• 🍉 Albert 🍉@lemmy.world
      6·
      4 days ago

      never, have I ever heard anything bad about Diogenes, and the more I learn about Socrates and Plato, the less I like them.

      Fuck Plato and Socrates and everything they stood for.

      Too sober to elaborate if asked. just look at why exactly was Socrates on trial. not the reason Plato says, but the actual reason.

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
        8·
        4 days ago

        You’ve never heard that Diogenes was a nudist and known for wanking in public? Or possibly even bestiality?

        Also, I wonder what you think Socrates was on trial for. He called a lot of standard assumptions into question, and was called impious by the political/religious elite. They didn’t like how he was educating people to think rationally instead of believing whatever they’re told to believe, so they charged him with “corrupting the youth.”

        It’s comparable to magas today going after public school teachers or college professors, because they teach “science” and other works of the devil.

        A lot of people criticize Plato without really understanding him. They think he wanted a rationalist theocracy but that’s missing the point entirely. He was against anti-intellectualism in a society that worshipped incestuous gods.

        Also, Plato and Socrates made extensive use of elenchus and aporia, deliberately emphasizing the limitations of human knowledge. Instead of asserting what they believed to be true, they would use a series of questions to get their counterparts to examine their own beliefs, while identifying inconsistencies and irrational conclusions.

        Their main thing was to point out how much of what people believe they “know,” are actually assumptions based on societal conditioning.

        • 🍉 Albert 🍉@lemmy.world
          4·
          4 days ago

          He was on trial because his disciples committed a coup which lead to the death of about 10% of Athens in 8 months, which then ran away and the closest thing to anyone being on trial was their teacher, who campaigned against democracy, and not once in the trial disvowed his students or even acknowledged the slaughter.

          that’s why we think he was on trial for bs “corruption the youth” because that’s the bs he talked about in his trial (written by Plato after the fact).

          he was more like a conservative grifter, Jordan Peterson, or a Nazi propagandists who got sentenced to death for nazi crimes.

          look into the 30 tyrants.

          also non Platonic contemporary accounts portray Socrates as a grifter, teaching BS for cash while complaining of sophists doing the same (the clouds of Erastophanes).

          don’t think Socrates was a old kind wise man.

          • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
            2·
            4 days ago

            I’ve never heard that before. Do you have a source for that information?

            Athenian democracy was more like “democracy for wealthy athenian landowners.” It’s not much like modern democracy, so there was a lot to criticize about it. Even modern democracy can be described as “rule of the ignorant” in some places, so it’s not like it’s impossible to validly criticize.

            I don’t know what kinds of arguments Jordan Peterson makes because I’ve never listened to him, but from what I’ve heard it sounds like he merely tries to rationalize male stereotypes by giving them an appearance of validity. That’s definitely not what Socrates was doing; in fact the Athenian elites he criticized were closer to the Jordan Peterson type.

            And nothing Socrates or Plato said remotely resembled Nazi propaganda, so unless you cite some textual examples I’m not going to take that seriously.

            Also, Plato criticized the 30 tyrants. So I don’t see what connection you’re trying to draw there.

            As far as “non-Platonic contemporary accounts” go, what primary sources are they citing? Or is it just pure navel-gazing? Criticizing old white dudes is the easiest way to get ahead in modern academia, it’s the only way to slide through the peer-review process without a defensible critique. Valid criticisms can be made, but they require textual evidence (unless they’re criticizing a white dude; then anything goes, apparently).

            Sophists made use of wordplay and tautology to seem wise, while mostly reaffirming common assumptions that people already held. Plato and Socrates were rationalists, which is completely different. They used discursive reasoning rather than mere semantics. And if someone doesn’t understand the difference, then it’s not worth my time to try to explain. Too many people reject rationalism while falling for semantics; how does one reason with someone who’s irrational?

            • 🍉 Albert 🍉@lemmy.world
              2·
              4 days ago

              Keep in mind we don’t have anything about what he said. at least not directly. all we have is Plato writing him as a character. Even his “apology” was written by Plato after the trial. It being more a propaganda speech by Plato than an actual trial recording.

              look at any sources regarding " 30 tyrants " wiki is a good start (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants). also, non Platonic accounts like Erastophanes portray him as a grifter (https://youtu.be/76lkcYbjdFk).

              And after all, he was found guilty for that Athenian genocide (even though Plato denied it) by his own people. so there’s that.

              Plato got spared, he was invited to participate in the 30 tyrants government (which included his cousin and uncle), but decided not to once the genocide started. https://medium.com/the-first-philosophers/plato-4-5-the-thirty-tyrants-2447c90f3af1

              for something so well documented, It is insane that no one knows about it

              • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
                1·
                4 days ago

                There are also accounts by Xenophon. And I’m aware of the limitations of citing Plato’s accounts, but that doesn’t justify leveling any accusation one can come up with. Also, the satires of Aristophanes hardly count as historical evidence.

                Neither of the other two sources you provided say anything about Plato or Socrates being complicit with the regime or guilty of genocide. In fact, it seems like they had some animosities towards the thirty tyrants.

                Where are you getting this claim that Socrates was found guilty for the Athenian genocide? It says right here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates) that the charges were impiety and corrupting the youth (by encouraging them to question their elders).

                The impious acts cited were “failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges” and “introducing new deities” (apparently Reason (διάνοια) was a deity in their view…)

                • 🍉 Albert 🍉@lemmy.world
                  1·
                  3 days ago

                  the trial was due questioning democracy and leading to an extremely violent coup.

                  that’s like saying the civil war was because state rights.

                  keep in mind that Aristotle and Plato were extremely influential and enmeshed in the political elite (Alexander the Great). their views and erasure of that genocide was intentional.

                  That trial was for the Athenian genocide, and he was found guilty of corrupting the youth, that what it meant.

                  i get that a comedy play calling Socrates a grifter isn’t proof, but just part of the evidence that contemporaries thought he was one.

  • Restaldt@lemmy.world
    14·
    5 days ago

    “Were I not Alexander the great I would wish to be you Diogenes”

    “I would wish to be me too”

  • mycodesucks@lemmy.world
    11·
    5 days ago

    The more I learn about this guy, the more I think we should be teaching him as one of the great philosophers.

    • Naz@sh.itjust.works
      5·
      5 days ago

      I mean, yes and no: he was a cynic, but he also did things like masturbate in public during Aristotle’s lectures.

      There’s a fine line between living your principles and trolling for the sake of it (Diogenes, not you)

          • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
            1·
            4 days ago

            It doesn’t mean their good ideas should be totally discarded simply because other things they say and did are bad. As Bruce Lee said: take the good but discard the bad.

              • I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world
                3·
                4 days ago

                I mean, I’ve asked directly twice now and you’ve had the entire thread to mention a single one that you respect and have failed to do so. So Im starting to lean toward the assumption that you aren’t familiar with the work of even a single philosopher, yet are smugly using an electrical device with components made by slaves and judging ancient philosophers as morally corrupt based on nothing but the times they were living in.

                • cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  1·
                  4 days ago

                  Well, like, what counts as philosophy to you? There are different fields and some people don’t count some of them as philosophy.

                  Some people would include hawking include every theologian, or exclude Marx or discard the entire field of philosophy of mind.

                  But no, I’m not familiar with any. Books are nerd shit and reading them is literally impossible.

  • Agent641@lemmy.world
    1·
    3 days ago

    I quite like lentils. They store really well, you can use them in myriad ways, and in a pinch you can use them as an environmentally friendly shrapnel filler in a homemade grenade.