We, the admin team, decry all forms of settler-colonialism, and we recognize that Zionism is a pro-settler-colonialist position.
Therefore we propose that should no longer be accepting of any Zionist accounts on our instances.
Please upvote for agree, downvote for disagree.
Note: we only count votes by instance members of dbzer0 and anarchist.nexus, plus a few vouched-for external users.
Hi mateys, I’ve kept things simple in the above text, for brevity, but in fact it took the admin team quite a while to get to this stage. We have discussed the policy change extensively, and a variety of different perspectives emerged. I will attempt to sum them up below as best I can:
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The “this isn’t that complicated” school of thought goes something like this: If someone is consistently posting comments that mirror Hasbara talking points (e.g. justifying the genocide in Gaza, consistently painting Palestinians as terrorists and Israel as the victim), then they should be instance banned. It’s just not acceptable for Zionists to be allowed on our instances.
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The “slippery slope” / “purity test” school of thought is that banning people for having an “unpopular” political opinion would potentially mean banning half the fediverse, if more and more of these policies were enacted over time. To attempt to mitigate this we are keeping the scope of this rule as narrow as possible, and I also don’t think many of our users will be affected. Also, we typically don’t have frequent policy changes, and I have no reason to expect that to change moving forward.
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Another important discussion point was “how do we decide whether someone is pro-Zionist or not?” We can’t always be 100% sure of someone’s true intentions, we can only go on what they have posted and that is subject to interpretation. I don’t feel there is an easy answer to this one, except to say that we would have to be pretty certain before issuing a perma-ban.
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The “geopolitics don’t matter” school of thought is that trying to be on the “correct” side of every issue is kind of pointless because nothing that happens in lemmy chat forums will ever make an ounce of difference in the real world. Don’t bother moderating users over political/ideological differences, just let people argue if they want. While I can totally empathize with this sentiment, I can also see the case for taking a clear stance on this topic in accordance with our values and the overwhelming support for the Palestinian cause among our users. Personally, I am advocating in favor of the resolution.
Please add your comments below if you want to provide your own thoughts on the topic, or have any questions.
expiry: 7
How are you defining Zionism?
I am a Zionist based on a literal definition. In a better society, people could go anywhere they wanted, use electronic currency and have UBI, and do what they want.
So I’m a gay person. If there were no borders, I would be concerned that religious conservatives (of any faith) would move to my area and have tons of conservative kids, and then it would be harder for me to be gay without being killed and to marry. 100 years from now, I would hope that religions are less hostile to people who are different.
I also think if there were no Israel, Jewish people would be more likely to be killed. Elon Musk recently did a Nazi salute in America, many conservatives are openly embracing racists like Nick Fuentes, and it’s very hard to predict if these are random flukes or if it’s a harbinger of neo-Nazism growing in America. And although Europe has become more tolerant of Jewish people since WWII, I can understand some Jewish people wanting to not live there post-Holocaust.
I’m also not okay with war crimes. Many war crimes have impacted Palestinians: starvation of civilian Palestinians as a method of war negotiation, having dogs fuck Palestinians in prison to degrade and humiliate them (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8dy8r7lq0go), etc. International organizations have correctly labeled what has occurred a genocide and these organizations are not biased and are telling the truth. I would like Israel to exist and Palestinians to be treated well and have a place to live (that isn’t subject to bizarre blockades or harsh unfair rules).
However, based on the technical meaning of Zionist, since I support Israel existing, that makes me a Zionist. I’m willing to leave voluntarily (or you can just ban me).
I think when people who struggle with depression and other mental health issues get into arguments online, it can feel like everyone hates us or are specifically being mean for no reason. But when you step back, you realize you talked to maybe 4 people. And that this thread and argument didn’t have anything to do with why you were so upset and getting emotional, you were just stressed about something else. And not in the best head space to be talking about these type of discussions. I can only guess that you have been struggling. That sucks. This thread is probably not the best place for you right now and that is ok.
My two cents about this conflict:
Israel was created by stealing land and forcibly removing people who were already living there. Israel should not have been created that way. If some european countries felt bad after WW2, they should have donated some of their own land so Jewish people could create some communities there while still mingling with everyone else in a peaceful manner like a melting pot. The hurt begins there and gets worse since Israel insisted on expanding by doing more violence. The founders and leaders over the years were ok with using violence this way.
You wanting a safe place for Jewish people to exist is ok, but conflating that with needing Israel to exist is the problem you seem to be facing. You can say genocide is bad and people need to be prosecuted, but even if Israel stopped, it would need to return the occupied and stolen land. Israel does not represent all Jewish people. Israel is not the answer, it cannot even sustain itself. Israel doesn’t even think your views are ok, it would label you an antisemite because it does not think it has done anything wrong and is just “defending” itself.
