“But why would they care about MY data, I don’t do anything special”
Anyone outside of tech when I even passingly mention privacy
I don’t have anything to hide. Do YOU have anything to hide??
Probably my most hated sentence in the privacy conversations
Do YOU have anything to hide??
“Yea my bank information, passwords, personal identity, identity of all my loved ones. But hey, if you hate having security and love being blackmailed and hate everyone who you have ever made contact in your life and wish to make their life hell then you do you and stay far the fuck away from me. We don’t know each other and we never will”
There was some segment somewhere about the fact that the NSA has all your nudes.
And then you always get that one girl saying: “Yeah whatever let them look at my nudies, I dont’ care”…
I actually enjoy that sentence, because you can ask them for the pin code of their bank card.
If I don’t have anything to hide then why do they need to record me?
“But it’s so convenient” is a close second
What’s the counter to that sentence then?
Every time I try to explain why this is a dumb sentence using the door lock analogy I always get rebuffed by it.
First, when you get into these arguments, always start from the viewpoint that these people do not see any worth in their data. Their convenience is worth way more than any privacy breach. That’s why your goal is usually to convince them that privacy breaches can be a huge innconvenience for them, use their selfishness to advocate for their self-interest.
Quick example, what defines something that needs to be hidden changes constantly with different governments and regulatory bodies. There’s no telling if your current data won’t be illegal or something in the future, causing you problems. That’s why it’s important to have protections for your data to begin with so a future government can’t just unilaterally decide to trample all over your rights.
Basically, see what they care about and try advocating from that viewpoint, not your personal viewpoint. There’s a good chance you’ll have a line of argument.
I find that I have more success convincing people if I put their self-interest first and foremost instead of trying to explain some grand ideology. People want something tangible, not a hazy ideal. It’s only when something affects them that they may change their views.
I say “yes, and you do too, that’s why we have HIPPA. You think we should get rid of HIPPA?”
Do you have kids? Where do they go to school? What time are they off? When did you last go to the doctor? What medication do you use? Etc. Etc.
“Do you have a shredder? Do you keep your payment information in an exposed location. If you found out a company leaked your credit card data, your phone number, everything you’d ever said to your therapist, how would you feel?”
All the answers you got show why this conversation goes badly. No one can come up with an actual problem that data collection causes, it’s all silly comparisons to giving people your credit card number or shitting in front of them.
For me, having my data collected is like having CCTV cameras in stores. Yeah, technically someone is filming everything I do. Yeah it would be bad if a private individual was filming me for nefarious reasons. But no one actually uses that data for anything bad, and it doesn’t actually cause any problems.
All that happens is I get more relevant ads.
I would likely go with would you change clothes with the door open? Would you take a shit in the public? How would it feel if someone took a picture of you naked? This won’t likely work for those who have this kinks though lmao.
If you didnt hide your preferences, likes, dislikes, etc. from ad giants like facebook they show you ads and suck out your wealth, doing psychological experiments using you - might be a good argument but people may even ignore that
Ask them about their bank, all their passwords, the contact information of everyone they ever loved, ya know, in case you ever need to use that information against them or without their consent,
keep going till they are properly creeped out and as upset as they should be at anyone but them knowing that information.
Ask them the pin code or credit card number.
When they refuse to give it, reply “So you do have something to hide.”
It’s even people in tech. I work with someone who will gladly take tech claims at face value, and call me a conspiracy theorist on data collection. I said I didn’t want a smart thermostat because it increases our attack surface and he immediately snapped back with “oh China is gonna get us”. Like… No these things have had CVEs already and will again
It’s not only online privacy. Every fucking major intersection in the city has cameras. There are no public places where there isn’t a security camera watching. I can’t even go to Wendy’s without a camera watching me eat.
‘There’s no point fighting it’ or ‘Privacy is already dead’
The arguments that make my eye twitch, It’s such a defeatist outlook but seems like the most common nowadays.
Everyone says this kind of stuff about any and every social issue. It drives me insane, do people not realize that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy? If everyone I heard say “there’s no point fighting it” got together and fought it, they’d easily win.
