Whenever I mention that the way things get phrased in left spaces matters, I get yelled at that it doesn’t matter. This is why it matters.
I’m an adult, so.im not going to let some Internet Dipshit who can’t practice what they preach chase me right, but there’s plenty of vulnerable kids out there, who do have real problems, that are sick of being told those problems don’t matter because of how they look - which is similar to the people WHO ARE ALSO OPPRESSING THEM.
Stop attacking fellow victims of the system. You are not creating allies
God damn this hits hard. I was seriously in danger of falling down that hole as a kid, because kids are stupid and the right talks confidently and ad naseum. Also my father wasn’t exactly a stalwart of progressive ideals. I’m so very thankful for being a Mama’s boy, she is probably the reason I’m not the typical chud I look like.
With that being said, this is also a societal problem when so many parents offload their parenting to the web. And I say societal because it is not often times not the parent’s fault as having to work extended hours or multiple jobs just to provide the necessities.
It’s really a feature, not a flaw, of the right’s long term plan. Stupid people vote for stupid things.
They hated him because he said the truth (and didn’t hand over his platform to someone “more marginalized” after one single drama).
Struthless has a really good video about this. I’ve seen it happen to the young men in my life first-hand. To my siblings, my friends, and - yes - even to myself at one point. And that hole is a hell of a lot harder to climb out of than it is to fall into, and I’m very lucky to have had some good, caring people in my life who helped me to do it. An uncomfortable truth that we on the left must face, is that this is an issue that will only get worse the longer we pretend it doesn’t exist.
Just left a much less succinct version of this same exact sentiment. It really sucks seeing my family indoctrinate their own children, one of which is not severely but not moderately either spectrum. The sad shit I’ve heard come out of his mouth has been truly heart breaking.
Edit; watching that video was very reassuring as someone currently struggling with alcohol addiction. That compass metaphor was so incredibly powerful.
The last bit really speaks to me. “So they want a cookie for basic behavior??” YES THEY’RE CHILDREN. COOKIES ARE THE DRIVING MARKET FORCE IN PRETEENS. GIVE THE KID THE DAMN COOKIE.
Cookies are my driving force, and I am in my 60s.
Username definitely checks out and is so very wholesome. I picture you baking your own cookies and sitting down after a long day with one saying “I deserve this” and you absolutely do!
Username definitely checks out and is so very wholesome. I picture you baking your own cookies and sitting down after a long day with one saying “I deserve this” and you absolutely do!
The only reason this conversation exists is because there are billions of dollars propping up right wing grifters that don’t exist for the left. Like there ARE lefties in places like twitch, but for every one Hasan there’s a hundred Asmongolds. This is all downstream from media ownership by the capital class. Jamie pull up the Lenin quote about The Economist.
Am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying it requires billions of dollars to come up with effective messaging/marketing for the left, aimed at young boys and men?
Like… I hear you that the funding gap is a huge and fundamental problem, but I frankly don’t think its difficult at all to message leftist points to younger guys.
Give them a set of principles to hold themselves to, and explain to them why these are good principles.
‘A good man helps out his community to the greatest extent he can, a good man doesn’t hate others for no good reason, a good man is responsible enough to learn how to question what he is told so that he can discern the character and intent of others, a good man approaches the unknown and the strange not with fear, but with a measured yet hopeful curiosity’
Reject toxic masculinity but don’t just leave an empty void where it was, instead, actually replace it with an actually healthy and affirming masculinity.
And? That doesn’t change the fact that these spaces have inherently been beaming out “no boys allowed” for ages and then wondering why so many young men head elsewhere.
Our enemies’ tactics and financial backing doesn’t absolve us of responsibility for our own shortcomings.
these spaces have inherently been beaming out “no boys allowed” for ages
I disagree that that’s what they’ve been doing. That’s what reactionaries often characterize them as doing
Given the entire OP image and many of these comments, I really think you should reconsider.
I’m not saying it’s intentional or malicious, but there is a messaging and communication problem that is strongly contributing to ease at which the alt-right pipeline is recruiting teens and young men.
Part of the issue is that online, it’s often hard to tell the difference between someone who is genuinely asking questions and someone who is asking questions in bad faith. The (relative) anonymity between people is definitely a hindrance here, you can often not easily tell if the person you’re talking to is 15 or 30.
Could you give me an example of this asking questions in bad faith? I’ve heard it before but I just can’t wrap my head around what it means. Questions are questions and answers are answers. I’m of the opinion that unless it’s in private messages, even answering troll questions with earnest is useful as public comments have an audience.
