I’ve been thinking about this amped up conservative rhetoric that liberals and leftists hate America. We all know that’s BS. Right? Except it’s not, and we should respond to it for what it is.

“I love an America I grew up in. I love an America I believe in, that I lived most of my life in. Now, the idea of America that you’re fighting and “winning” for is killing that America I live in, that I love. So you’re right. I hate what you imagine America to be… because it is trying to murder the America that I love. And I don’t use the word “murder” lightly, and I apply it to you. And if that means to you that I hate America… then you’re right! The America you believe in isn’t lovable.”

That’s all.

  • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    23 hours ago

    I hate this argument because you’re just two different versions of national supremacists.

    On one side, you have the red magas that believe american supremacy can be re-achieved by kicking out everyone that isn’t white and being mask off in its exploitation of the world.

    On the other side you have the blue magas that believe american supremacy can be re-achieved by being as mask-on as possible about freedom and all the usual liberal bullshit that america spews but doesn’t actually practice. This lot are just liars, using ideals and moralism as a mask for the exploitation reaped upon the world.

    Both are dogshit, both are nationalists, both are motivated by american supremacy, and when both are gone the world will be a far brighter place.

  • Flinch [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    gotta be honest, I hate America. I was born here, raised here, paid taxes for 20-something years. I’m a born and bred corn-fed American boy. I understand why people shout “death to America”. i understand why people call it the Great Satan. the death and destruction this country has wrought across the globe is immeasurable. from chemical weapons in Vietnam, eradication campaigns in the Korean war, two destructive invasions of Iraq, reinforcing the opium trade all across the world but specifically in Afghanistan, the list goes on.

    if you don’t want to count foreign atrocities, just look to the homeland. generations of slavery, and “post-slavery” discrimination have destroyed generations of people. every homeless person in every city is a person failed by their own government, left to rot on the streets because they’ve been deemed worthless, many of them disabled veterans who themselves believed they were fighting for something better. this country has failed them, abandoned them. I don’t know how anyone could be proud of that.

  • Chana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    America is the home base of global capitalism and the global violence it exports, including both military and economic violence. America is why you see childrens’ deaths livestreamed from Gaza, it is why there is genocide there, and it is why if you try to fight back against that genocide you are put on lists, harassed, and worse. Repeat ad nauseum for virtually every war and mass dispossession. When nations try to free themselves from this, even while maintaining capitalism, they are targeted for vilification and destruction by the US through its myriad apparatises.

    For example, Venezuela has been targeted with media vilification, military threats and coups attempts, and broad civilian-targeted sanctions because they nationalized segments of their oil industry to use to fund projects for their people and to diversify their economy. Capitalist relations remained. With the US doing its best to destroy the Venezuelan economy, any failures are highlighted as a failure of “socialism”. With the US doing its best to promote opposition political factions and murder current leadership, efforts to oppose this immediately receive bad faith accusations of dictatorship while unelected opposition figures get to control Venezuela’s foreign reserves. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans die every yeae from this US-impossd regime and it all comes from simply attempting to use one’s own resources to benefit one’s own people rather than serve the balance sheet of bankers in New York.

    If you want justice, you must hate America. If you don’t hate America, you make excuses for injustice or even contribute to it, like our ex-military friend in the comments that can’t do any amount of self-criticism over dedicating much of their life to the death and deprivation machine for domination of other peoples.

  • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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    1 day ago

    I’ve been thinking about this amped up conservative rhetoric that liberals and leftists hate America. We all know that’s BS.

    I’m American and a proud America hater. It’s bad enough we’re a shithole but we can’t even keep our shit contained to our borders, we go around terrorizing the world, spreading war and exploitation and fascism to every corner of it. What is there to be “proud” of in that? When we put a stop to that shit, that will be something I can be proud of.

    You gotta clean your house before you start talking about being “proud” of it. It’s like you’re inviting guests over and there’s dried dog turds all over the carpet and you’re being like, “I’m really proud of what I’ve done with the place, don’t you like it?” That’s insane. The only reason to not be on your knees apologizing and begging for forgiveness is because actually getting rid of the dog shit is more important. And once we’ve done that, once we’ve actually cleaned up our act and made something of ourselves, then maybe we can build something worth taking pride in. But this shit? Absolutely not.

  • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 day ago

    I disagree. Feeling a strong emotion for a nation is a perfectly reasonable and human thing to do. Not that I’m trying to change your mind… just saying I don’t feel that way. :)

    I’m an anarchist who’s only lived in VERY blue places (including angry blue places, like Oakland). I imagine if I’d had a lot of exposure to that kind of environment, I’d have some pretty different feelings about the definition of patriotism too.

    Beyond parody

  • seahorse [Ohio]@midwest.social
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    The America most people grew up in was shit too. People are angry now only because it’s turned its tyranny inwards on its own privileged people who have until this point not been severely impacted by its actions. The america my mom was born into didn’t even let black people vote.

  • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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    I love an America I grew up in.

    I understand this feeling, and I do think it’s a valid way to feel. I don’t doubt that you had a happy childhood and early adulthood in the America you remember. However, I think that your explanation - that America changed fundamentally - is not the correct one. America, as other users have pointed out in their comments, has always been a vile state. You can see where it’s going now because you’re a politically aware adult. If you had been one in the times you remember from your childhood, you probably would have seen it then as well. It’s not America that’s changing fundamentally (it is changing, just not fundamentally), it’s you.

  • Assian_Candor [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    The nation state of America has been a nexus of reactionary violence from its moment of birth as a genocidal settler colonial empire to a foundational pillar of the transatlantic slave trade to its codified and then de facto apartheid which persists to this day. It has taken every opportunity to wield its power whether economically or militarily to squash every single instance of self-determination by the proletariat of the world that would threaten its systems of extractive oppression and violence, not blinking twice when engaging in the wholesale murder of civilian populations

    So yeah don’t put me in your tent. Maybe liberals still love America but you are grossly misinformed, misguided, and heavily propagandized

  • Doubledee [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    I dunno. I don’t love the America of the 90s that was impoverishing the entire Eastern Bloc and like, invading Iraq and stuff. Or the one that opened a torture prison in Cuba in the 00s, invaded Iraq again, and terrified people across the world with an unaccountable drone war through the Obama years (to say nothing of Libya and the militarization of police).

    You loved that America? The drone war/war on terror one?

    • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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      If nation means the government, the social order, the economic structure, even the cultural trappings… yes.

      If nation means home… no.

      Your home requires your care - it needs you, as much as you need it. It will not improve if you do not care for it.

    • The Bard in Green@lemmy.starlightkel.xyzOP
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      2 days ago

      I disagree. Feeling a strong emotion for a nation is a perfectly reasonable and human thing to do. Not that I’m trying to change your mind… just saying I don’t feel that way. :)

      • A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world
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        Yeah i know im the odd one out. It’s nothing new.

        Im an anarchist in the Bible Belt so… im good without any patriotism thanks.

        • The Bard in Green@lemmy.starlightkel.xyzOP
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          I’m an anarchist who’s only lived in VERY blue places (including angry blue places, like Oakland). I imagine if I’d had a lot of exposure to that kind of environment, I’d have some pretty different feelings about the definition of patriotism too.

          • Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            youre an “anarchist” who “loves america”

            buddy i think you should do some reading about your own country. maybe some reading about the ideology you supposedly hold. i believe these things are in total conflict with one another.

            • The Bard in Green@lemmy.starlightkel.xyzOP
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              23 hours ago

              Yes, obviously my point of view is just simplified like that and isn’t nuanced at all and jumping straight into trying to start leftest infighting is a great use of both our emotional energy. :)

          • A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Thats fair. I’ve been watching Republicans froth at the mouth since 9/11 while they keep getting poorer and dying of addiction. It leaves a taste.

  • _cryptagion [he/him]@anarchist.nexus
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    2 days ago

    It’s pretty weird, the fetish some people have for imaginary regions on a map. America only exists as a collective hallucination that people agree to in order to give themselves a good reason to feel superior to others.

    I don’t love America at all, and even though I live in the place known as America, I would feel absolutely nothing for it if it ceased to exist tomorrow. I certainly wouldn’t fight for it.

  • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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    I love America. I joined the army to serve. … Well, if I’m being honest I joined for the GI Bill and vocational training, but I wouldn’t have if I didn’t believe in and love my country.

    But sometimes love means having to stage an intervention when the object of your love is on a self-destructive path. And fuck, are we ever. Self destructive because we are embracing hate of everything that made this country great to begin with.

    I love what this country has achieved, but now it’s run by entitled pricks who never had to bear the cost of that greatness. And so, painfully and wasteful, we will have to shoulder the burden of becoming great again. Really great, not the MAGA/Temu version.

    But I love America enough to be part of that process.

    • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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      How does it feel to have helped been a part of an effort to blow browns up in foreign lands for vocational training? Was it worth it to help your fellow soldiers invade another country and murder hundreds of people? What war did you fight in? Can you sleep at night? Fascist piece of shit.

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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        How does it feel to have helped been a part of an effort to blow browns up in foreign lands for vocational training?

        Nothing I did supported any effort like that. The things I worked on might have helped to reduce the mines in brown or foreign lands though.

        Was it worth it to help your fellow soldiers invade another country and murder hundreds of people?

        The world isn’t black and white. To participate in any society is to participate in things you disagree with. If I manufactured car engines or computer chips I’d have contributed more to those efforts. The important thing is I fight to change the parts I disagree with.

        What war did you fight in?

        I never deployed so none.

        Can you sleep at night?

        Like a baby.