I see this a lot in discussions about climate change lately: country X is polluting just as much or more than us so we shouldn’t do anything. This argument makes no sense.
I’m genuinely curious, who exactly do you think will do the fighting?
Cuz I can tell you who will be the first pushed forward, and that’s young men and women. I can’t speak for women so I won’t. However, not sure if you’ve noticed, but we’ve got several generations of young men that have been taught that they are literally everything that’s wrong with everything and are treated like it. What exactly would those young men be fighting for?
Of course they’re defeatist. They have been trained to be.
Stop licking Andrew Tates balls.
They give you bad breath and stupid ideas
I hate Andrew Tate, that changes nothing about what I’ve said.
Took me a long time to break out of the programming. I feel you.
It helps to understand that the phrase “you have value; you are worthy” is objectively true. It’s not a matter of opinion. It is a fact. You are a sentient person, therefore you matter. You are deserving of dignity, respect, and love. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. It’s like saying 2+2=5. They’re just not correct.
We need to address this on a societal level. And not via right wing douchebros.
Maybe you can help me out.
I see lots of folks here who are programmers or have a ton of knowledge on ways to get around the big 5 to maintain privacy, but as a layman with only so much time in the day, it’s hard to avoid taking the path of least resistance when using the Internet.
I am a musician with a public profile on Instagram, and many of my friends who are also artists use TikTok or YouTube to get their exposure. It’s kind of a necessity if you want to simply book a gig at a venue (they will ask for your social media handles to see how many followers you have to determine if it’s even worth having you on).
As artists we are also not flush with cash to pay for all the privacy software or VPNs. On top of that, so much of our information is already out there, I’m not sure how we’d even start reeling it back in.
you don’t have to go all in at once, mate. you can start by getting most important things in your control: your browser and search engine.
if you like the interface of Google chrome and can’t part away with it: use brave. else highly recommended to use Firefox.
if you just like Google search results, use startpage, else use duckduckgo or brave search.these two things alone would make a meaningful difference.
then for neutering most of third party tracking: use a private DNS(I’d suggest nextdns). it’s just a "add a URL and forget about it’. it’ll stop the tracking significantly.
then you can continue by replacing other inconsequential stuff like Google notes(use Joplin), Google assistant(don’t use any of this “smart” crap), Google fit(just exercise regularly. you don’t need to micromanage it).
then next step would be to start making some tough decisions: replace the keylogger that is Google keyboard with it’s open source equivalent heliboard.
then eventually you can go hardcore and use Facebook and other crap on browser only.
so, all in all, even if you do only the first two(or just first) step, you’re already 50% there.
let me know in case you got any questions. and happy journey.
Quick question why are you so sure that startpage, duckduckgo or brave are not tracking your data ? As far as I’m concerned they need to make money too there is no such thing as free shit. Also even if they are more private and don’t track your date if the search is not giving the results you want/need it’s not really a good search engine, I’m saying this as a few years back I tried duckduckgo and it was so bad at that point at giving results I wanted/needed that even bing was doing a better job.
because they don’t serve you targeted ads. duckduckgo’s(and startpage’s) business model is keyword-based ads, for which they are getting plenty of revenue.
brave has other paid offerings like search without ads(premium), brave VPN, their own shitcoin(BAT) and so on.as for the search results, I’m a software developer. most of the time I know what I am searching for, and I don’t want my search engine to go on overdrive and interpret it as something else. for me, duckduckgo is perfect. google, on the other hand, is worse for me for this and other reasons.
and there shouldn’t be much difference between duckduckgo and bing(sans account) since duckduckgo sources the results from bing.I don’t know when did you last try duckduckgo, but I’ve been using it since 2015 and I’ve rarely been disappointed. in case i am missing on something, it’s just a
!spaway(duckduckgo bangs).
You’re in a career that demands exposure, so you’re going to have to have two different personas - the public one and the private one.
I’m also a layman. Unfortunately, privacy is complicated nowadays so it does require a lot of research.
I would start here: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/
There is a 3rd argument which I think is a bit more valid in “I value the service I receive in exchange for my personal data”
Using the internet without an adblocker, noscript, and whatever else is really nasty. But even if you aren’t on these platforms, marketers are still building profiles on you. Honestly we need data privacy legislation and some real talk about marketing and the costs of using the internet as a society.