If it were obvious from a single example, it wouldn’t work. The goal of bad faith discussion is to make the other party engage in good faith, and they won’t do that unless they think you’re also acting in good faith. Once they’re engaging, you can do things like waste loads of their time (it takes much less time to spout solve dumb bullshit than explain why it’s dumb bullshit), persuade bystanders that you’re right by arguing with more logical fallacies and unreliable sources than they can point out, and make it look like they’re being unreasonable by sealioning.
I think an under discussed issue is the people answering questions in bad faith as well, not just obvious trolls but those playing longer cons.
Doesnt matter if its in bad faith or not, just answer the question with an honest answer. Even if its a bad faith question, the answer isnt. And plenty of other people will read it.
Because of the bullshit assymmetry principle, this just means people end up burned out from answering things, which is one of the goals of bad faith questions.
It does not matter at all who the person asking the question is, how old they are, or whether they’re asking in good faith or not. You answer the question for the sake of the audience who will read it. Answering the question is an opportunity to demonstrate understanding, inclusiveness, and compassion. Even if you suspect that the person asking is doing so in bad faith, there is no downside to responding as if they were doing so in good faith, whereas attacking them for asking the question is all downside.
If you’re feeling frustrated and suspicious and you don’t have the patience for it in the moment, then do not engage. You’ll only do harm, to yourself, to them, and to anyone else who reads the discussion.
If it’s clearly bad faith, you report and remove it. It doesn’t actually benefit anyone to discuss with people who are using the question format to spread fascist conspiracy myths. Some posts are very blatant about it.
Don’t pretend to be a telepath, either. The moderators certainly aren’t telepaths. It’s pure speculation.
Then answer as though they are asking in good faith, remain calm (which can be difficult, I acknowledge), and avoid dismissing their feelings or position. Remember that you’re talking not just to them, but to everybody who reads the exchange in future, and some of those people will need those calm words to turn away from the rabbit hole.
Remember that you’re talking not just to them, but to everybody who reads the exchange in future, and some of those people will need those calm words to turn away from the rabbit hole.
This is the most important part. If they’re arguing in bad faith, or they’re just stubborn and stupid, you’re not going to change their mind even with the kindest and most comprehensive response. But there are lots of people watching, and a lot of those people are trying to decide how they feel about the subject in question.
The best thing you can do is stand out as the voice of reason in an exchange. Your conversational partner might not be convinced, but onlookers will be.
And take breaks. You don’t have to be everyone’s savior. Do the help you can, when you can and just try to make the internet a little safer and happier than you left it.
Even if they’re 30, it’s better late than never for them to learn, right?
If they’re going in without a desire to learn, you can’t really reach them, at least not with forum comments. They’ll probably need some work in person.
Some of these 30yos might even be paid trolls or bots.
Tbh, if someone is asking questions, that’s (kind of) already a good sign - even if in bad faith, at least it gives space for expressing an opposing viewpoint instead of just closing off all the discussion with insults and attacks.
I’m definitely not a fan of insults etc. - at worst, I’d just report it. The issue is that some of these bad faith posts are made by rightwing political activists, those aren’t in any way willing to change their point of view and are just binding resources that could be used elsewhere more productively. And if a community is targeted by those types, they can easily destroy it by posting so much that they dominate the feeds.
Heartbreaking: A Twitch Streamer Just Made a Great Point
The difference between liberal feminism and leftist feminism.
Yeah, let’s put a label on it because we really have to smear someone somehow. I think the messaging must have gone right over your head.
No.
They’re making a summary of distinctions made by a good deal of academics.
You are just unaware of these as pre-existing terms, so you think this person is the first person to put an adjective in front of feminism.
They are not.
Yes, I’m smearing Liberals.
What the person did there blaming kids to be inherently bad is a classic example of reactionary politics which Liberals specialise in plus given the history of liberal feminism particulalry in the US, I dont get why you’re offended.
Other aspects of Liberal femnism include:
- Thinking only specific cultures are enlightened enough to do feminism because other cultures might be “barbaric”
- Disdain for the working women who do menial jobs(prevelant in my country)
- Savarna Femnisim(upper caste femnisim) - related to the previous point but in this instance unique to upper class caste system practionerd in the subcontinent
- Blaming people of certain communities of being misoynistic bc they didn’t vote in a war criminal - related to the first point and prevelant in you know where
Point of all that yapping isn’t just about putting in “labels”. My point was recognising the fact that without having overall class consciousness feminism is useless as that version of feminism isn’t truly universal and doesnt actually tackle conditions as to why right-wing or misogyny appears. It’s the nature versus nurture argument which itself ties in to historical materialism. Sure empathizing with nurture vis-a-vis nature is not exlcusive to Marxism, but being a reactionary in regards to these sure is a lot more prevalant. Its the same reason you hear “Palestinians are inherently antisemitic” argument over and over again from imperial core liberals.
