Girls gone wild came out in 1997. Girls were kissing and having sex in college long before that.
Porn does not equate to public acceptance… There’s been gay porn since cameras became a thing, that doesn’t mean the majority of Americans would be fine with it in their homes.
This scene in DS9 was pure fan service. Sexy women kissing for the pleasure of men.
The important part is that it was played on a publicly accessible network and a show many people watched with their families. Not every first ice breaker is a deep piece of art, but it often allows for shows later down the line to improve on the subject without taking as much heat.
Also…“In the first draft, Dax’s former partner was written as male, but after this was changed, the story was cleared through studio executives. The Trill taboo was intended to be an allegory for homosexuality and homophobia.”
It was purposely changed as a commentary on homophobia.
You’re not wrong that they cleared it with the network (they had to clear everything with the network). What you’re missing is that the execution of the scene, what we actually saw on screen, was pure titillation. It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
You’d have a much better case if it were 2 men kissing. Jonathan Frakes wanted to do that for TNG! He was shut down completely.
What you’re missing is that the execution of the scene, what we actually saw on screen, was pure titillation. It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
You could make the same claim about Kirk Uhura… Just because it doesn’t fit your individual standards doesn’t mean it’s not significant.
It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
Again… I don’t think you really understand just how conservative America was about gay relationships in the 90s. Just because it was what you labeled as sexy, does not mean that conservative America was highly critical of it.
You’d have a much better case if it were 2 men kissing. Jonathan Frakes wanted to do that for TNG! He was shut down completely.
Just because one minority gets representation doesn’t mean that a different minority suffers from it. You can both be happy for lesbian representation and disappointment for the lack of gay male representation.
No, Uhura is clearly more than a sex appeal character. That role would fall to Janice Rand.
I grew up in the 90s. I understand it perfectly well. We had everything from Elton John to RuPaul. We were a long, long way from the days of Paul Lynde and the wink wink nudge nudge approach.
You can both be happy for lesbian representation
That scene is not lesbian representation, it’s two straight women kissing for the benefit of the audience. It’s 100% shot from a straight male gaze perspective.
Uhura is clearly more than a sex appeal character. That role would fall to Janice Rand.
Ahh… And dax is nothing but a piece of meat? They hinted at a same sex relationship in the first season, “rejoined” was just the culmination of that plot.
You’re just belittling it because both women were attractive.
grew up in the 90s. I understand it perfectly well. We had everything from Elton John
Elton only just came out publicly in the mid 90s and no one outside of the lgbtq scene really knew anything about RuPaul.
That scene is not lesbian representation,
I mean, I guess you’re entitled to having an incorrect opinion?
“Writers on Deep Space Nine had previously hinted at a potential same-sex relationship in the first season episode “Dax”, when Jadzia Dax says goodbye to Enina Tandro, a former lover of Dax’s previous male host, Curzon. The first take of the scene resulted in a situation in which it was unclear whether Dax and Enina were about to kiss. It was decided at the time that it was not appropriate, although the writers had hoped that there would be a time when the viewers would accept such a relationship. This theme was eventually realized in “Rejoined”.[12] Allen Kwan has argued that Deep Space Nine is the only series of Star Trek that resists the heteronormativity typical of the franchise at the time, citing both “Rejoined” and the Mirror Universe episodes as examples”
100% shot from a straight male gaze perspective.
It was the 90’s… And the first lesbian scene on television, of course it’s not going to be perfect. However, the scene isn’t salacious, nor is it driven by sex. I’d say the only thing that could be interpreted as “sexy” is the actresses being both attractive. But to boil the entire scene down to their looks is just objectifying the women in the scene.
I just don’t agree with any of the point you’re trying to make.
Dax is literally a worm living inside Jadzia’s body. Basically an alien parasite that evolved into a mutualism relationship instead.
Jadzia is more than a sex appeal of course. I’m talking about one scene, not her whole character.
If you look at her entire character it’s pretty clear that at no point is she living as a lesbian, closeted or otherwise. All of her interactions with male characters have romantic or at least flirtatious overtones (some unrequited), except with Sisko who she treats as an old friend (and he refers to her as old man). Her only major romantic relationship that takes place during the running of the show is her romance and marriage to Worf.
Furthermore, I take exception to quotes from the show’s writing staff. The writers’ goals and intentions literally do not matter. Only what appears in the show as it aired (“the text”).
Just as we shouldn’t pay any attention to what JK Rowling says now (about Dumbledore’s sexuality or other issues), so too should we ignore what the DS9 writers have said since.
Oh and by the way, I’ve known about RuPaul since the 90s and I am not in the community. He reached #2 on the billboard hot dance music chart with Supermodel, recorded in 1992.
Dax is literally a worm living inside Jadzia’s body. Basically an alien parasite that evolved into a mutualism relationship instead.
That was the intention of the writers…Trills are forced to live multiple lives and we’re not forced into a gender normative.
Jadzia is more than a sex appeal of course. I’m talking about one scene, not her whole character.
So with Uhura we’re evaluating her whole character, but with Jadzia we’re not?
