue being more emotional, but you can be there for young boys that are in your life and tell them it’s okay to experience these things. Teach proper coping mechanisms, or learn them yourself if you need to. Another example would be wardrobe. My dad was huge on black being some sort of gateway to god knows wtf he thought. Also thought dudes wearing nail polish was absolutely unacceptable. Am I going to go around trying to force myself to wear those things now? Nah, not my style, but if my kids want to wear certain colors or paint their nails I’ll make damn sure they done feel immasculated because of those choices. Idk it’s weird to me to paint things definitively as ‘healthy masculinity’ and more of a ‘these behaviors obviously aren’t normal’. Healthy masculinity would be just returning to being a normal, feeling, caring human being. Maybe my view is skewed or something, idk. Happy to hear what others think.
You are entirely right in my opinion, society is pretty sucky at making things right for people and so for now this concept of cultivating a mature personality aimed at men is as close as we can get for a simpler way to describe to a general group of people
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Healthy masculinity is understanding that many younger men look up to you, so you must be a role model for them. Manifest that in whatever way you believe is best, and you are a healthy masculine person. (This is just, like, my opinion)
This a good one
Work first on being a good human.
That will make you a good (and attractive) man or woman.The archaic concept of masculinity or femininity itself is wretched.
People worry far too much about what others think of them and what mold they should fit into. Be yourself. Be a good, caring, empathetic person with convictions and passions and hobbies. Become proficient in one or more things so others find you interesting. Learn how to do things without the aid of technology. Read books. Travel as far as you can. Give a shit about yourself and your community.
If you’re struggling to fit a mold that society is telling you you should fit into, you’re already lost. That doesn’t mean you can’t find yourself. It means that mold probably isn’t right for you. And there is nothing wrong with that. If others have a problem with you not being what they expect, that’s their issue to resolve. The sooner you’re able to let go of societal concepts, the more free you’ll be to be the best version of you.
Don’t confuse being a good man and being a good person. It’s the same thing. There is nothing you can do to become more of a man that won’t make you more of a person.
People worry far too much about what others think of them and what mold they should fit into.
Become proficient in one or more things so others find you interesting.
No offense, cause I think your message is good overall, but you contradict yourself in the same paragraph.
Trying to learn things so others will like you more isn’t a great way to do it. I know because I tried that. My self-love became conditional with that mindset, and there was always something else I could come up with I had to learn or change about myself before I could be lovable.
My old therapist called me out on it. He said there’s nothing wrong with pushing yourself to improve, but if you don’t balance that with unconditional self love it will simply lead to depression.
Not worrying about how others perceive you and having something interesting to share with others is not contradictory.
I don’t have to like you or agree with you to listen to something you feel passionate about to share. Have you heard of YouTube?
If you’re weird and you have nothing interesting to share, if you lack the confidence to speak with others, then I’m not very likely to give you much attention.
Learning something “so others will like you” is exactly what I’m suggest you do not do. You should learn something so that you have personal confidence in something. The more you become proficient in something, the more confident you’ll become overall. Accomplishing goals and overcoming obstacles breeds confidence. It may help your social interactions if that thing is less niche and more universal but not exclusively.
This is why people ask others what they do for a living. They want to hear you speak about something they presume you’re passionate about. There’s a hope to engage in a conversation or to learn something from you. If you have some niche hobby or job and you’re good at it, people will listen to you. You may even find people come up to you at a party to hear more about what you feel so strongly about.
Don’t ever do something solely because you think it will make others like you more. If you’re not doing it for yourself, you’re not able to put all of yourself into it. You’ll never own that thing. You’ll just be renting it for others.
It was the “so others find you interesting” part I was reacting to. It sounds like that’s not what you meant, so don’t worry about it.
Gotcha. I probably could have phrased that better.
The archaic concept of masculinity or femininity itself is wretched.
That works for me, but some people really like the construct of gender. Transpeople just being the most visible case.
If you want to get really into sports and car mechanics, or really into makeup and pastels that’s fine. Just don’t grow the corresponding bad emotional self-care or inauthentic relationships.
Yeah this is the most best advice in this context tbh. Sometimes it is helpful to meet people where they are too which is often doing things targeted to men.
Work to develop emotional stability and security in being oneself. For me, that was many years of therapy learning to love myself. I got there in 2019, but the work continues. I’m the healthiest, mentally and emotionally, that I’ve ever been in my life. I truly did not believe I could ever make it as far as I have on this journey.
In more general spaces I find bringing it up instantly summons incels, unfortunately.
Yeah I could see that
The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn is a perfect example of positive masculinity. Strong, brave, a good leader, emotionally available and connected to all his friends. Sam and Frodo are also very positive. Books and films are good. Cinema Therapy YouTube channel has a few episodes on the lord of the rings and they are all good watches. The Aragorn one covers positive masculinity I think.
Aragorn also abandoned his duties for decades because he was overwhelmed with feelings of inadequacy. No matter how good you are, it is also ok to forgive yourself for not being perfect or having genetic skeletons in your closet.
Fuck kings but I’m going to defend the rightful King of Gondor for a minute here.
Aragorn in the movie might be said to have done this, although that’s also debatable. Book Aragorn is different. He didn’t abandon his duties due to feelings of inadequacy, that is just in the films. In the book Aragorn didn’t immediately claim his title but not because he felt inadequate. Aragorn went around for decades traveling and working throughout Middle earth, and Arda generally, to organize and gain support among the people and sectors of power. He didn’t want to claim it just because he was born to inherit it, he wanted to work for it in some sense. He was fulfilling his duties throughout Middle earth. That being said, he was always very confident about being king and that he would return, but they didn’t feel that would play well in the movie so they made him that way to make him more sympathetic.
Embrace the skeletons, have them work for you, even!
If you haven’t read The Will To Change by bell hooks it is definitely worth a read. It is a cure to the toxic gender wars of the 2010s and today and is a compassionate look at masculinity as a whole. I highly recommend it.
“Masculinity is not the opposite of femininity, but rather the opposite of boyish immaturity.”
Oh man I cant believe I forgot to mention Adam Savage, that dude is a legend of a role model. He uploads to youtube nearly daily
I think it would be great if more men read (or just read summaries of) basic feminist texts, especially Judith Butler and people of her ilk. Before I realised I wasn’t a man they helped me. I think the deconstruction of gender that feminism offers serve men just as much as women - it made masculinity feel like less of a prison (nevermind that I ultimately largely moved more feminine).
I remember reading authors like John Stoltenberg, the aforementioned Judith Butler, and some perspectives of feminism/masculinity in a working class context.
I think too many people treat masculinity as specific things. This was a quote I stumbled upon just now.
“Masculinity is not the opposite of femininity, but rather the opposite of boyish immaturity”
Like flowers as a gift for example, everyone can enjoy this, the semantics of how it is enjoyed is different for different people.
That other people seem to be misunderstanding your question, just providing examples of men with positive masculinity (although I would say Iroh is a good one, on that topic), rather than resources for men to become better more positively masculine. Is that what you mean, correct?
Hmm yeah that’s a good point, I guess I wasn’t clear, I also didn’t really know what I was thinking exactly when I made the post whether examples or resources were best.
I think both is good
Yeah iroh is freaking awesome
For those that don’t know about iroh in atla A video about uncle iroh and masculinity