Yhank you for listening to my TED talk.
Sincerely,
Person who you will most certainly call an insane tankie for having the most milquetoast lefty opinion.
For what its worth, this anarchist agrees with you.
Where exactly does she mention twelve-year old boys?
Or is Vaush just doing his normal shitlib thing of pretending not to have heard what the other person was saying?
I love how the original comment says “men”, but this Twitch streamer pedophile can just ignore that to ramble about “12 year olds” and imply the left is too woke and everyone will act like it’s the greatest point anyone ever made.
everyone is 12 now though
It’s assholeish to bring it up that way if that wasn’t the original scope of what they were saying, but otherwise a fair point since teenage boys are probably the most vulnerable and relevant target for that kind of messaging.
shitlib
Oh look at you proving the entire point of the post.
Lots here are proving to be very defensive of a misogynistic creep masquerading as a leftist - is there any particular reason why?
I’m not defending anyone. I just find these purity politics disgusting.
You’ve all chosen a very interesting opportunity to start being concerned about “purity politics.”
No, I haven’t. You don’t know me. I’ve been against for a long time.
The OOP may not have directly said it in their original post. But when people talk about young men “falling down the alt-right pipeline” it is generally referring to how thoroughly targeted that entire like 12-18 age bracket is with right wing propaganda. You’re usually talking about kids that aren’t old enough to know they’re being taken for a ride yet. So while that person may have been referring to like… idk 18-22 year olds that’s such a huge outlier in the usual discussion that it should be clowned on.
idk much about the guy you’re talking about, but as someone with a 14 year old that I’ve had to teach to navigate this propaganda he’s accurate in this instance. The way the right talks to these young men is insidious, and the kind of sentiment OOP is espousing here does nothing to stop young men being pulled rightward.
But when people talk about young men
12-year olds aren’t “young men.”
idk much about the guy you’re talking about
Vaush is a proven misogynist creep. So it should come as no surprise that those of us who know what he and his (so-called) “dirtbag left” ilk really is all about - ie, reactionary shitlibs masquerading as leftists - doesn’t buy it when he suddenly jumps to the defence of a demographic that wasn’t even a part of the discussion.
12-year olds aren’t “young men”
Respectfully when I know for a fact that what this guy is talking about is happening because I’ve watched it happen to dozens of kids that age in my life and constantly see it in my own feeds because I try to keep my privacy at least a little so the algorithms can never decide if I’m a teen gamer boy they should push Neo-Nazi shit to or a newly out trans girl I could not give less of a fuck what your definition of “young men” is. In fact I think young men is a pretty fair generalization for dudes that could very well be beginning puberty depending on the person. If you’re claiming they weren’t part of the discussion when they very clearly need to be I think that’s a problem.
what this guy is talking about is happening
Feminists have been talking about this for more than a hundred years now… yet a reactionary grifter says it to score cheap points in an attempt to strawman his opponent and now you all want to die on this hill?
I’m starting to think the way it looks is the way it is.
If you agree that it’s happening, why do you minimize the statement by saying that 12 year old boys aren’t young men? Is it really so hard to leverage a win from even an imperfect messenger? I feel like if I disliked a guy but he happened to be saying a correct thing I’d leverage it into getting people to care about my cause.
Like maybe leading with how feminists have been talking about how reactionary forces prey on young men to perpetuate the patriarchal structure? Rather than saying fuck this guy he’s bad the person he’s responding to didn’t even mention 12 year old boys. Like… if we both agree that the right going after 12 year old boys is a problem, why are you sitting here arguing about some “reactionary grifter” that made up not even a quarter of the post?
The person you’re replying to is just trying to frustrate you.
He’s such a small part of the entire text that taking his statement as anything other than a jumping off point to start with feels a little silly.
Unfortunately, once in a rare while asshats can start a reasonable conversation.
Charitably, he could be presuming that the majority of the manosphere’s audience are teen boys or were when they got into it, which is plausible.
Charitably,
This is Vaush we are talking about - he proved himself unworthy of charitable interpretation a long time ago.
Tldr
I’ll try.
Left agenda sounds hostile to young boys. Right side exploits that, and are not honest about it. If you wanna teach them, you have to let them ask questions, let them feel included and not villainize them. Also, allegedly, there is more money behind right influencers. Less so behind left influencers.
Literacy matters.
If you choose not to read, the only opinions you will have on anything of importance will be the ones told to you by others.
And a long, narrow image of text on top of that as if links to source are an unknown concept & the disabled are unworthy: might as well be too long can’t read.
Turn the other cheek.
