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X11 users love to cling to broken / abandoned apps.
If your app doesn’t work on Wayland it’s just bad or abandoned at this point.
These “Wayland will never come” articles completely ignore the fact that Wayland is here and has already won.
There are lots of issues with Wayland. They will be fixed, but if this was simply a list of things still needing to be improved, it would be useful.
But most Linux desktop users use Wayland already. It will be 90% in 2-3 years. With the exception of Mint, the big Linux distros already install to Linux by default. So almost every new Linux user starts on Wayland. Few will ever try X11. And if they did, the list of broken and impaired experiences on X11 will bring most back to Wayland.
It really does not matter if every x11 user switches to Wayland. The ecosystem does not need them.
But very few of even the hard core adherents will use an X server 5 years from now. Most normal users will not even use Xwayland. And the simple reason is applications.
Everyday there are more and more apps that are Wayland only. Before 2030, that list will include all GNOME and most GTK apps. Are people really going to give up all these applications because of some obscure advantage they perceive in X11?
Most the the faults the article cites are exaggerated or historical. But it is not worth arguing over the details. Wayland is the future. But it is already the present. It is sad really that the people writing these articles do not realize that they are already in the minority and have already been left behind.
This is a “Linux will never be ready for all UNIX users” article written in 1998. It is both true and irrelevant.
Can you share the contact of your copium dealer?
Because, really, this is one of the most disparagated stuff I’ve ever read this year.
There are lots of issues with Wayland. They will be fixed
Remind me 2030 if these issues I have get fixed:
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8000
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8001
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8002
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8191 I later learned the reason sway is using capabilities is to fix performance issues, which yeah still has several…
One issue the wayland proponents fail to notice is that the ecosystem itself is fragmented, you have several DEs/WM with their own implementations and bugs that will likely never be fixed.
I’m an i3wm user, my only option to switch to is sway, doesn’t matter if some of the issues I have are fixed in kwin or mutter, it has to be fixed in sway.
But most Linux desktop users use Wayland already.
Most desktop users use windows, and they are happy with that, why don’t you stop using linux and move to windows?
Everyday there are more and more apps that are Wayland only. Before 2030, that list will include all GNOME and most GTK apps. Are people really going to give up all these applications because of some obscure advantage they perceive in X11?
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/12to11-git
people writing these articles do not realize that they are already in the minority and have already been left behind.
Doesn’t remove the fact that wayland still sucks 😆
The only thing stopping me from switching is the fact TigerVNC server doesn’t support it, I wouldn’t be able to LAN remote into my workstation.
What do you mean by that? I’m using TigerVNC with wayvnc on sway
I currently use Arch/X11/KDE with TigerVNC, I remember there being issues half a year ago when I last checked it.
Here is an argument that some of the grumpy old men clinging to Xorg may understand.
It is 2003 and all the cool kids are moving to this new web browser called Firefox. But every time you try your favourite websites in it, you find stuff that breaks. So back to trusty old Internet Explorer 6 you go. Call me when it works you say.
Wayland is like HTML. Wayland compositors are web browsers. And yes, all these “modern” web standards are all implemented a little differently or maybe not at all in some browsers. And, annoyingly, a lot of real world websites still work better in Internet Explorer 6 than in any of these supposedly “modern” browsers.
But, as with the web, it will not be long until all websites (Linux desktop applications) will be written to use the modern standards and will work well, and pretty much the same, in all browsers (Wayland compositors).
And, while there will still be websites (Linux desktop apps) that work better in IE6 (Xorg), most people will consider those sites broken and will probably not use them. Alternatively, you can run your browser (compositor) in compatibility mode (Xwayland) for those sites.
You can keep using Internet Explorer if you want. Many people held on for a long time. Just know what your advocacy sounds like to people that have moved on to Firefox and Chrome. Pointing at your corporate website that looks wrong in Firefox will not impress them. And understand that you will not be able to hang on forever. Well, unless you want to be stuck in a tiny corner of the web that still works on your browser. Most websites will stop working on Internet Explorer at some point.