I know you mentioned you consider yourself liberal, we view things from a more leftist perspective. It’s ok to ask questions and learn and reflect on ourselves. And also ok to take a break, a breather, and do some self-care.
No this thread actually was what bothered me.
I have been very against the war crimes that have been committed, very in favor of ICC actions, and have donated money to Palestinian causes and learned somewhat about the situation, but don’t consider myself an expert on this. To be called “shit” and “horrible” and a supporter of “actual real mass murder” hurts when I have been so against the war crimes that have occurred and the general mistreatment of Palestinians. Apparently, I am the enemy, however. So… yeah, peace out… I’m not left enough to contribute or have an opinion on this instance.
I don’t really believe in self-care or taking a breather or mental health platitudes. I think most mental health care is just trying to get people to accept a really horrible and cruel society instead of rightfully being upset and depressed and rejecting how awful society is. I am okay with being sad and miserable. This is a sad and miserable world. Why pretend otherwise?
Thanks for this great reply!
The self-conjured fear of your own murder made you support actual real mass murder eh. Thats not a reasonable defense of real life murder. Zionists are not acting out of imminent threat, and neither are you. You are just trying to manipulate.
Please ban so they cant return. Trusting Voluntarily leaving wont keep them out. Take whatever ban records we can, fingerprint the browser, capture the data so when they try to return they cant.
I was someone who previously donated to Palestinian causes. And apparently, that means I support mass murder.
I get it, I’m not wanted here or in the movement in any capacity unless I am advocating for the explicit destruction of Israel. So I will use my limited time and money elsewhere, there are other conflicts I can donate to.
I use Tor Browser. Please… fingerprint me! Or block Tor Browser!
“Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in late 19th-century Europe; it primarily seeks to establish and support a Jewish homeland through the colonization of Palestine”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
That’s you? And you’re proudly and publicly admitting that?
I support Israel’s right to exist. I also support the ICC, I support Palestinians having a homeland, a state, and support the international community’s characterizations of various acts as war crimes.
Apparently, this makes me a “horrible” person and “proud.”
You know, I deal with enough depression as it is, enough people have been mean to me during my lifetime for being gay, if supporting Palestinian people in any way (ie, being on the side of ICC prosecutions, among other things, which, in my area is a somewhat controversial position) requires some staunch anti-Israel-existence position, that it should not even exist as a state, then count me out. I think I’m probably going to delete my account. I have enough misery in my life and I’d rather be apolitical, despite the genocide really bothering me, if having multifaceted views is going to have people insulting me like this.
I really question whether alienating moderate liberals will help you get what you want. I am much more likely to be more apoltiical regarding liberal issues after being treated this way for not being liberal enough.
evergreen mlk quote
I don’t think the position “We need to greatly increase ICC funding and take their members off international blacklists” is actually a moderate position, sadly and shockingly, at least not in the country where I am.
Yes, yes it does. You are the same as a fucking Nazi arguing for the German homeland.
You support a literal ethnostate. Don’t play the gay card with me, I go through the same discrimination and I’m not a piece of shit who supports hateful movements like Zionism.
Waahhh wahhh people were mean so I’m going to stop caring about literal genocide. Typical centrist shit.
Please do delete your account, I would love to bully a racist Zionist off of the Internet.
Death to Israel.
You think you’re helping Palestinians? I previously donated to Palestinian causes. But why?
You know what? Forget it. You’re right, I’m a racist bully. You can fight this shit on your own. No more donating anything, no more advocating for ICC prosecutions. You have convinced me not to be a part of any advocacy.
You win.
Seriously, if this is the ethos of the movement, I want no part of it, no donating anything to help Palestinians, no supporting ICC prosecutions and a Palestinian state. If this is the hate that this position gets me, if you people all hate me so much, I’m going back to indifference… and my views were far more liberal on this topic than those of the average person. But you’ve convinced me, I should not support Palestinians in any way, I am bad and evil and not wanted.
Peace the fuck out asshole.
If all it took was a mean comment on the Internet for you to throw your mask off, it was never a real value of yours.
It’s not one mean comment. I’ve had a hard life, I’ve had about 4 people say mean shit on here today to me, including one person calling me a horrible person. I am depressed enough, I am suicidal enough, yes I haven’t lost my whole family in a genocide, but my life is awful enough. If this is the movement and my views exclude me and make me “horrible” then fuck all of you. I am also poor, I am housing insecure… I don’t need this. Really, fuck all of you. I mean it.