It’s funny, because people who defend DRM also use this argument. They are happy with the service, so they don’t mind losing freedom. They can’t understand that they could have both.
That argument pisses me off.
“I don’t mind so fuck you.”
If you want to use those services, that’s your business. But I don’t use those services; they still keep my data.
But I don’t use those services; they still keep my data.
Exactly why we need data privacy laws. Sadly there are “profiles” out there for all of us, whether you chose to be tracked or not. Personally I think that any kind of sharing of personal data with marketers should be illegal nor should it be legal for any entity to purchase personal data without a signed consent form from the person in question.
That’d probably end “free” services and our credit score system in the United States but honestly that kind of data collection is equivalent to stalking and unethical.
I would opt in to a credit score system, as long as I’m aware of exactly what they use to generate that score.
On the other hand, I would not opt in to having an advertising profile just to be allowed to access many websites. If that means I have to pay to use them, so be it.
There is a point in fighting it and privacy is not dead lol
The NSA knows absolutely anything about absolutely anyone it wants to know.
Do you use a cellphone? Use a smart TV? Roku? Android play? Apple anything?
I mean…the question now is what specifically do you want to protect and from whom?
I’m not judging the want, just pointing out the reality of the want.
Might be defeatist, but it’s still an up hill battle. It’s a lot of effort to stay off the grid while still having access to a lot of modern technology.
I’m not about to start using multiple phones, swapping them in and out of faraday cages, never connecting to the net through anything besides proxy chains, and keeping my pc on an external hard drive. The list goes on and on for what you’d have to do to really truly have privacy. It’s a lot of work.
I recently got a confused look when I said that I pay for my email provider (3€/mo, but 1€/mo would also work).
Many people don’t realize that operating an email server creates cost and they pay with letting Google/Yahoo/… read and analyze their communication.
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How do you get around websites that force you to use whitelisted domains? I had a self hosted email for a while and I was often considered spam.
I tell them to go fuck themselves. A more serious problem is that unless you sign up with a provider that has all of the encryption/verification stuff sorted out and a significant amount of outgoing mail, your messages will go straight to spam for everyone else.
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I want to do it and habe been offputting it because im worried that im gonna fuck something up and bc i dont really know how
I think the funniest part of this meme is every company bar Amazon, Discord (both not in market yet), and TikTok (Chinese) were confirmed to be a part of NSA’s PRISM
graphic design is the NSA’s passion
Do they have an opening? That looks about my skill level of web design.
Using the term “normies” paints you as having a superiority complex, which isn’t the best look.
Really? I just interpreted the use of normie here as “layperson” or “average user” and thought it was completely harmless.
Have someone refer to you as a normie and lmk if it feels neutral or derogatory.
I can’t imagine normies getting worked up over what some internet nerd calls them
Everyone is a normie for some things
I appreciate you calling out the use of the term “normie”. Communities that frequently use such terms always end up with an unhealthy “us vs them” mentality.
Like I’m not surprised people don’t react well to someone bringing up privacy issues if said person starts the conversation with the mentality of “how do I enlighten this normie?”
How do I reeeach theese Normies
Being a normie isn’t the best look either.
Misanthropy in current times is an indicator of a functioning brain.
Anyone that says it’s all great is delusional or trying to exploit a market inefficiency.
I’ve written software you use every day. Apache, NGinx, and a bunch of CNCF projects. I’m just as good as you at tech, likely better, and have a full understanding. I didn’t give a crap.
Opinions like yours are the essence of fedora anti culture that paints a picture of the asshole IT guy.
It implies them having that complex, thinking they know better than, as another comment pointed out, some nerds.
You know, that kind of people thinking their degree of social anthropology or whatever makes them smarter than you in every area. Because whatever they are doing is important and whatever you are doing is toys for nerds.
I can imagine a social butterfly looking down on nerds. Although I gotta level with you: that sounds like something that would primarily occur in high school to me. Maybe you’re grown and still dealing with that, but either way: using the term normies is not going to help at all, I assure you.