I’m not super informed on Wayland, and this analogy really helped, thanks!
I am a Mint fan, so one of the minority still running X11. As long as I can do what I need to on my PC, though, I am content to wait until the distro maintainers do the upgrade.
I guess using Mint in the first place means I don’t prioritize running all the cutting edge versions of everything, lol.
With all the surface false analogies and general lack of solid knowledge in the comments here, I truly hope that at least half of them are LLM generated.
For me the only issue is that I don’t want to rewrite all my Awesome widgets. KDE has really nice widgets but it still doesn’t have independent virtual desktop per monitor so for me it’s completely incompatible with my workflow. Looks like waybar is most popular but I’m not going to write widgets in C++. AGS looks like it would do what I need but I’m not sure if anyone is actually using it. I could try it but I have 0 issues with Awesome WM so what would be the point of spending months moving everything to Wayland? I will probably do it one day but it simply doesn’t offer me anything right now.
I started linux with wayland and i have no clue why it’s such a controversy lmao.
I started linux with wayland and i have no clue why it’s such a controversy lmao.
I recently ran into an user that rarely used x11. We were testing lsfg-vk, and right now it has a bug that when you close the game it most of the time it hangs and doesn’t quick properly.
The person complained about having to open the terminal to kill the app when it hangs and I had to explain that this is not an issue for me because I use
xkillwhich they never knew was a thing that avoided that whole mess of having to open a terminal to kill a window.But anyways, not a big deal if you can no longer use
xkill, it is a very handy tool that saves a lot of key presses but not a vital thing in the end.The big issue holding me on x11 is that there is no way to merge multiple displays as one, something that on x11 is a very simple
xrandr --setmonitoris impossible on wayland, there is no way to do it.The fact that most new Linux users share your experience is exactly the reality this article fails to perceive. It is a old man who swears his slide rule is faster than your calculator.
The main issue is that some things still refuse to work with Wayland properly, as it requires a rewrite for certain cases due to a different architecture.
Overall, Wayland is superior, but the transition is not complete yet and some things are harder to adapt than others.
Totally fair take.
I want to correct “refuse to work” with “do not work” but it is a completely valid take that some Wayland stewards resist adding certain functionality (especially the GNOME folks).
I will take issue with “requires a rewrite”. Wayland is designed to be extended. It is more that things need to be added than fixed. Almost all the issues are due to security in Wayland. You need explicit support to do things (whereas X11 apps just do them and nobody stops them—even when they should).
And X11 will never be ready for most modern users. They have different goals. But that’s the thing with open source. As long as someone somewhere needs it. Even if 90% of us don’t need X11 for legacy software. It will still be here.
Even if 90% of us don’t need X11 for legacy software. It will still be here.
I most agree with you. The Xlibre project may become popular and do something to make X11 popular again. Who knows?
And I just argued on a forum yesterday that Xorg will keep working for 20 years at least. But a lot of smart people claimed I was wrong about it being able to support new hardware. But I think Xorg is likely to build and run for decades yet.
But the X server implementation that is likely to last the longest is Xwayland. And with Wayback, the “stand-alone” X server that many distros will bundle will be Xwayland running on Wayback (Wayland) and not Xorg.
As I have said elsewhere though, few people will be daily driving an X server (Xorg, Xlibre, or Wayback) simply because many desirable applications will require Wayland.
And what will be the x11 only applications that will make people run an X server to use them? Xeyes? Xfig?
I think even running Xwayland will be pretty niche. X11 is going to be a software preservation project. You can boot up OpenLook, CDE, Trinity, or i3 for the memories (and then go back to Wayland for the apps you need).
I could be wrong. Time will tell. Within a couple of years after the release of GTK5 at the latest, we will know. By 2030 maybe.