Okay Zionist.
Never again will I donate to Palestinian causes, post any articles supporting the movement, support a 2 state solution.
You’re right. I’ll be a horrible Zionist who simply doesn’t give a fuck. Keeping kicking all the impure people out of your movement who don’t pass your tests. I’m sure it will help.
I fixed it for you so it more closely aligns with your ideology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Thanks! I thought I was more afraid of trans kids committing suicide… but you’re right… I actually did mean that “subhuman” language! Who cares about trans kids dying as the population becomes more conservative? Thanks for correcting me!
Can’t (also won’t) argue with this logic.
did you really just use the “think of the children!” argument to justify bombing innocent kids?
you can’t make this shit up.
Yes, that was literally what I said. I literally typed “Oh, won’t someone please think of the children… so we can bomb innocent children.” It’s what I wrote… LITERALLY. Good job, reading comprehension A+
yes, that is what you said. don’t get sarcastic about it after the fact. your justification for supporting a genocide is hand wringing about what might happen to trans kids if you don’t. you pulled a “think of the children” to justify murdering children.
you are absolutely a horrible person and should be ashamed to have said something so incredibly vile and hateful.
Literal things I have typed prior your response above:
“International organizations have correctly labeled what has occurred a genocide and these organizations are not biased and are telling the truth.”
“My belief that Israel protects Jewish people does not mean that I support conservative Jewish people in Israel committing war crimes. I support the ICC and I support Israel existing and I support Palestinians having a safe and nice place to live without being treated horribly.”
“There are also Palestinian people who died as heroes documenting the genocide.”
Thanks for labeling me as a horrible person! As an LGBT+ person who has received a lot of hate in my lifetime, it’s always nice to get more. If you read through my post history, you would know I’ve dealt with a lot of depression, so just thanks for adding onto things!
Also, you may want to ask yourself if alienating someone slightly moderate (someone in favor of the ICC, in favor of a Palestinian safe and nice homeland, and in favor of international characterizations that certain acts constitute war crimes) is good for your movement… or if you are making your tent and your movement smaller and weaker? I don’t actually like being called a horrible person and am probably less likely to advocate for Palestinian restitution and rights and ICC prosecutions after this, not because I don’t support it, but because I’ve experienced enough hate in my life, and don’t like being called a horrible person. If the movement to support Palestinians has no place for me because I think Israel should exist, or if the movement has a place for me but I’m going to be called horrible, I am unfortunately already depressed and miserable enough and will engage less… and will be alienated. Do you realize you’re having that effect? Do you care?
Honestly, fuck you you illiterate moron. If I’m a horrible person, you’re a damn idiot who can’t read. I am someone who actively wanted ICC prosecutions, who considered doing activism work supporting the ICC regarding this, but you know what? Fuck you, fuck this movement, fuck this instance, I don’t want to be treated this way, ban me, kick me out of the movement, keep your political movement nice and exclusive. I am way less likely to do anything regarding this movement at all, including supporting the ICC in any way. If I’m so horrible, then fuck you, I won’t advocate for ICC prosecutions or support this cause at all, apparently I’m not welcome and want genocide… that’s literally what I am saying, right?
This might be uncomfortable for you to hear, but the substance of this sentence is a xenophobic. You being concerned as a minority that some other group might move next door and have children is exactly the type of justification used for the state of Israel and their genocide and apartheid, and the reason why Zionism ought be bannable on this instance.
I disagree. There is a difference between general xenophobia and being (quite justifiably) wary of cultures that are a threat to you or others due to identity. The fact is that cultures exist which are highly misogynistic, oppressive towards minorities, supremacist or even racist - and yes, religion is intertwined in culture.
Frankly, it is far too often that behaviours & opinions which would otherwise be considered extreme, unacceptable or threatening are excused as being part of someones’ culture.
We must hold everyone to the same standards in these regards. It is important to realize that many core morals which we value (ex. gender equality, freedom of expression, bodily autonomy etc.) are an aspect of culture and not a shared human belief. They must be championed and defended, both nationally and internationally.
People can learn and change, regardless of their origin, and cultures can develop over time. Better make sure it’s in the direction of humanism, tolerance and benevolence rather than regression into medieval dogma. (Yes, that includes US style christian resurgence, Islamic religious doctrine and British hooligan culture).
Not really, no. It doesn’t matter if you think your fear of another group or culture is justified, it’s still a fear and suspicion of an outside group on the basis of identity. Using that fear as a justification to exclude that group from the right of free movement and association is what makes it the basis of genocidal rhetoric.
