PHOENIX (AP) – The 2024 presidential election is drawing an unusually robust field of independent, third party and long shot candidates hoping to capitalize on Americans’ ambivalence and frustration over a likely rematch between Democrat Joe Biden and Republican Donald Trump.
Don’t vote for a third party. That’s just voting for Trump with extra steps.
I think a lot of people thinking about voting third party are going to need reasons TO vote for someone, not reasons to not vote for the other guy. Telling them “it’s just voting for Trump” isn’t going to convince them.
And no, I’m not planning on voting third party. But finger-wagging won’t convince anyone already looking elsewhere.
Nah, the number one reason to vote lately is to prevent Trump from pissing all over democracy. Even Republicans are joining in.
So voting for the uniparty that picked the candidate for you is democracy?
We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic.
Not that that’s any better, but there is a difference between the two
Things Republicans say when defending voter suppression.
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If you don’t want me pointing out that you’re using the same argument here that Republicans use when they’re defending voter suppression, select a different argument than the one Republicans use when they’re defending voter suppression.
It’s not an argument, it’s a factual statement. There is no debate here. I stated the fact that we are a republic, not a democracy. Am I happy with it? No. So I support it? No.
It’s not an argument. It’s not a debate. It’s not a defense. It’s just a fact.
You interpreting this as anything else is entirely your fault.
That’s the point of Political discussion, to grow your arguments and to learn from mistakes. It isn’t to convince someone to chance their position, that is impossible.
Not an argument. It’s just a factual statement.
That’s not blue, it’s aqua! Both are blue Karen!
A Republic has a Consitution that separates power away from a single person.
A true Democracy has no means of protecting against a tyrant.
“That’s not a dog, it’s a German Shepard.”
A republic is a kind of democracy.
In other words lots of people have an incredibly childish attitude about voting and are completely prepared to throw a little tantrum in the voting booth even if it means fascists get to take over the whole federal government. I’m becoming pretty convinced that people like that are just incapable of rational decision making.
It’s crazy how people view voting. In life we have so many situations where we look at realistic options and choose the best thing, or even the least bad thing, from those options.
But then with voting people feel like making their vote should be like wishing on a birthday cake. It’s totally irrational, as you say.
If we don’t accept that irrational people exist and do what we can to get their votes, we risk the return of Trump.
But it’s way more fun to shout at them.
If you’re at a restaurant and they don’t have anything you want, you can go to a different restaurant.
In this case I’m tied to a chair and forced to pick a douche or a shit sandwich while people tell me I’m a bad person for not wanting either.
An apt analogy would be: you are diagnosed with cancer, and you can choose to (a) go through treatment and have a high chance of survival, or (b) let the cancer run its course and die.
Voting third party in this country is equivalent to saying “I’m going to go to a faith healer instead”. You think you’re choosing a more appealing option but you’re actually just choosing option b.
Nah, fuck that. A restaurant doesn’t serve cocaine-laced cupcakes that give you an orgasm, yet you still down the bacon cheeseburger because the latter tastes good and the former simply isn’t an option. Anyone who walks in and refuses to order from the menu because they can’t get a blowjob and a back massage with it, is a fucking moron.
You don’t walk in an order from the menu. You’re born in the restaurant, tied to a chair, told it’s the greatest restaurant ever created, and given two horrible choices.
And then people like you yell at me for pointing this out.
i would believe you were talking about people voting for republicans or people voting for democrats. everyone else is trying to avoid a further slide into fascism.
[finger-wagging intensifies]
Republicans are all for third party candidates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_election
It’s gonna be republicans making a protest vote. Democrats are in lock step for once
Trump might be the biggest reason to vote against him, but Republicans have played all their cards and threatened the American people’s rights. Even if he is locked up, Biden would still win.
I hope your confidence is founded.
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There are people who, despite the entirety of human history, fail to take into account that people aren’t always rational. In fact, they’re deeply offended by the suggestion and become hostile towards anyone who suggests that they should take this into account, even in situations in which the consequences for failing to do so are dire.
no, it’s not. it’s voting against trump by definition.
How about this… don’t take a guy who quietly supports genocide, whose been part of politics longer than I’ve been alive- in fact he’s been a senator for more than twice as long as I’ve been a voter- and make him the canidate.
Because, under your argument, that’s just giving voted to trump!!!