They have different goals
I am not sure about that. They have different designs for sure. Mostly because one was designed 25 years later. I guess you mean they have different goals because Xorg did not incorporate some goals in its design (like security). But is it a goal of Xorg to be insecure? That feels like a stretch.
There are design goals in X11 that are not included in Wayland. Take asking the display server to draw primitive shapes for you as an example. But modern X11 apps do not do that either. That is not how things like Qt and GTK work. So, more of a “25 years later” thing than a true difference in goals. The “compositor” approach. The DDX layer. These are more of a reflection of “how things work today” on both systems than they are differences in goals.
Perhaps you mean things like “network transparency” as I hear that one a lot. Wayland’s design is to have a simple core that can be extended. But the same capabilities exist for Wayland. For example:
https://www.mankier.com/1/waypipe
or even better:
https://github.com/wayland-transpositor/wprs
What goal does Xorg have that Wayland does not? Again, other than poor security (not a goal).
The lack of security in Xorg makes many things easier. Wayland apps run in a sandbox which makes some things harder. Many complaints I see ultimately boil down to this difference. Flatpaks are also sandboxed and a lot of the solutions on Wayland are similar (eg. XDG desktop portal). But again, am not sure crap security was really a “goal” of Xorg. It is simply convenient.
Because of security, things have to be explicitly supported on Wayland while X11 apps can just do them. There is no official way to capture a screenshot on X11 even after 40 years. But any X11 app can do it pretty easily as all apps have access to the entire display (even contents of other windows). On Wayland, there is a protocol for screen capture. There has to be, or it would not be possible. The same is true for many other features. And, I fully admit, some protocols for Wayland to do things done by some x11 apps do not exist yet (or are not yet widely supported by compositors or apps).
But again, I do not really see “poor security” as an x11 design goal. It was simply born in an era where that did not matter as much. Projects that want to modernize X11, like Xlibre, will have to break things on X too. Time will tell what that looks like.
X11 is a display server. Wayland is a presentation layer. Different goals. I have run graphical multi-seat systems using x11. Something like that will never be possible in the same way for Wayland because it is out of the design scope
I spent 4 years with and external monitor on my desk that I couldn’t use because it was absolutely painful to find a consistent way to make the 2 different DPIs of the screens work in a way that made sense. Only now with proper Wayland can I enjoy and use it. Yeah there’s hacks, but I’d rather let it be dead in a corner than try to work around it. It was a bunch of black screen, inconsitencies between the order I’d plug the external screen, when i did it (before or after logging in), etc… I can’t even imagine all the other pain points about hdr, variable or high refresh rates, etc.
Wayland is great.
Had to wait a bunch of time and tried many times before and it wasn’t ready for my needs, but now it is and I’m happy. God knows how many rants I’ve done on fedi about it not working for a lot of time on plasma and weird bugs everwhere.
a consistent way to make the 2 different DPIs of the screens work in a way that made sense
What do you mean? I used multidisplay setups for 15 years, I never checked what’s the DPI of my monitors is and never had issues. I just plug in any external monitors I have around and it works. I did it on desktop machines and many different laptops. I’m always baffled when people say their monitors don’t work because of sync rates or DPI. What are they trying to do and what’s not working?
e.g. one monitor is 96dpi, and the other is 192dpi, moving a window from one monitor to the other shouldn’t result in the window becoming a different physical size, and it should render at a natural resolution on both (i.e. scaling it to half size for display on the 96dpi monitor doesn’t count)
Currently, X11 is not really being developed, just maintained, which is the real issue. In this piece they are questioning whether Wayland was a good choice or not. I am using Wayland, have for some time, and I do acknowledge it is still a work in progress, validating the articles list of ‘issues’ yet to be addressed, but unless you are running a really old system, I am guessing the complications affect a very minimal group of users. There are also workarounds, for example on KDE, the gtk apps don’t adhere to those using the global menu. However, there is a fix to get around it.
