Do y’all actually pronounce dragon with a j sound? How???
English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
“Dragon” /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]
You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)
This explanation makes me feel stupid
Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.
To put it in layman’s terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.
you’ve written tree as “tshree” there.
Many dialects, indeed, pronounce “tree” as something one might perceive as “chree”.
Aw crap, that’s how I pronounce it. Now I can’t unhear it
Hey there now. We aint knowing any of your elvish. Best keep that to yourself, ya understand?
Mae g’ovannen!
Жragon (ZHragon)
I think this is how you’re supposed to say gif
Джragon (dZHragon = jragon)
Gragon
Don’t start the gif/jif wars again.
It’s clearly yif
I’m thinking it’s a regional thing and this guy is from my general region, it’s totally a thing out here. The letter “T” is really only useful on paper, people use “D” when they speak for the most part for “T” (except for T’s followed by an “h”), and “J” is any “D” when followed by an “r”. Side note, i found it jarring when I was younger and saw a Superman cartoon for the first time, and all the characters were pronouncing “Luthor” as “Luthor”, not “Luther”
I sort of roll the bounce of the “d” in “j” into the r
Jereggin for sure
I didn’t think so either till I pronounced it out loud. WTF is going on?
Pretend like you’re french: j’ragon. It’s the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.
eta: if you’re pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I’m really concerned and alarmed.
In most Americans accents I think “Dragon” and “Jragon” would be indistinguishable.
I was so fucking confused until I tried saying it out loud. I’m so startled and impressed
Yeah if I slow down and pronounce it with intention, they’re different. In normal speech though, it’s basically “jragon”
I grew up in the Appalachian and it isn’t the same in my accent.
Absolutely not. Am American, so I’m gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.
The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I’m very confident in that.
I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsues because they’re not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.
Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.
West-coaster here. They’re definitely two completely different pronunciations.
I’m a Midwesterner living on the east coast so that’s entirely possible.
French would be like /ʒragon/ and English would be /dʒragon/
It was more like “french” how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it’s hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don’t commonly have other words that start with those sounds.
Too many jrux
Jrove him to madness.
What a tradedy 😔
*trajedy
*trajeudi
Jaringly, Jave jid jeclare,
jreadfully jaft to jare
To jub ‘jragon’ with ‘J’,
jiminishing its jisplay!
joesn’t jecency in jialogue care?
Hey smack me if you said 'dragon" and " jragon" out loud.
I’m just gonna give you a small flick on the ear since I tried but am physically unable to pronounce “jragon”.
I tried it as well 🤷… sounds almost the same, except the one with the J is a bit more rough when prounouncing the first letter.
Guess you were dropped too 🤷
Actually, I was 😂.
SMACK
How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.
We’d then go to World Standard Time. It’s 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.
I’m with you for the alphabet and human era, but what’s the thing about timezones? We’d still have to keep track of each area’s normal waking/business hours, but it’d be less standardized and harder to remember unless there’s something I’m missing.
Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.
ˈwʊdnt ɪt biː ˈbɛtə ʤʌst tuː juːz aɪ-piː-eɪ fɔːr ɔːl ˈlæŋɡwɪʤɪz ðɛn?
Not really. There’s accents and things that mess that up.
Not really, because of accent differences. The best you could do is account for all phonemes distinguished across standardized varieties, regardless of their phonetic realization. Of course, you couldn’t possibly account for all of them (e.g. distinguishing the Australian /æ/ vs /æː/ would be troublesome for British and American speakers).
Hīr’z æn icsperimentăl sistăm ðæt s̄ūd würc ăcros SSBI (SSBE) ænd DĂ (GAmerican). Æz jū cæn sī, homăfounz ār spelt aidenticăly, wīc fōrmz ārn’t rităn æt ōl, ænd plein vauălz ār dz̄enărăly jūz’d wið ðēr Roumæns saundz.
Strüt-Fut-Gūs-Cjur-Für Cit-Flīs-Nīr-Fir-Hæpy Dres-Feis-Scwēr-Fern Træp-Mauþ-Prais-Baþ-Pām-Stārt Cloþ-Ts̄ois-Löt-Þōt-Nōrþ Cömă-Letăr (tuc ðæt wün from Roumeiniăn)
How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.
Also, drop the whole uppercase and lowercase nonsense. Just pick one!
UPPERCASE IT IS, WE LOUD NOW
THE QUIET UPSETS SLANESH
Not gonna lie, I like the cases if only to make scanning for proper nouns easier. The capital letters stick out. Maybe keep caps only for proper nouns.