“Vote blue no matter who” is an argument that presupposes a good canidate is in office. Biden is not a good candidate; and the dems need to find somebody else to run him.
We saw the same problem with Hilary. Hilary was not a good canidate and in no way was actually capable of winning. You made the same arguments then as now.
You know Biden is going to lose votes. Why the fuck are you unwilling to consider someone else?
Do whatever the fuck you want to do, bro. When the day comes, you’ll have one of several bubbles to fill out, and you’ll make the choice you were gonna make anyway. Either you vote strategically for whoever has the best chance to ensure Trump doesn’t make it anywhere near the White House, or you vote for whoever makes you feel good, knowing Trump might win. If a second Trump presidency doesn’t scare you now, it won’t do anything different in a year. If Biden’s the nominee, I’ll crawl through a mine field covered in broken glass to vote for him. If he’s not, I’ll do the same for whoever the party nominates to replace him.
Biden is a good candidate. He hasn’t been impeached yet, unlike his competitor during this same time in his term; he hasn’t started a coup on his own country, and the fact that he’s experienced at the job he’s applying to is actually a good thing (displayed by the passing of both the CHIPs act and the IRA despite not having complete control of congress). Hilary was actually a significantly better candidate than Trump(very obvious in hindsight for many), but Trump had the advantage of Russian support and the fact that it was uncertain how he would act as president. Once voters found out how Trump is as a president, they turned away from him in droves as evidenced by the fact that he’s the first president to lose reelection in 20 years, and Republicans have lost every election since Trump was voted in.
Biden ain’t perfect, but man he’s a huge upgrade compared to Trump.
…the bar is in hell.
No,these are just some very simple, and objective comparisons that can be made because the alternative is someone literally below the bar that is in hell.
CHIPS ACT, Inflation Reduction Act, supporting unions are some more important things Biden has assisted with.
Way to ignore the rest of his fucking comment, douchebag.
Yeah he’s better than a literal facist who is currently making Nazi speeches and has promised to jail all his political opponents. What an incredibly high bar for Biden to stumble over!
Having your party position be “Bite your tongue and vote for our shit candidate to prevent the end of democracy” is not a winning position. It’s a terrible strategy guaranteed to lead to less voter turnout.
People voted for Biden during the primary election. We had Bernie, Warren, Pete and others who LOST to Biden so many Democrats feel he was better than others. Biden is a good candidate minus his age, which becomes slightly irrelevant compared to Trump. Biden has been aggressive in talking about how he has been supporting job creation,unions and getting laws passed despite the current GOP. The “Bite your tongue…” Argument is one of many Biden has (and doesn’t like to use because it of course doesn’t look as great as others)
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Removed for personal attacks. Keep it civil.
lets break that down a bit here. your argument is in 3 parts:
Point one applies to literally every one whose not trump; and even if go so far as to be ‘not-trump-like’, that would include a fair number of Republicans, too. It’s not an argument that should be seriously made when deciding who the Democratic candidate should be… because it’s pretty much a given.
Point two… that’s also an argument against. He’s been in the senate for longer than I’ve been alive. We need change. we don’t need the same washed up and tired ideas. Biden’s functional policies have only grudgingly changed. for example, if he wanted to legalize weed, he could have. He could have chosen to not open up Willow Project- like he had (indirectly) promised to not do. further, he’s only had what? 12 years experience in the excecutive branch? and 8 as second fiddle. his record there is pretty uninspiring, to be honest. You’re welcome to disagree.
point three- has Biden accomplished a lot? compared to trump? absolutely. Trump left this country in a shambles and Biden helped pick up the pieces. Helped- he was far from alone in that. and the CHIPS act is largely a no-brainer bill. same goes for the IRA and the infrastructure act. before trump came to office, all of them would have been hailed as modest bits of normalcy. Big bills? sure. Important? absolutely. but nothing worth bragging about.
It should be noted that most VBNW-type people are only pushing the first argument. Which is intellectually dishonest and a scare tactic. Virtually any one capable of being the democratic canidate is not trump, and is a far cry from trumpism. especially the actual progressives. we can talk about what Biden has done, and his policy decisions and where he’s propelled the country to. but from where I sit, most of his accomplishments are full of half measures.
Like, he kept the ship from listing more, and he’s bailing his hardest, but, the ship ain’t righting and it’s still leaking.