In reference to using a completely different solution, isn’t it a little late in the game (16 years in development?) I think we are stuck with Wayland, no?
X11 would have needed almost a complete rewrite. Wayland made sense. Eject the technical debt and focus on your use case. We aren’t time sharing on a large central mini computer/mainframe anymore. And even then they generally are full single user systems run in parallel under a hypervisor these days. As wasteful as that might be.
But there’s still occasions when you need to run a legacy application on old AIX, Irix, etc, or vax Hardware. And need a workstation. Which right now Wayland simply can’t do without x.
X11 isn’t gonna disappear, it will always be there as a compatibility layer for old programs. That’s okay.
Oh absolutely. I said as much an earlier post they will coexist even if Wayland will be the default for most distros.
I need it to run like 3 things via its original use case of “log in to remote computer, run it on linux, see it on your local machine”. still works like a charm.
Yep absolutely. It’s been years since I’ve done that myself. But there’s lots of Legacy software out there. Especially on Legacy systems that are not being developed for at all anymore. That will continue to require X11. One of the other more Niche uses which Wayland doesn’t support I believe are multi graphical users on a single system. Again probably something I don’t think I’ve messed around much with in the last decade. But it was a fun feature. Wayland is much more focused on a single session.
The biggest problem is for new users. Once the dust has settled and Wayland is the default for everything (and there’s plenty of searchable threads for how to fix X problem) then it will be great. But currently if you’re a noob and you install a distro you don’t know what either is. If you have this problem do you fix it with X or Y? Choice is great for enthusiasts, but just another hurdle for new users.
We’ll get there. Honestly I think in the long run Wayland will be easier to troubleshoot and maintain. But then that may just be memories of troubleshooting XFree86 back in the 90s. I still have flashbacks.
Most new users won’t even know that there is a choice until they’re presented with it, and most will just stick with the default option anyway. (which most distros have/are switching to wayland)
And X11 will never be ready for most modern users.
Most modern users don’t care either way so long as it works.
X11 works for most users.You completely missed the point being made.
Wayland is what new users start on. And Wayland works for most users. In fact, for these users, it works better than Xorg.
So nobody is going to switch to Xorg. The only people using it will be the few that have not switched to Wayland. And, as the applications go Wayland only, that will become a very short list.
It is mot Wayland that has to prove itself. X11 is not winning the battle for new users, or even old ones.
Wayland is what new users start on.
For most new users, sure, as they’ll tend to use the most well-known distros. Wayland adoption is still not 100% and it very much depends on distro and DE.
And Wayland works for most users. In fact, for these users, it works better than Xorg.
If they never tried X they can’t compare it, can they?
So nobody is going to switch to Xorg.
Only those that need features Wayland doesn’t provide yet. Not most people, no.
You completely missed the point being made.
Did i? Wayland is being touted as the next big thing when in fact it’s not even ready yet. And this is after what? 15 years?
Most users don’t care either way so long as it works.
Most users saw no reason to want to change.Eventually it’ll get there, let’s hope so, but for now it reeks of systemd mentality.
Let’s also hope when it’s finally feature-matched to X that it won’t be a mess like X is.
Respectfully, disagree. A lot of the new modern users are into gaming. Something which Wayland specifically does better. I’m not just speaking from personal experience. Yes you could game under X11 before. But it wasn’t as smooth or without issue. I 100% have seen performance increases and stability increases after switching to Wayland with regards to gaming workloads.
A lot of the new modern users are into gamin
I can’t use wayland for gaming because I do multi-monitor gaming, and something that was a very simple
xrandr --setmonitoris impossible in wayland…I 100% have seen performance increases and stability increases after switching to Wayland with regards to gaming workloads.
All I have seen so far is that I get half the fps I get on citron/eden on sway vs i3wm.
They are also fed up with the wayland bugs and decided to force xcb everywhere, one of the bugs is that the app just crashes on wayland gnome, it does not happen plasma, or sway, or any other place, just gnome.