You getting downvoted sort of proves the point.
That people agree/disagree?
There’s a difference between disagreeing and being disrespectful.
downvoting is a form of expression, to label downvoting as disrespectful based on a narrow definition limits freedom of expression and overlooks the nuances. im a democratic socialist so voting is important to me.
Or you could take the time you explain your opinion.
I’m all for duologue, but there is a voting system, its very accessible more so than typing. Don’t you think this is a bit short sited and in reverse should people avoid voting in general good and bad?
You still haven’t explained why people shouldn’t take “normie” as a pejorative, or why using potential insults is a good thing.
Well to be fair even if you go full conspiracy theory or whatever an go insane to the point of blocking everything I doubt you are completely safe from anyone knowing who you are or what you do. In my country a few years back it was a big scandal because the internet ISPs were decrypting trafic and we’re knowing everything anyone did on the internet as well as selling that date to ad companies. So I don’t really care about this shit anymore cause I already know someone somewhere is already selling my data, I use an ad block just to not be bothered by stupid pop-up ads and that’s about it.
Agree. Full-doomer isn’t for everyone. We can reduce our attack surface, but there’s no silver bullets. Just using a good adblocker increases privacy quite a bit, and quite frankly makes browsing the web bearable.
internet ISPs were decrypting traffic
I always thought it was a little sus that the NSA designed a lot of of the ciphers we use today.
Severely lacking in car company logos.
Oh, those aren’t gaping Patrick’s mouth…
Stupid question: What exactly are the dangers being implied here? I have accounts with all of these services although I don’t use all of them. I know that they are using and selling my personal information, is there more? I have ways of doing things in private when I need and I’m aware that using these services has no expectations of absolute privacy.
Privacy = freedom. If you don’t have privacy, or to the extent you don’t have privacy, you are in proportion not free.
It seems to me this is the trade off we are all figuring out how to make. For example, I’ve considered not having a cell phone at all, but then I find it almost impossible to get a job, or operate in the economy. So I use a custom privacy ROM. I have no illusions that this is perfect, but at least a step in the right direction.
I think the most practical answer is to gain knowledge of the situation, and limit our attack surface. I don’t think there’s any silver bullets, unless you want to live like the Amish (which, doesn’t sound like a bad idea, either. If that’s what you want and you can do it, go for it.)
what do you mean by free? if total privacy means i can’t have a phone or talk to most people then does that really make me more free?
i agree that privacy is important, but i think this is fundamentally a legislative problem. there’s only so much that can be done at the individual level without making massive sacrifices and dedicating a serious amount of time to it. i have a vpn, i use content blockers, etc. but i think its too simplistic to say more privacy = more free.
one of the other commenters mentioned the thing about having someone looking in while you’re watching tv. but if the only solution is to go live in the woods, is it really worth it?
if total privacy means i can’t have a phone or talk to most people then does that really make me more free?
Yes, and it’s totally based if you do this. Our gadgets don’t really makes us more free. At least not with how they’re currently used. Everyone is disconnected from nature, sunsets, each other, and more. When’s the last time you saw a concert? Everyone is staring at their phones and not even enjoying the moment they’re in. Many are depressed and drowning in meaninglessness. When we look at old pictures of beaches from the 90s (not even that old) everyone appears physically fit, bright, and happy. Did our gadgets really make us any more free, or happy?
but if the only solution is to go live in the woods, is it really worth it?
Yes.
it seems like you’re blaming all of societies problems on technology. surely there must be more to it than that, right? the lack of fitness for example may be due to increasing grocery costs, the rise of fast food, the cost of living crises, and/or many other economical/sociological factors.
i just really don’t understand your argument here. you’re conflating the concept of “privacy” (the original topic of the conversation) with “all of our gadgets” and the effects of those gadgets. i don’t see anything in your comment that’s related to privacy.
and do you honestly think you’ll find more meaning by living in the woods? if so, why haven’t you done it?
it seems like you’re blaming all of societies problems on technology.
We are talking about technology, and privacy. And I’m answering your questions. I’m no one special, and I don’t have all the answers. Just because you and I are talking about this specific topic doesn’t mean that’s all I care about. Respectfully, what a silly thing to say.
and do you honestly think you’ll find more meaning by living in the woods? if so, why haven’t you done it?
