it’s a bad practice to design appliance in such a way to assume that neutral will have low voltage, because in case of neutral failure in three-phase circuit you can get full voltage there,
Who’s using three phase in a setting where these types of plugs are used? In the US, at least, three phase circuits use very different receptacles and plugs.
The fact of the matter is that the switch has to be placed somewhere. And it’s safer to place the switch between the load and the live wire, rather than between the load and the neutral wire. Designing a system where the live and neutral can easily be known makes it easier to do the safer thing.
you don’t have to have three phase circuit to be affected by floating neutral in three-phase substation upstream. in some places in us there are 208v interphase three-phase circuits, which give 120v phase to neutral, which is distributed as a pair of wires as single-phase circuit. this is also normal way to deliver single-phase power in europe, as it’s most efficient use of conductor. (from 400v three-phase circuits) in case more power is needed than single-phase circuit can deliver, three-phase circuit is installed
if there’s switch on device, it’s 2p1t meaning both phase and neutral are switched. if it’s permanent, non-pluggable circuit, like lightning, it’s okay if only phase is switched (neutral is connected permanently)
This is entirely an US problem created by the “center tap” nonsense. Nobody else I’m aware of uses that, let alone with that other. The outlet in question (type F) I’m only aware of being in use with one phase of a there phase supply plus the neutral, or just “the” phase and neutral. Note that in the second case, even if a house or apartment only has one phase wired to it, it’s still generally part of a three phase supply, but the other phases just aren’t wired to that particular place (incredibly rare these days, but might be the case for very old homes/installations).
Now the real reason for it being safe: The neutral is required to be wired to ground at the main breaker panel. With installations newer than 2000-something, every circuit has to be GFCI protected. With even newer installations having even more granular requirements (not sure on the specifics).
in many flats even recently built you don’t get three-phase power, just single phase, but building divides single three-phase supply into three groups of single phase circuits like you say (do you really need 20kW in residential flat? one that doesn’t use EV charger, built in 90s-10s?) i guess it depends on country also. separate houses tend to get three phase connection where i live
floating neutral will also be a problem in american-type two-phase installation, might be even worse (more frequent) on account of large number of lightly maintained transformers used (why on gods green earth there’s few-kV medium voltage line going down every street, americans make it make sense)
Yeah, you’re probably right. I’m in over my head on this discussion.
I am reminded of my first day in an electrical engineering circuit theory class, when the professor made very, very clear that he was teaching us theory and fundamentals, and that the real world of electricity required a lot more safety built into the procedures and designs, because not everything behaves the way the undergrad textbook describes.
Who’s using three phase in a setting where these types of plugs are used? In the US, at least, three phase circuits use very different receptacles and plugs.
The fact of the matter is that the switch has to be placed somewhere. And it’s safer to place the switch between the load and the live wire, rather than between the load and the neutral wire. Designing a system where the live and neutral can easily be known makes it easier to do the safer thing.
you don’t have to have three phase circuit to be affected by floating neutral in three-phase substation upstream. in some places in us there are 208v interphase three-phase circuits, which give 120v phase to neutral, which is distributed as a pair of wires as single-phase circuit. this is also normal way to deliver single-phase power in europe, as it’s most efficient use of conductor. (from 400v three-phase circuits) in case more power is needed than single-phase circuit can deliver, three-phase circuit is installed
if there’s switch on device, it’s 2p1t meaning both phase and neutral are switched. if it’s permanent, non-pluggable circuit, like lightning, it’s okay if only phase is switched (neutral is connected permanently)
This is entirely an US problem created by the “center tap” nonsense. Nobody else I’m aware of uses that, let alone with that other. The outlet in question (type F) I’m only aware of being in use with one phase of a there phase supply plus the neutral, or just “the” phase and neutral. Note that in the second case, even if a house or apartment only has one phase wired to it, it’s still generally part of a three phase supply, but the other phases just aren’t wired to that particular place (incredibly rare these days, but might be the case for very old homes/installations).
Now the real reason for it being safe: The neutral is required to be wired to ground at the main breaker panel. With installations newer than 2000-something, every circuit has to be GFCI protected. With even newer installations having even more granular requirements (not sure on the specifics).
in many flats even recently built you don’t get three-phase power, just single phase, but building divides single three-phase supply into three groups of single phase circuits like you say (do you really need 20kW in residential flat? one that doesn’t use EV charger, built in 90s-10s?) i guess it depends on country also. separate houses tend to get three phase connection where i live
floating neutral will also be a problem in american-type two-phase installation, might be even worse (more frequent) on account of large number of lightly maintained transformers used (why on gods green earth there’s few-kV medium voltage line going down every street, americans make it make sense)
Yeah, you’re probably right. I’m in over my head on this discussion.
I am reminded of my first day in an electrical engineering circuit theory class, when the professor made very, very clear that he was teaching us theory and fundamentals, and that the real world of electricity required a lot more safety built into the procedures and designs, because not everything behaves the way the undergrad textbook describes.
So I’ve learned something new. Thanks.