Wayland support for multi-monitor configurations is better than X11. Whatever performance degradation you claim to experience is also a “you” thing, not a “Wayland” thing. There’s an underlying issue with your setup.
Wayland support for multi-monitor configurations is better than X1
Alright, how do I merge the 3 displays that I have as one then?
https://www.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/108dgwc/combine_monitors_to_single_screen/
Whatever performance degradation you claim to experience is also a “you” thing
It is one of the reasons why Eden disabled wayland by default but sure thing, just a me thing 😆
There’s an underlying issue with your setup.
Yeah, it is called sway.
I don’t even use a login manager, directly login from tty and just launch each respective game, sway is able to use my i3 config directly, the only change in this setup is the window manager.
Also note, this performance issue is not present in BeamNG, it only happens with Eden, citron, etc (all yuzu forks).
Is that specific to Wayland or due to improvements in Vulcan, Lutris and alike?
I’m sure there’s a little column A and a little column b. The recent update to blender with Vulcan was amazing for instance. Though I don’t think under wine / proton Vulcan is the default yet. But one thing I know Wayland absolutely did help with was tearing under a few applications.
Those who don’t care, don’t have anything to say and should not the deciding factor. Why count voices who don’t care?
You do not have to count voices. We are not having an election. But the people that do not care will be running Wayland. So, if we count desktops…
lack of global hotkeys in Wayland, graphics tablet support issues, OBS not supporting embedded browser windows, Japanese and other foreign as well as onscreen keyboard support issues that are somehow worse than on X11, no support for overscanning monitors or multiple mouse cursors, no multi-monitor fullscreen option, regressions with accessibility, inability of applications to set their (previously saved) window position, no real automation alternative for xdotool, lacking BSD support and worse input latency with gaming.
All things that don’t matter to modern users.
The top comment in the linked article pointed out how that chunk of text was less than truthful:
There’s definitely regressions that need to be fixed, but the way it is presented here is just misinformation, mixing things like project-specific bugs and misunderstandings in as Wayland problems.
*BSD is officially supported by Wayland and by several display servers (a better state than for X11 where the *BSD’s had to patch things quite extensively downstream), the graphics tablet thing is a KDE-specific bug, and global hotkeys is available in some display servers through XDG portals (albeit a bit slowly), and using multiple independent mouse cursors is very specifically a Wayland feature (wayland multi-seat). Restoring window state is also supported, it just works differently than X11, and sway at least supports global fullscreen the same way as i3. […]
The other comments pick out the other issues the top comment didn’t go through.
Yes for many it’s not. Lots of those issues, while actual issues. Are niche issues. Issues I’ve personally had brushes with in many cases. As someone who’s used Linux and BSD since the early 90s. I know I’m not the average user these days. And I know X had it’s own similar issues over the years. Still does. For the average person using a single screen who doesn’t steam Etc. Wayland provides a very good experience. All the edge issues will be addressed individually as they were with X.
While I would like to see BSD support as well. Part of that is on the BSD devs and community. Many who are against it. There’s lots of areas BSD is unfortunately falling behind in. But that’s not everyone else’s problem. I would love to be able to run a BSD desktop. But it simply doesn’t have the software or support I look for. And that’s okay
That alt text is just TOO real
I feel like this is just like systemd, those that want to stick to the old ways are very vocal but are a very small minority.
Edit - Sometimes I want to erase spell checks 1’s and 0’s.
I mean, at least systemd is one(-ish) program with one API that everyone can target like xorg. There’s so many different Wayland implementations that it gets rather mind-boggling.
Of course, I don’t hate Wayland - I just currently use XFCE. If XFCE ever switches, I’ll go along with it. If applications end xorg support before XFCe switches(or if XFCE becomes unmaintained), I’ll consider jumping ship to something that uses Wayland.