If you look at her entire character it’s pretty clear that at no point is she living as a lesbian, closeted or otherwise. All of her interactions with male characters have romantic or at least flirtatious overtones (some unrequited), except with Sisko who she treats as an old friend (and he refers to her as old man). Her only major romantic relationship that takes place during the running of the show is her romance and marriage to Worf.
Seems like you’ve never heard of a bi or pansexual? That or you’re just obsessed with some kind of lesbian purity test?
Imo any representation that put lgbtq people in a positive light or made the average American even slightly empathetical to their character was both positive and rare.
Furthermore, I take exception to quotes from the show’s writing staff. The writers’ goals and intentions literally do not matter. Only what appears in the show as it aired (“the text”).
I don’t think you get to decide that? Intention and context matters to most people.
Just as we shouldn’t pay any attention to what JK Rowling says now (about Dumbledore’s sexuality or other issues), so too should we ignore what the DS9 writers have said since.
Lol, I think there’s a bit of a difference between a writer retconning their work for publicity and writer explaining their process and intent. Trying to conflate the two is just a dishonest argument.
Oh and by the way, I’ve known about RuPaul since the 90s and I am not in the community. He reached #2 on the billboard hot dance music chart with Supermodel, recorded in 1992.
Number #2 on the billboard hot dance, aka #45 on the billboard top 100. Meaning still not very popular to the average household.
We’re not talking about your experiences… We’re talking about America as a whole in the 90s, which was still very anti-gay in most every way imaginable.
Idk, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree at this point. I don’t really feel like continuing talking to someone who is obviously not very inclusive on the subject.
I don’t think we actually disagree all that much. Our main point of disagreement is on the degrees of stuff. It seems I think the 90s was way less extreme (on the bad side) than you do, and that Star Trek was also way less extreme than you do (on the progressive side).
To be honest, you’ve made it sound like the 90s America was pretty much like Saudi Arabia and that Star Trek as depicted was the full realization of Gene Roddenberry’s post-race free love communist utopia. The reality of both was far more moderate. I’d even argue that there’s a lot more anti-gay sentiment and hostility around now than there was in the 90s.
It seems I think the 90s was way less extreme (on the bad side) than you do
You mean the decade don’t ask don’t tell was put into place because a gay sailor was stomped to death by his co-worker? Or the decade that consistently allowed men to get away with torture and murder because the victim was gay?
Star Trek was also way less extreme than you do (on the progressive side).
I never claimed it was extremely progressive, I just said that any form of representation is important when there hasn’t ever been any.
To be honest, you’ve made it sound like the 90s America was pretty much like Saudi Arabia
I’m guessing you never lived in the American south? It’s nice that you grew up in a liberal oasis, but Ive seen friends completely disowned by their families for their sexuality. I’ve had friends beaten to an inch of their life after being outed, and that happened in the 00s.
Your experience is not universal, or even that common.
Star Trek as depicted was the full realization of Gene Roddenberry’s post-race free love communist utopia
The only thing I’ve done is state that the first non salacity lesbian kiss to be broadcasted on public television was significant.
I’d even argue that there’s a lot more anti-gay sentiment and hostility around now than there was in the 90s.
That may be the stupidest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Gay people literally have the right to get married now. Don’t ask don’t tell is no longer a policy of the US military. The aids crisis isn’t pouring fuel on the fire of bigots.
Do you not remember Queer Nation having to be formed in a response to increase violence against the community? Or the fact that the expansion of sexual orientation to hate crimes was in response to the rise in crimes against the LGBT community in the 90s?
There’s been a rise in antitrans sentiment, but even in conservative spaces there’s more acceptance for traditional gay relationships.
Porn does not equate to public acceptance… There’s been gay porn since cameras became a thing, that doesn’t mean the majority of Americans would be fine with it in their homes.
The important part is that it was played on a publicly accessible network and a show many people watched with their families. Not every first ice breaker is a deep piece of art, but it often allows for shows later down the line to improve on the subject without taking as much heat.
Also…“In the first draft, Dax’s former partner was written as male, but after this was changed, the story was cleared through studio executives. The Trill taboo was intended to be an allegory for homosexuality and homophobia.”
It was purposely changed as a commentary on homophobia.
You’re not wrong that they cleared it with the network (they had to clear everything with the network). What you’re missing is that the execution of the scene, what we actually saw on screen, was pure titillation. It was sex and sex sold to a heterosexual (predominantly white) male audience.
You’d have a much better case if it were 2 men kissing. Jonathan Frakes wanted to do that for TNG! He was shut down completely.
You could make the same claim about Kirk Uhura… Just because it doesn’t fit your individual standards doesn’t mean it’s not significant.
Again… I don’t think you really understand just how conservative America was about gay relationships in the 90s. Just because it was what you labeled as sexy, does not mean that conservative America was highly critical of it.
Just because one minority gets representation doesn’t mean that a different minority suffers from it. You can both be happy for lesbian representation and disappointment for the lack of gay male representation.
No, Uhura is clearly more than a sex appeal character. That role would fall to Janice Rand.
I grew up in the 90s. I understand it perfectly well. We had everything from Elton John to RuPaul. We were a long, long way from the days of Paul Lynde and the wink wink nudge nudge approach.
