• bleistift2@sopuli.xyz
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    23 hours ago

    What’s the alternative for a voter? Vote for the worse of the two evils directly?

    • neidu3@sh.itjust.works
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      22 hours ago

      Vote in primaries and local elections so that the lesser of two evils actually consists of people deserving your vote on their own merit. I’m willing to bet 90% of the ones who voted Trump or Stein to “TeAcH dEmS a LeSsOn” did not do anything to shape the party beforehand.

      People seem to care a lot about presidential general elections, but ignore primaries, locals, midterms, councils. Democracy means more than getting off your ass once every four years.

      • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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        23 hours ago

        You should absolutely do this, but even if your primary choice doesn’t win lesser evil is still better.

        We have the ability to pursue multiple angles of attack.

        • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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          13 hours ago

          lesser evil just feels better and has no upside unless you’re close enough to the privileged class of people.

          • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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            12 hours ago

            That’s exactly backwards. Anything but lesser evil is used as a self righteous virtue signal, and wasting a vote is extremely privileged.

    • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      22 hours ago

      Change comes from pressure from the streets. Vote for the lesser even and then protest against them.

      • Ryanmiller70@lemmy.zip
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        14 hours ago

        The only protest that works is one followed by threats of violence if their demands aren’t met. Nobody in government gives a flying fuck if their livelihoods aren’t threatened. MLK wouldn’t have been successful without Malcolm X.

        • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 hours ago

          Strikes, especially general strikes, and sabotage can also do the trick but I’m not against violence either

      • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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        13 hours ago

        the dnc leadership doesn’t care; that’s why they’ve been caving.

        • lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 hours ago

          Make them care. They cared about the citizen rights movement and the suffragettes. The great new deal was a reaction to the unemployed movement

        • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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          13 hours ago

          the lesser evil is captured opposition; have you not been paying attention?

    • PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      22 hours ago

      I think your question is intended to silently include “what’s the alternative for a voter [in a given election]?” - if I’m wrong about that, my bad.

      But the issue to me is not about choices in individual elections. The issue is that these vocally “lesser of two evils” voters do their thing, then smugly pat themselves on the back and self-righteously condemn the sad state of affairs, every time…

      And then continue to take the idiot bait that anything left of present Democrats is scary bad socialism/communism, no further-left candidate can have a shot with real Americans, and wouldn’t our energy be better spent trying to find things we agree on and can get done together?

      They don’t learn anything about how the rest of the world works politically, they don’t know dick about any candidates or ideas that don’t appear ready-made and polished on a television screen, and yet they think they’re the ones helping, and if only we all just did like them, this place would turn right around. They want to do nothing, to sound wise, and to feel morally superior all at the same time. This is the core of the vocally “lesser of two evils” voters.

      I know because I used to be one of these insufferable people I’m describing.

      • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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        21 hours ago

        The issue is that these vocally “lesser of two evils” voters do their thing, then smugly pat themselves on the back and self-righteously condemn the sad state of affairs, every time…

        Why do you assume this? It’s probably true for the quiet “lesser of two evil” voters, but the vocal ones tend to be leftists who recognize the limitations of FPTP elections and are doing other leftist things, and are trying to get others to help make the environment marginally less hostile so they can do leftist things more effectively.

        I know because I’m one of those actively leftist “lesser of two evil” voters.

        • PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          19 hours ago

          Well, yeah, fair point lol, I definitely have an imagined “type” in mind here and jumped to the assumption that it’s all those who are vocally “lesser of two evils”.

          Really I was less making an assumption and more just (inaccurately, as you pointed out) using that as shorthand for the set of voters who vote lesser of two evils, but then go on to do the kinds of shit that allows for the image above. Berate others for daring to demand more than two evils, or encourage trying to find common ground with the increasingly far right as a viable means of progress, and worse.

          You’re right, it’s not everyone who talks about the importance of still voting when it’s two bad candidates, and I myself think it’s important to do that. I think it just feels like the folks who are always making the discussion about that idea are also usually the ones doing the other destructive (while condescendingly ~well-intentioned) stuff I was describing. Sounds like you feel the opposite, which I’m willing to chalk up to the nature of having different experiences, idk. Definitely not common enough to use as shorthand apparently, that’s on me.

          • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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            17 hours ago

            Berate others for daring to demand more than two evils

            I don’t think it’s for “daring to demand”, it’s more about the nature, mechanics, and outcome of the demand.

            I’m all for developing better alternatives in the background while applying effective pressure on the lesser evil, to establish a foundation to make demands when the time is right and the social apparatus is prepared to enforce those demands.

            I’m not at all about protest abstention or pushing longshot third parties. At least a part of the voices pushing for that reek of bad faith actors deliberately trying to cause fractures to give greater evil better odds. Not all of it, but even some of the rest is just parroting psy-op taking points.

            I agree just voting isn’t enough, but I think most of the voices that care enough to keep people voting strategically in the face of these fractures care enough to be taking other actions too. The lazy, self-righteous ones don’t care enough to push any strategy at all.

    • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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      23 hours ago

      OP wants to burn it all to a crisp and start over from scratch. Auferstanden aus Ruinen I suppose.

      • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
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        23 hours ago

        Wanting representatives who represent people isn’t burning down anything.

        Fuck off with this capitalist bootlicker rhetoric

        You sound like a domestic abuse victum that thinks if they behave then the abuser will go easy on them next time.

        It’s a toxic way to approach politics, and is desigend to keep you fighting your neighbors instead of your leaders.

        • null@lemmy.nullspace.lol
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          23 hours ago

          Wanting representatives who represent people isn’t burning down anything.

          If only the meme said anything resembling that.

          • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
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            22 hours ago

            Voting for democrats who then capitulate to fascists leads to the overton window moving to the right.

            Most Democrat voters don’t want that to happen.

            That means they are not representing their voters.

            I’m sorry you have a hard time engaging with reality. It must be really hard to make sense of the current landscape through the Neoliberal bootlicker lense

            • jackr@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              22 hours ago

              not voting for democrats makes it likelier for republicans to win, thus moving the overton window even farther right. Your frustration should be with people who think voting is the only action you can take, not with people who use voting as one of many actions that should be taken.

              • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                You need to internalize the fact that young and leftist votes did not meaningfully impact the election.

                If you want to attack the people who voted for Biden but stayed home for Kamala, those were white boomer/millennial men/women and boomer/millennial hispanic men.

                • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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                  19 hours ago

                  You need to internalize the fact that young and leftist votes did not meaningfully impact the election.

                  Because they don’t vote meaningfully, yeah. That’s the point. I dunno where this strawman defector angle comes from.

                  The much bigger issue is the people who aren’t voting at all, or casting a performative 3rd party vote in districts where it accomplishes nothing.