Yes. When will people realize that there should only be one HTML implementation. There are so many web browsers that it gets rather mind-boggling.
Same argument exactly.
You can use XFCE today by switching out xfwm for labwc (Wayland compositor). It works ok but, if you are an XFCE user, the Xorg version is still a bit more polished. That has nothing to do with Wayland really. Even XFCE will be be Wayland first in a release or two. But all the XFCE apps, the panel, the launcher, etc all work great on Wayland already. You are just waiting for them to finish their own compositor.
True! I guess I don’t mean that many implementations are inherently bad.
I guess the web browser analogy brings up the point that even though there’s many major behavioral differences between Wayland implementations right now that can make life a bit miserable, there’s hope that standardization could improve and make it easier to make sure applications work anywhere. I’m just a little sad a lot of important thinks weren’t standardized from the beginning/
100% a system D like issue. And I get it. People tend to hate change. The old init scripts work okay back in the day. And if you’re familiar with them I can see why you wouldn’t want it to change. But system D really has brought something to the game. It’s so much easier to enable disable services. No having to dig through init scripts trying to find the one you’re looking for which might be called through a script of a script of a script.
And while I hate to see fragmentation between the Linux and BSD space. Part of that is on the BSD space. Reluctance to do anything different than the way it was always done can and will hold you back. Not that BSD has ever been fragment free on its own.
BSD just has 4 (or more?) main distributions (or operating systems, whatever). It is nothing like Linux.
Also I think BSD systems are much more integrated on how they work, because on any Linux distro there are hundreds of different packages that were built by hundreds of different people, and on *BSD all pieces fit together nicely, unless you install 3rd party packages that are entirely optional. (Although you won’t get any desktop environment if you do that, aside from default one on OpenBSD, which is modified X server+Fvwm AFAIK).
More for sure if you include Darwin. Linux and BSD were largely similar for a long time. The divergence only really started the last 15-20 years.
It’s interesting to imagine where BSD would be today without all the litigation on the 90s. Would BSD be where Linux is today? Or would it still be in a similar situation due to it’s reluctance to break with system V traditions.
The big reason I personally dislike Systemd is bloat. It takes me 6 seconds to boot a windows 11 VM, it takes 20+ with Systemd, and it takes 6 seconds with dinit. On real machines I frequently hit 40 seconds with systemd. Now is that enough of a problem that I am going to switch to Windows (ugh) or Chimera/Artix, probably no. I still find it very annoying.
That’s not normal. Unless you’re using an HDD, but then Windows wouldn’t boot that fast.
Check the output of
systemd-analyze blame.I have tried. Nothing worked. I also experience the same slow booting on every machine+systemd, with the same resulting slow boot up. Even friends have mentioned to me the slow boot times compared to Windows.
I boot to login in probably under 5 seconds, so 30+ seconds seems like something is not configured correctly. And every Windows machine I’ve ever interacted with boots slow and updates even slower.
Idk what is wrong but every fresh install on any Systemd distro (Arch, Fedora, Debian, openSUSE) has the same slow boot on every device I have tried. I have never seen a 5 second boot on anything else but dinit.
Oh, and my disk is a modern M.2 SSD for my workstation.
I did a fresh install of fedora in a VM given 4 cores, 16gb ram, and storage on an NVME SSD. Finally I am getting a reasonable boot time of 6.5 seconds. But on bare metal I can’t get anywhere close to that. Firmware alone takes 15 seconds. Either way, now I know that it isn’t a “Systemd problem”, just that only Systemd gives me this problem.
If you actually want to fuss with it you could always try some of the stuff from the Holy Wiki and see if it makes a difference. Sometimes it’s just “gremlins” though.