If we’re talking about candidate for president, then easily Biden is the best choice. Why would the DNC even think about not picking Biden as the candidate when Americans voted him in already, and he hasn’t shit the bed? Not only that, this is a literal repeat of the election Biden won, against the exact same opponent with the EXACT same platform and message. I should emphasize, Trump LOST his reelection something that hasn’t happened since HW Bush in '92 and yet Trump lost because he was so bad. So here we are a president running for reeelection in which there’s a history of presidents mainly winning their reelection campaigns. It seems like a no brainer, run Biden unless he messes up soon (since closer to election time, the calculus becomes harder to figure out).
In regards to my point 2, We tried something new with Trump and it was a train wreck. Having experience for a job is always a plus, when compared to someone that knows nothing/very little. I agree Biden isn’t exactly my cup of tea (voted for Bernie), but he’s not crap compared to other Democrats, and against Trump there’s not contest. But we’re passed deciding whether we need to change out Biden, that decision point was back during the primary.
Point three, Neither of those bills are modest and especially not with the current political atmosphere. Some R politicians are literally saying that Biden stole the election and has committed impeachable actions, they’ve been acting and voting with that in mind. The CHIPs act voted with overwhelming republican disapproval. So doesn’t seem like a no brainer decision for Republicans which makes it rather surprising that it passed in general. Same thing with the Inflation Reduction Act which is the biggest spending bill for the environment for US and world history. Republicans overwhelming voted against it in the House and Senate as well.
Seriously, compared to any ex-president other than trump, and at best he’s “Meh”.
Yep. because they’re the party of shitting themselves and blaming democrats. the point being, though, that while Biden did a fair amount of heavy lifting there- he didn’t do all the heavy lifting. Those bills aren’t exclusively biden’s win.
Half of the passengers are actively shooting holes into the ship. I don’t think there’s a human alive that could right it. There is no Ideal Candidate who can fix all these problems in one term - probably not even in two. So I don’t get why we’re holding Biden to this impossible standard where conservatives create problems faster than anyone can solve them, but then we hold Biden solely responsible for the both the cleanup and the progress we should have made in the meantime, but then we also won’t afford him the benefit of “helping.” In your words, “he was far from alone in that,” well why should he be?
He shouldn’t be alone, obviously.
The question isn’t whether or not some one is ideal. Or if they could right the ship- you’re right that’s basically impossible.
The question is… can some one do a better job? And I think the answer is yes. Now is not the time to play it safe. Hilary was the “safe” play and she lost. And she wasn’t responsible for supporting a genocidal state. (Well she might have done in biden’s shoes,)
Now is the time to come out swinging, because that’s the only way we’re going to get back to where we should be. Biden isn’t going to lead that charge because he’s as conservative as centrist republicans were 20 years ago, and under him… he’s kept us from getting worse (more or less,). But that’s it.
Is this your first election? Incumbency advantage and name recognition. Anyone who understands that and continues to make excuses to not vote for Biden is a Trump supporter. Either intentionally or through sheer privileged ignorance.
missing the point, and instead going straight to the fucking insults. POINT: Biden as a candidate sucks. nobody is saying Biden is actually their preferred candidate. he’s deeply unpopular and becoming increasingly so, and yet, you’re sitting here blaming people WARNING you about that… instead of maybe shopping around for another candidate- IN THE FREAKING PRIMARIES?
we’re winding up for another repeat of 2016, because people like you won’t get off their fucking high horse and actually listen to people. and you have the fucking gall to accuse ME of sheer privileged ignorance. Incidentally, I’ve had his exact same conversation with people, only about Hilary.
Oh and your point about incumbency… yeah, that’s increasingly becoming the millstone about his neck, Biden is far from the best, and he could be using what little positive influence he has now for supporting another candidate- LIKE HE FREAKING PROMISED LAST TIME.
Your choice is between President Biden, who has been a good President or the Antichrist. There isn’t anyone else running that is worth my time to look at. Your argument should wait until 2028 when Pete Buttigieg is the top candidate. Probably the most intelligent member of the Federal Government right there.
Appeal to fear is a logical fallacy and marketing gimmick.
We can and should do better. All I hear is “You’ll vote the way we tell you, and you’ll like it.”
To which my only response is “Okay, Boomer.”
The Consitution was written to support a two party system. You can change the game without a Consitutional Amendment.