That scene is not lesbian representation, it’s two straight women kissing for the benefit of the audience. It’s 100% shot from a straight male gaze perspective.
Ahh… And dax is nothing but a piece of meat? They hinted at a same sex relationship in the first season, “rejoined” was just the culmination of that plot.
You’re just belittling it because both women were attractive.
Elton only just came out publicly in the mid 90s and no one outside of the lgbtq scene really knew anything about RuPaul.
I mean, I guess you’re entitled to having an incorrect opinion?
“Writers on Deep Space Nine had previously hinted at a potential same-sex relationship in the first season episode “Dax”, when Jadzia Dax says goodbye to Enina Tandro, a former lover of Dax’s previous male host, Curzon. The first take of the scene resulted in a situation in which it was unclear whether Dax and Enina were about to kiss. It was decided at the time that it was not appropriate, although the writers had hoped that there would be a time when the viewers would accept such a relationship. This theme was eventually realized in “Rejoined”.[12] Allen Kwan has argued that Deep Space Nine is the only series of Star Trek that resists the heteronormativity typical of the franchise at the time, citing both “Rejoined” and the Mirror Universe episodes as examples”
It was the 90’s… And the first lesbian scene on television, of course it’s not going to be perfect. However, the scene isn’t salacious, nor is it driven by sex. I’d say the only thing that could be interpreted as “sexy” is the actresses being both attractive. But to boil the entire scene down to their looks is just objectifying the women in the scene.
I just don’t agree with any of the point you’re trying to make.
Dax is literally a worm living inside Jadzia’s body. Basically an alien parasite that evolved into a mutualism relationship instead.
Jadzia is more than a sex appeal of course. I’m talking about one scene, not her whole character.
If you look at her entire character it’s pretty clear that at no point is she living as a lesbian, closeted or otherwise. All of her interactions with male characters have romantic or at least flirtatious overtones (some unrequited), except with Sisko who she treats as an old friend (and he refers to her as old man). Her only major romantic relationship that takes place during the running of the show is her romance and marriage to Worf.
Furthermore, I take exception to quotes from the show’s writing staff. The writers’ goals and intentions literally do not matter. Only what appears in the show as it aired (“the text”).
Just as we shouldn’t pay any attention to what JK Rowling says now (about Dumbledore’s sexuality or other issues), so too should we ignore what the DS9 writers have said since.
Oh and by the way, I’ve known about RuPaul since the 90s and I am not in the community. He reached #2 on the billboard hot dance music chart with Supermodel, recorded in 1992.
That was the intention of the writers…Trills are forced to live multiple lives and we’re not forced into a gender normative.
So with Uhura we’re evaluating her whole character, but with Jadzia we’re not?
Seems like you’ve never heard of a bi or pansexual? That or you’re just obsessed with some kind of lesbian purity test?
Imo any representation that put lgbtq people in a positive light or made the average American even slightly empathetical to their character was both positive and rare.
I don’t think you get to decide that? Intention and context matters to most people.
Lol, I think there’s a bit of a difference between a writer retconning their work for publicity and writer explaining their process and intent. Trying to conflate the two is just a dishonest argument.
Number #2 on the billboard hot dance, aka #45 on the billboard top 100. Meaning still not very popular to the average household.
We’re not talking about your experiences… We’re talking about America as a whole in the 90s, which was still very anti-gay in most every way imaginable.
Idk, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree at this point. I don’t really feel like continuing talking to someone who is obviously not very inclusive on the subject.
I don’t think we actually disagree all that much. Our main point of disagreement is on the degrees of stuff. It seems I think the 90s was way less extreme (on the bad side) than you do, and that Star Trek was also way less extreme than you do (on the progressive side).
To be honest, you’ve made it sound like the 90s America was pretty much like Saudi Arabia and that Star Trek as depicted was the full realization of Gene Roddenberry’s post-race free love communist utopia. The reality of both was far more moderate. I’d even argue that there’s a lot more anti-gay sentiment and hostility around now than there was in the 90s.
You mean the decade don’t ask don’t tell was put into place because a gay sailor was stomped to death by his co-worker? Or the decade that consistently allowed men to get away with torture and murder because the victim was gay?
I never claimed it was extremely progressive, I just said that any form of representation is important when there hasn’t ever been any.
I’m guessing you never lived in the American south? It’s nice that you grew up in a liberal oasis, but Ive seen friends completely disowned by their families for their sexuality. I’ve had friends beaten to an inch of their life after being outed, and that happened in the 00s.
Your experience is not universal, or even that common.
The only thing I’ve done is state that the first non salacity lesbian kiss to be broadcasted on public television was significant.
That may be the stupidest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Gay people literally have the right to get married now. Don’t ask don’t tell is no longer a policy of the US military. The aids crisis isn’t pouring fuel on the fire of bigots.
Do you not remember Queer Nation having to be formed in a response to increase violence against the community? Or the fact that the expansion of sexual orientation to hate crimes was in response to the rise in crimes against the LGBT community in the 90s?
There’s been a rise in antitrans sentiment, but even in conservative spaces there’s more acceptance for traditional gay relationships.