To use a clear example: early American settlers feared the Natives had a fundamentally incompatible culture to their European one, and accused them of being barbaric. They used that fear as a justification to evict them from their homes, refuse their freedom of movement and inclusion, and to erase their culture and lineage from the continent. They would have come bearing receipts of instances of native americans scalping their relatives or stealing their property - but that wouldn’t make that fear a legitimate justification for any of their genocidal actions that followed.
When you live in the core of empire, of course you are going to be afraid of outside groups, because empire has given those groups nothing but reasons to hate it. That doesn’t justify apartheid or oppressive governance, and it sure as fuck doesn’t justify genocide
After many Muslims were let into Canada, they protested against trans people, calling it gender ideology. (https://www.trtworld.com/article/13562350). Huge numbers of trans people successfully complete suicide because of bullying, trans people who can’t get hormone treatments when they are young have less successful transitions and are more likely to commit suicide, and religious protesting against gender ideology in Canada literally is more straw on the backs of transgender youths and likely was the tipping point that did in fact lead to some young trans people to kill themselves. You can call it xenophobia or whatever, but it’s reality, and trans suicides are not just theoretical.
It is also not as though most Muslims throughout the world protested against these Canadians, saying they had gone too far. Yes, there are trans Muslims and liberal Muslims, but were trans kids in Canada more likely to commit suicide because of these protests? Yes.
I can simultaneously want Palestinian people to not be genocided and subject to war crimes and want to protect trans people. If we are truly anti-colonialism, it would also be requesting abolishment of the USA and abolishment of even some South American countries and I do not genuinely believe that if the states that exist were to somehow go away and borders were to go away, that the result would be more liberalism. I don’t even see how the idea of any borders is somehow fair; why should some people be allowed to roam earth freely in some areas and other people not? But it’s not logistically clear how it would work right now if all borders were abolished, if people just did whatever they want. It is also not logistically clear how Jewish people would be protected when you have rising far right European parties and rising US neo-Nazism. My belief that Israel protects Jewish people does not mean that I support conservative Jewish people in Israel committing war crimes. I support the ICC and I support Israel existing and I support Palestinians having a safe and nice place to live without being treated horribly. But on a technical level, anyone who supports Israel even existing is a Zionist. So, that’s what I am then. Even if colloquially Zionism has come to represent apologists for a war crime regime in Israel, Zionism technically means someone who wants Israel to exist, so… then I am a Zionist.
When Biden left Iraq, ISIS filled the vaccum and now women are not allowed to read. And yes, the US should have never gone into Iraq, but my point is that in a vaccum or void left from the absence of a state, it’s not as though educated and enlightened liberalism is the first thing to swoop in and expand and fill that void, instead it was ISIS. I am xenophobic toward transphobic people and misogynistic people and if that makes me inherently xenophobic, so be it. If there were a way to allow for immigration as long as people weren’t transphobic, then great, but it doesn’t seem like there are “liberalism values” tests given to people who immigrate. There are Middle Eastern women out there, heroes, who are protesting against cruel treatment, women like Mahsa Amini and Hadis Najafi. I am not scared of heroes like this. I wish I had all the integrity and bravery of Hadis who died a hero to all people. I wish I could have met her and talked to her. I look at her, and AOC, and Geta Thunberg as so pure and ethical… but Hadis, she was something else, a different kind of Warrior. There are also Palestinian people who died as heroes documenting the genocide. I also do not claim to be a good person who has stood up to injustice and cruelty the way others have.
It seems like I am the sort of person you all want to ban, so I should just go. It’s just an instance and I don’t want to be where I am not wanted. It’s clearly the best instance for various reasons, but I’ll be okay. That’s what’s great about the fediverse!
I’m glad you support Palestinian liberation and oppose their genocide.
There’s still the underling belief that an ethno-religious colonial state can address your fears of persecution of anyone outside of your identity group, and that’s what people are pointing to as incompatible with anarchism. It doesn’t make you a ‘bad person’ to hold that position, but it is a morally abhorrent belief on its own.
I’m sorry you got piled on, and I hope it didn’t cause you too much distress. If i’m being frank - an anarchist instance probably isn’t a good fit for you.
I am in favor of a much more liberal Israel existing that doesn’t violate international law. I don’t think my belief is that an ethno-religious colonial state is the only way to address fears of persecution. As I said, in an ideal situation, in the future, things would be very different.
I really like this instance in part because it doesn’t reject the Tor browser, which I support because it helps with free speech.