Again, I’m no one special. But I that’s exactly what I’m doing. Because I wouldn’t offer any advice that I myself wouldn’t be willing to follow. We sold our property in the city and purchased acreage on the countryside, are raising animals, and planting a garden this year. It’s great. Humanity needs more experiences like this that are in harmony with nature and natural living, and less in the dull, gray brutalist, dehumanizing cityscapes we’ve created.
you’re conflating the concept of “privacy” (the original topic of the conversation) with “all of our gadgets” and the effects of those gadgets.
Right. Because there’s nothing inherently wrong with gadgets. But our modern gadgets are purpose-built to be addictive, monopolize our attention and time, and invade our privacy. I believe these are all interrelated.
I’m only on two of those hooks.
But I’ve been using adblocking DNS and system-wide adblocking for a few years now so significantly fewer of that bullshit has been connecting to my devices since then.
adblocking DNS
Totally based. Is it a PiHole? We set one up a few years ago. One of the best things we’ve ever done. Totally worth it when even the inline ads and tracking are blocked on phone apps.
What’s the one between TikTok and Alexa and the one below iCloud?
I’m on between 2 and 4 of those hooks (though one is in pretty deep) depending on what those other 2 are. Though I suspect that if I was using them on a regular basis I’d recognize their logos.
Meta (Facebook)
And Siri I think
A lot of Siri requests are processed locally, to be fair. And iCloud has encryption now.
both backdoored
e2ee is almost meaningless on a closed source app or system… whats stopping them from sending a copy of your files unencrypted?
Well, it would most likely show up in the network traffic if they were doing that for starters. And no one doing security analysis on iOS has ever mentioned that AFAIK. And since Apple bases about 90% of their marketing on protecting your privacy, that would be very bad for them as a company.
I mean, what’s stopping someone poisoning a library on open source? That’s actually provably happened.
Which is not to ding open source, which I quite like too. Just saying you are running certain risks no matter what you choose and in a phone OS, if you just want it to work and not think about it, I personally feel like Apple is a decent risk still.
Apple bases about 90% of their marketing on protecting your privacy,
LOL “We have access to all your data and use it to target ads and any goddamn thing else we want to do, but we don’t sell it to third parties, we just take the third party’s wishes and shove them down customer throats ourselves! It’s not much better, but it is better.”
🤷♂️ I value the service over some theoretical harm. Tiktok has never hurt me.
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I know, anything sometime can be abused it should be eradicated. Let’s just take down the Internet.
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siri? alexa? whatsapp? what?
Pretty much agreed, except iCloud allows full E2E encryption if you enable Advanced Data Protection…
Siri is maybe a different story, alas. But at least you can disable the always listening feature if you want.
Much of the obsession internet people have over ““privacy”” is just a feel-good-about-themselves thing, rather than actually protecting themselves from their data being collected and used. If you’re posting on the internet, yes that includes Lemmy, there’s almost no doubt that any government and world-destroying corporation would have easy access to everything about you in an instant, even if you go out of your way to try to use services “focused on privacy”. You aren’t protecting yourself from anything by not using Google/Microsoft/etc. products.
There is no “chipping away bit-by-bit” when it comes to this, it’s pretty much meaningless unless you’re nearly completely off the grid, to the point where you don’t even use modern technology. The worst you’re gonna do otherwise is fuck up targetted ads, but that’s not very hard to do considering Google apparently thought I was a pregnant woman looking for leather boots and beauty products when I still had ads on YouTube.
I wish people would admit it’s really not about their privacy. Say it’s because FOSS services are better (because they are), say it’s so you don’t get spam from shitty sites you gave your email to, say it’s so you can fit in in your niche online communities, whatever. But 99.99% of people in “privacy” communities haven’t even put a dent in the data being collected from them by large entities, hell most people in these communities think VPNs will protect them from anything at all other than their parents or boss not noticing them being on porn sites (VPNs can help with privacy, but only under specific conditions that most people aren’t meeting)…
That’s just demonstrably false