        Fascist piece of shit.

        Said to someone who has said, “I am antifa, come at me bro.”

        Welp, people gonna people.

        • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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          Yeah you are a fascist because you are currently proud of joining a fascist genocidal army to help with its continued existence. The mines were probably in the ground in the first place because of your shit hole country and the army your proudly served in either directly or indirectly causing the conflict. If you truly want to be anti fascist you need to come to terms with this and the fact that your country is an evil genocidal settler nation, and then decide what to do from there. One things for sure you definitely won’t be so proud about “serving” anymore.

          • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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            I can love my country and want it to be better. I can be proud to serve my people and fight for better leadership.

            • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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              You served your ruling class and shareholders by helping clean the floors of the SS headquarters. You fought for suffering and genocide in the third world.

    • culpritus [any]@hexbear.net
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      I’m imagining “God Bless the U.S.A.” playing over a supercut of foreign and domestic state violence over the last 50 years, while you stand saluting the flag waving over millions of corpses.

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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        I mean I can’t stand religion so I’d hate that for completely different reasons.

          • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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            I’m not really what would traditionally be considered a patriot. Look I don’t know what you hexbears are trying to do here, but I really don’t think it’s working. I, at least, am left with the impression you have more rage than good sense. Good luck with your hate. I’m not really about that.

    • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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      And so, painfully and wasteful, we will have to shoulder the burden of becoming great again. Really great, not the MAGA/Temu version.

      Every time the violence of the American empire is turned inwards (unless it’s only on marginalized people), its privileged citizens say it’s not who they are and liken it to Russia, or China, or whoever the enemy of the day is. What do you think you participated in as a soldier? This IS America, you’re just part of the group that experiences it this time - and it would have to become much worse than it is now to be a fraction of what black people (or indigenous people, or many other groups) have experienced in your own country or Iraqi people have experienced at the hands of your soldiers and sanctions.

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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        You imagine I thought America was wonderful before Trump? No. I love America and will fight to make it better, not because I’m suddenly shocked to discover it’s not what I always thought it was, but because I’ve always fought for it to be better.

        What do you think you participated in as a soldier?

        Mostly, cleaning things.

        • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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          Mostly, cleaning things.

          This is a weak deflection. You were part of a system whose purpose is to destroy the lives people around the world who might harm US hegemony. Some members of the British navy at the height of their colonial power only cleaned warehouses, they still maintained a system that enslaved and massacred hundreds of millions. You should be ashamed of having been an American soldier, not proud to have served your country.

          • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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            Hmm… sorry, no. I was no more a part of that situation than any other citizen. And I’m not ashamed in the least. Not. In. The. Least.

            • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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              Hmm… sorry, no. I was no more a part of that situation than any other citizen. And I’m not ashamed in the least. Not. In. The. Least.

              Other than being part of the army, lmao. Didn’t know all of the citizens of the US served in the military, you learn something new every day.

              “I’m not ashamed I contributed to and participated in the oppression and domination of most of the world” is not the good reply you think it is. The American military just weeks ago finished helping Israel strike their neighbors to allow them to more easily continue their genocide. Rethink your pride.

              • MagicShel@lemmy.zip
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                I had literally nothing to do with that. I haven’t been in the army in almost 30 years. But also, oppression and domination isn’t all the army does. Or even mostly. I fixed mine detectors, and mines are a particularly horrific form of warfare, particularly to civilians. And you have the whole corps of engineers. Plenty of jobs in the army are just jobs.

                But insofar as I was part of the big stick that enabled speaking softly to succeed, yeah I’m proud of that.

                • Chana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  But insofar as I was part of the big stick that enabled speaking softly to succeed, yeah I’m proud of that.

                  “Speak softly and carry a big stick” is a reference to Teddy Roosevelt and his military-backed coups, invasions, and threats to control and disrupt Caribbean, Central American, and South American countries and people. Teddy Roosevelt himself was deeply racist and did his best to finalize anti-indigenous American genocide campaigns.

                  The kind of things you helped with, just not written about correctly in the history books yet.

                  So, which wars did you assist by “cleaning”?

                • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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                  But insofar as I was part of the big stick that enabled speaking softly to succeed, yeah I’m proud of that.

                  For a brief shining second I thought you had said “not proud”. Was Fallujah “speaking softly”?

                • Ram_The_Manparts [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  24 hours ago

                  But insofar as I was part of the big stick that enabled speaking softly to succeed, yeah I’m proud of that.

                  This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever read, so congrats on that picard

  • Null User Object@lemmy.world
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    But you have to be careful, because they will happily edit all that down to just,

    I hate America… you’re right!

    And use that to justify to their base why you deserve whatever they do to you.

    • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social
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      Yeah, fuck ‘em, they’re gonna do that no matter what. The trick is to be loud and proud enough that people hear our message directly, and can compare it to the gutless liars’ version.