I feel like some of my values fit this instance, but perhaps it doesn’t align perfectly. As I said, I’m planning on deleting my account and going somewhere else. I also don’t consider myself an expert on this topic, at all, but since I am apparently horrible and shit, I think I need to learn about other topics, not this, there are other conflicts and problems in the world, there are other instances. The response to my posts is overwhelmingly negative, I just can do something else with my time than be here. I’ll benefit and so will everyone else, apparently.
You are making a lot of arguments in this comment. Here’s the one I’ll focus on:
(emphasis mine)
How can hypothetical damage, of that only even arguably mitigated by this supposed protection (in my view exacerbated), possibly be held up for comparison against ongoing, unapologetic, exquisitely coordinated genocide of right-now-living civilian people?
Human beings, kin to all of us by some degree, are being massacred, now. You are talking about what could happen, and necessarily involving an extreme amount of hypotheticals and uncertainty. These two do not compare. Full stop.
This governance question is about what to do about actual real propaganda that facilitates actual real genocide. If you’re arguing for prioritizing hypothetical harm in the face of that, yeah - this doesn’t sound like the place for you.
Where the fuck did you get that from what I said?
I do not support genocide, I want there to be ICC prosecutions and am against war crimes.
Just because Israel exists does not mean war crimes must occur. This is a specific choice by a specific conservative leadership of Israel. Where are you getting that I am in favor of war crimes from what I said?
Honestly, fuck all of you. I say specifically, multiple times, that I support the ICC, that war crimes have occurred, even listing some of them, and that I support the Palestinians having a place to live that is safe and free of bizarre regulations and cruelty.
But apparently, my comment about protecting Jewish people’s safety means that I must support war crimes? What the fuck?
Full stop, go back to Grok or wherever you learned that shit diction. I am someone who was in favor of ICC prosecutions, in favor of a two state solution, agreed with the International community, and you’re all coming down on me like a bunch of hornets. So you know what? Kick me out, ban me, fuck you, and I won’t express being in support of ICC prosecutions, I won’t do any support of Palestinians… I am a “proud” and “horrible” person and this isn’t “the place for me.” So, go ahead, have your small tent party. I won’t be doing any activism on this at all, apparently I’m not liberal enough and I’m tired of being insulted.
That’s a super emotional response compared to what I said. A lot of it weirdly directed at not me, while said to me, but okay. Add in random accusations about me using a (I think famously shitty, right? And racist, imperialist, etc.) LLM to express my POV, neat, you are not doing yourself any favors.
My comment is that it’s completely inappropriate to insist on the freedom to worry about potential harm to Jews en masse as some nebulous outcome in the face of ongoing, documented, historic, extreme brutality and evil - the genocide of Palestine.
Who says I want favors? Full stop, fuck you.
It is an emotional response because I’ve also been called a horrible person, and proud, and all this other really insulting stuff.
If I say it’s a genocide and I’m in favor of ICC prosecutions, I don’t know how that isn’t enough. Am I not allowed to care about Jewish safety or trans suicides unless my language is more staunchly condemnatory? I linked to a bbc article about Israeli guards fucking prisoners of war with dogs. Multiple people are insulting me, while I’m pretty clearly condemning war crimes, and I’m not allowed to have opinions about other things, apparently, because my condemnation isn’t strong enough.
I really don’t care, fuck all of you, I’m out. My new thing is to not comment on this situation at all, not donate anything, not advocate for anything. I can’t have a position that involves Israel existing without being attacked. I’ll find a new instance and avoid this topic. I expect to be banned at the rate of my replies, but I don’t care, I don’t want to be a part of this. The fediverse is great. I’ll find somewhere else to be that doesn’t want to be mean to me.
I haven’t yet looked at your other comments and responses in the thread, but I can assure you I was making a pretty focused complaint about a specific thing you said because that line of thought is central to the problem being addressed by the governance question.
I’m not here to pile on or dunk in a general sense, that’s not an experience I want to cause well-intentioned others to feel. Again, haven’t looked at your experience elsewhere in the thread and am going to bed.
Stick around if your beliefs seem compatible, your overall description here doesn’t sound off putting. This has always been an easy place to find common ground for me, but most people I meet more generally align much less well.
It’s not mutually exclusive to want Palestinian rights and safety and a Palestinian place to exist (that isn’t subject to unreasonable restrictions) and to also want Israel to not be destroyed and to worry about the safety of Jewish people and to worry about the safety of LGBT people and to also want Israel to be run by much more liberal people and to also want Israel to adhere to international law and to also want ICC prosecutions and more Western countries to support the ICC and to also want ICC members and their families to be taken off blacklists.