I was having this debate a week ago when dealing with those strange proper noun cases like departments in an organization. They’re sorta proper nouns, but then when generalized it goes back lowercase. Security Department vs security escorted them out of the building.
Having cursive, lower, and upper cases is really dumb though.
We could just add a new letter to denote a proper noun? Kick it up to modern relevancy with the @ or #? Lol.
MAYBE DO IT SPANISH STYLE AND SURROUND IT? @JOHN SMITH #JOHN SMITH#
No more having to use shift regularly.
There’s definitely some weirdness in that. I feel like it’s an edge case, though, and could just say to either refer to them as the full Security Department, or capitalize Security as well. Or go the German route and just capitalize all nouns, they’re usually the most important part of a written sentence anyway.
Thinking about it further, there are a few use cases for caps in readability. Abbreviated, for example, so they’re not interpreted as a word. I think the only one I really struggle with WRT capitalization is the arbitrary capitalization of beginning words.
English could never go phonetic because of regional differences
Why would that change anything? Standard English is already the bar which it’s based on. Do you think other phonetic languages like Korean don’t have dialects?
Just because the UK’s ability to speak English is fucked doesn’t mean the written language doesn’t have to be lol.
well Korean does have that issue in some cases, such as 잎 being pronounced 닢. and it is standardized based on Seoul hemegony, while southern dialects speak differently from how it’s written. and then you have jeju dialect (jeju language) which is a whole other beast
man like a billion people over 6 continents speak English. HTF is that gonna happen? Whole thing is crowd sourced as fuck.
That’s a neat way to travel into the future 👍.
13 month calendar pleeeease. Every holiday can be on Friday or Monday.
Imajin Jragons
The spelling of someone who’s breathing in the chemicals
What accent is this? In mine the D is hard and it sounds different
I believe it’s called affrication – changing a stop to a fricative.
T can become “ch”, and d can become a “j” sound.
This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.
Train might sound like Chain, Drain might sound like Jrain.
My favourite is “Tuesday”, where some people add a y before the “oo” sound, and it becomes “Chewsday”. Or “Chewsdi” if they shorten the “day” to “dee”.
The “y” before “oo” can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for “Chyoob” instead of “tube”.
I’ve found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like “tube”, so that comes up less often.
D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.
Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they’re self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say “Dane” and “Drain” (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference…as long as they don’t know that you’re listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure “tr” and “dr” if they try.
TLDR - english accents allow for grotesque changes in phonetics and think it’s ok
I wouldn’t call it grotesque. “t” and “ch” are very similar sounds, phonetically.
I think we’re all okay with language change, unless you’re pronouncing the k in “knife”, the p in pterodactyl, and the gh in “laugh” glottally instead of like an “f”.
The knight’s knife shines in the night. Now with an aussie accent:
the noyt’s noyf shoyns in the noyt
Da naits naif shainz in da nait!
TMI
You don’t want to hear about my hard D? Why not? Is there some reason why I shouldn’t talk about it? Very well, would you like me to show you it?
Great Plains, western and north.
This is a great video explaining the phenomenon
Jragon deez nuts on your face.
jeez nuts.
English language doesn’t have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)
English is a pictographic language with 26 radicals https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pronounce
But it’s really not a fun fact
Exactly! That’s the most appropriate description!
Literal anglo runes work better lol… To the point that we added some to our Latin alphabet (U, J)
giragon
I don’t know why I can actually tell the difference phonetically between “dragon” and “jragon”, maybe I just pronounce things weirdly.
I think it’s because d and j are different letters and are pronounced different.
Maybe the D being aspirated sounds similar to what sound the J makes.
Oh. Yeah I actually never noticed this.
Jk, one of my favorite YouTubers says iChoons just for fun.
I think this is the more relevant one for jragon: https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw?si=fhpyRYsQ8HuJ3YKs
Super interesting stuff.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/F2X1pKEHIYw?si=fhpyRYsQ8HuJ3YKs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/RRs103ETh2Q?si=IxHkZH2MaKLAxj49
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Giraffis
J is often /d3/ in English so yea there’s a D
Джрагон… Cyrillic makes so much more sense, why the heck did we have to get stuck with Latin (+ 2 runes)…?
Oh shit he is right
Shut up and pass the pasghetti.
Not in my accent.
Geesus… You’re write!
*your
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y*ar
In high school, I wrote a play for my creative writing class where I named the main character Jrue—named after Jrue Holiday, one of my favorite basketball players.
I remember the teacher got a kick out of it.
