Modlog: https://sh.itjust.works/modlog/25693?page=1&actionType=All&userId=21053985 , banned by @[email protected]
For context, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, and got into a few arguments.
More context:
It started (to my knowledge) with this comment, goat pinged db0 after he downvoted a comment
a note on the uyghurs (click to show
For the record, I believe that the Uyghurs are mistreated by the CCP, and are experiencing cultural erasure and Human Rights abuses, but there’s a lack of evidence that it’s a genocide specifically (especially since it seems to target the religion, rather than the ethnic group).
Goat banned IndustryStandard, leading to this thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/ leading to goat commenting this:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/21070262
He mentions this:
We constantly encounter bots, spammers, alt accounts, trolls, and doxxers, so I need to be vigilant by regularly checking who’s interfering and from where.
Which I find ironic, since there was some vote manipulation happening, which goat did nothing about (and could be behind), but I’ll get to that later.
After some more arguments, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, saying that letting tankie users engage on dbzer0 comms means other users are tankies:
He said that it’s different for LW (lemmy.world) and SJW (sh.itjust.works, not the other word). He then poster the “Tank Man” picture to [email protected], as he expected us to retaliate (being tankies, according to him). We did not, in fact, retaliate: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21089819
He also posted this in tankiejerk: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52268655, https://sh.itjust.works/comment/20733015.
He also may have done vote manipulation, and at the very least allowed it.
Take, for example, this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21091723
Per lemvotes, it was downvoted by the following users:
The relevant ones here are:
- [email protected],
- [email protected],
- [email protected].
If you look through other comments, they downvoted me and other users near-systemically, while upvoting comments made by goat.
For example, take a look at their (respective) lemvotes profile pages: https://lemvotes.org/user/[email protected] https://lemvotes.org/user/[email protected] https://lemvotes.org/user/[email protected]
They have all downvoted exclusively arguments against goat and others, and were made almost at the same time.
After a bit more arguing (I’m not posting the specific comments because it’s tedious, and they’re easy to see by scrolling through goat’s profile.) goat decided to ban all dbzer0 users from meanwhileongrad, I think this comment marks when he decided to do this, but I may be wrong.
note on the post that comment was in reply to
I think this reply (by unruffled) was taken out of context. Unruffled is absolutely not defending what’s happening to the Uyghurs, they’re saying that a lot of people have a double standard, where they will not hesitate to condemn the Uyghur genocide, but hesitate on the gaza one, especially when the gaza one is more severe and urgent. To quote them directly:
Yes, that’s exactly what I was saying but of course they misrepresented it. You know exactly what Americans are like. They couldn’t give a shit about the uyghurs, except as a way to China bash and feel superior. I also explicitly said later in the comments I agreed it was a genocide. They’re just doin’ the usual bad faith takes.
Feel free to quote me lol
Since this goat had been banned from dbzer0 for being hostile:
https://sh.itjust.works/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=63615
The fact that so many of these are empty and stupid anti-communist smears is fascinating. Vietnam did genocide against South Vietnam, collectivization of farmland in the USSR was genocide against land owning peasants? Really?
Deeply unserious, to the point of actually being genocide denial. Genocide is the crime of crimes. This “cultural genocide” invention actually equivocates the crimes of the worst regimes in history with what are, ultimately, not even crimes. Look at Xinjiang province and compare it to Gaza. It’s fucking night and day.
It was “invented” in the very same book that coined the term genocide. Cultural genocide has been a part of genocide since the very inception of the concept of genocide. I shouldn’t have to explain that multiple things can fit in the same category without being equal. Playing whataboutism games as an excuse to deny ongoing genocides is a supremely bad look.
We’re more than happy (at least those of us on the left) to admit Australia’s “stolen generation” was an act of genocide. I’m not as well-informed about it, but my understanding is that Canada’s “residential school system” has been even more widely recognised as such. The concept of cultural genocide is pretty well established and widely accepted in leftist circles. The only exception to this seems to be tankies trying to deny China’s own examples of it in Tibet and Xinjiang.
The stolen generation, the residential schools, these don’t exist in a vacuum. Canada and Australia ran extermination campaigns to reduce populations before they started taking children. They’re genocidal because they’re part of a broader campaign of genocide, you can’t just divorce them from the broader genocide as a separate crime.
That’s what I mean when I say cultural genocide has always worked alongside ethnic cleansing and mass murder campaigns and extermination. They’re not separate things. Divorcing it from them as it’s own unique crime of “cultural genocide” makes no sense and essentially devalues the power of genocide accusations.
Let’s try a hypothetical then. Without any mass murder or extermination campaigns, if a group forcibly enacted birth control on another group, would that be genocide? How about taking all children of that group and raising them outside of their ethnic background, therefore forcibly erasing their cultural and ethnic identity? How would those differ from other acts that don’t involve direct violence, like starvation campaigns? I agree with you on the point that using the term "cultural genocide"does devalue it though, but I just also personally believe that anything that seeks to erase a cultural, ethnic or other identity is genocide.
“Actually nuh uh, because, you see, I said so”
How profound. Do you have anything of value to say, or are you too belligerent to unconditionally repudiate your wrongness and humble yourself?
The genocide convention doesn’t actually cover this. The threshold for the crime of genocide is high, it is the crime of crimes. “Cultural genocide” in the absence of extermination/mass murder/ethnic cleansing does not meet that threshold.
It’s not just me that says so, the UN says so. The ICJ says so. They don’t call it genocide because it isn’t genocide.
It literally does. There’s a line item specifically about forcibly transferring children, and that was a key element of both the genocides they mentioned.
Can you imagine non-genocidal intent for removing children from their parents? I can.
That’s why one line item isn’t actually enough to call it genocide, without the extermination element and without the intent it doesn’t meet the threshold. Again, there is a reason the UN or ICJ have not called it genocide.
Either you’ve not read the definition and are guessing, or you’re intentionally misrepresenting it. The definition requires any (not all, and not multiple) of several acts, and forcible removal of children is one of them. It also requires an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Both the Canadian and Australian governments have admitted this past intent. They recognise their own past genocides. The UN and ICJ don’t need to issue a report into a genocide that’s already been stopped domestically and is already being punished domestically as they’re international organisations that enforce international law only after the nations concerned have failed to do so themselves.
You’re using the word it as if you’re forgetting we’re in a thread talking about two different genocides, neither of which is against Uyghurs. As China isn’t part of the ICJ, it’s not within their jurisdiction to say whether or not there’s a genocide, and would be just as silly to bring up as if someone said that the British Crown Prosecution Service never charged OJ Simpson with murder and tried to suggest that meant he was definitely innocent. I’m not sure whether it’s as silly as thinking that Canada and Australia are one country, though, which is the other reason you might have said it.
In other words, no, you don’t. I’d ridicule you more but the fact that you’re trying to rules-lawyer a technicality around the definition of genocide has already done it for me.
Take it up with the UN and ICJ, not me. They’re the ones who don’t think it meets the definition.
I guess you’re smarter and more qualified than them though so they should probably listen to you.
Removed by mod