I read the entire thread several times and all I can say is that I understand Haui’s desperation to organize to the point of concessions. However, there is no need for concessions in that case(the french case or the german either) because there is popular support for anti war sentiment(the students rally in Germany is one example of that).

If we go back to the post and translate the protest signs that the people were showing, we can find the following. Taking into account your comments Penguin on the organizers, this will allow us to determine if the protest is completely reactionary or genuinely progressive with opportunist rightoids leading it(if you want example of opportunist leading popular demands from the people to divert it back into capitalist, let me know and I can share some).

• Translation of the above: “WE WILL NOT DIE FOR UKRAINE!”

• “NON a la 3e guerre mondiale” -> No to the Third world war.

• Pour la Paix -> For Peace

Most of the messaging and demands(written a few above), from my point of view, are actually progressive and lead to the weakening of the imperialist NATO and EU. Your mistake here will be to dismiss all of the people attending as reactionary just because they were lead by opportunists. Dismissing all of the people makes you dismiss the potential to lead the same people or even a bigger crowd without the opportunist and under an entirely new organization.

We are in dire need of mobilizing every aspect of society. We are in dire need of fostering solidarity in our country.

As learned by the recent Chile experience, fascism doesn’t enter solely through propaganda, it also enters through the open door of demobilization.

As learned by the American experience with Hands off Venezuela rally and Anna Novikova’s SOS Donbas, we can foster great movements if we take our chances. The masses can genuinely surprise us if we give them the chance.

Take care.

Huge show of character imo. Thank you and unblocked. I trust that we will keep a respectful and still deeply constructively critical view of ideas both anti right deviationist ans left deviationist.

Thanks for restoring part of my belief in this place comrade. o7

I 100% disagree with haui and still believe they are pushing anti semitic and racist thought which does not fit an ml analysis of what socialism/capitalism is and what the nature of the bourgeois class is like. them being called a nazi is only to be expected when they say things like"Im proud to be labeled an anti semite" For those who dont know that person pushed the idea that “the conspiracy theories about the jews like how they control the world are true except its the rich and not the jews.” they believe that the bourgeoisie are trying to destroy western culture/society and the left just doesnt care about preserving it and a lot more weird stuff.

I don’t want to come across as patsoc adjacent (and it will become hopefully become very clear why I am not patsoc adajecent if my comment history is not proof enough), this is more a critique (not criticism) of some the potential underlying sentiments (and therefore I would like to stress this is a generalised opinion not aimed at anyone individual person).

It is sometimes very challenging not to resolve to some sort of third worldism, if not accelerationism, when speaking to westerners even if they call themselves marxists. One has to keep telling themselves and relearning what it means to be dialectical materialist because honestly it feels like the West is not going to have any real revolutionary potential without the Global South forcing its hand. Rationally I know there needs to western home grown movements of scientific socialism, emotionally it often feels like this is idealism.

It very much feels, because of centuries of imperialism that Western cultures and western peoples, at large if not the majority, that the identity of what it means to be a Westerner is too much tied to that relationship of exploitation of the global south, and any remanants of older cultures that precdeded capitalism has been submsumed by this relationship.

Having said that, I feel, Haui is rightly trying to grapple the contradictions of how to grow mass movements amongst these reactionary masses and what concessions - that’s right concessions- does a western vanguard of scientific socialists have to consider while doing its best to avoid tailism. I do not have an answer here.

In the global south, reactionary sentitments - both religious or otherwise - are managed understanding that imperialism is the most significant global contradiction and it is through this we build solidarity. Maybe we use that same tool in the west too but the we reach a contradiction: if we understand that the material always comes before the idea then what benefit could we offer within the short term to Westerners that outweighs the benefit of imperialism - a social system they are already benefiting from?

I have posited in the past potentially those who may gain from the fall of US imperialism but this still leaves space for reactionaries who want to supercede it with their own national chauvinism.

I think there’s a language barrier - I am not getting the impression that they are antisemitic at this stage - I think they are responding to antisemitic accusations being levied due to being pro-palestinian.

I think the sentiment of understanding for example how Fanon’s work should be understood within the context of french imperialism against algerians in marked contrast to germans have been pretty good but I have not yet seen a response (for which I too do not have an answer either) is how to build a western vaguard of scientific socialists in this reactionary mess and to lead a mass movement from that. If one is not at least considering what concessions need to be made without resorting to tailism then whatever movement that comes out will not be strong enough to hold against the inevitable reaction.

Haui is right to allude to that fascists have long employed repurposing socialist analysis against capital exploitation - for example war against Russia here - for chauvinist needs, and that this needs narrative needs to be repurposed back with vigour and precision.

I thought I’d add my measley 2 cents so that it does not feel like we are ganging up on Haui

(Edited to add: I wonder if the “western” masses that would have revolutionary potential will end up being up being majority immigrants from the Global South, and even then we need to not fall to tailism of gusanos and patriarchy. I wonder if the kernel of truth amongst fascists is that the end of their Western project is through immigrant labour emancipation)

He has some dangerous ideas

What happened?