I ironically had a similar issue with moving to Wayland from X. I did everything I saw documented to make it work and it just either flat out didn’t, or performance was ass. Then I think when I had read about Gnome’s future plans to drop X I figured I needed to give it another go. In the end I’m not sure what made the difference (update/config/etc.), but I’m using Wayland now and performance seems the same/better and all is good. My install is also probably close to a decade old (or more - I have moved it between at least 3 disks) at this point so I also have cruft out the ass lol.
Edit - Got curious and decided to look and this install is dated 2013-02-24, so longer than I thought.
deleted by creator
It doesn’t need to be. The goal is not to recreate and be compatible with X11, otherwise it would defeat the idea to create something new. Wayland is here, because it needs to do things differently. It’s the same as Linux operating systems will never be ready for every Microsoft user. And that’s okay.
Sure, but I don’t think that’s an excuse for things like global hotkeys not working.
I guess that is why global shortcuts were added as an xdg-desktop-portal extension.
Do you use Debian? I find a lot of the biggest Wayland opponents are running software from 3 years ago and have no idea how Wayland works today.
The biggest issue for last ~8 years was that wayland was promoted as “superior” while lacking even most basic functions.
V-Sync control? Nope. Hidpi scaling? Nope. Only in 2024 it got to the point where it’s actually usable and these features were implemented.
Who “promoted” it as superior to X11? Pretty much everyone I watch and read said that Wayland had their problems and they are working on it, but it is the future. There are ideas and concepts that are superior to X11, but it does not mean its fleshed out. I don’t think anyone said that Wayland is superior to X11 in every aspect. Not even the most die hard fan say it. :D
Canonical. They had that brilliant idea of wayland-by-default in 2017.
It was a great clusterfuck of frustration for me and other Ubuntu users
Fedora even switched to Wayland by default in 2016 (at least for the GNOME release). I don’t know what they were thinking. 8 to 9 years before they were already using Wayland… and it still have some “problems”. Can’t imagine what you were going through. :D
But compared to Fedora, Ubuntu only did change temporarily to Wayland right? I mean it was not an LTS version. I installed LTS 18.04 and don’t remember anything like that by default.
It was actually fine (ish)
The basics worked and you could switch back if you wanted to
Fedora 42 even eliminated X11 as an option (I think they’re reversing that stance now, though), which made it unusable on my (now dead) Nvidia laptop with dual monitors. I thought they really jumped the gun on that one.
I ended up jumping to AMD graphics so I wouldn’t have any problems with Wayland, but then discovered there’s a nasty bug that causes frequent system freezes on AMD systems. Thankfully I was on Debian, so I could easily switch back to X11. Things have been stable now, but I just feel like I can’t win with Wayland 😅
Wayland does seem to work well with Intel graphics, at least.
Fedora 42 even eliminated X11 as an option (I think they’re reversing that stance now, though),
This is one of the big problems Wayland and its proponents tended to have and still have in general:
They insist on selling vaporware. Or on doing the Ubuntu thing where they just push dev onto production for the users to become unpaid tester workforce. And then they have the gall to complain that people notice things don’t work.
Curiously enough, I don’t recall pulseaudio (another member of this “nu-linux” / Microsoft™ Linux trend) was like this. Sure, Fedora packaged it horribly, but I don’t recall it having been pushed as a default to prod when it was unusable.
Or I am lucky to not have noticed. Oh well.
I do think there’s a balance to be struck where at some point, a larger swath of people need to use that software even if it’s not 100% ready, as then it creates more ‘pressure’ to actually address those final roadblocks. Wayland did seem to improve at a faster rate since it was introduced by default on some distros.
And at least in the Linux world, we have many options to avoid being on that bleeding edge. I’m pretty happy just sticking with Debian as opposed to getting the new stuff, and while I was annoyed I couldn’t use my preferred DE on Fedora, I’ve learned that Debian is actually pretty slick in its own way, which removed the slight sense of FOMO I once had.
My girlfriend decided to make a switch to Linux, and I installed Fedora 42.
It immediately broke her workflow as one of her work apps (Omnissa Horizon, previously known as VMware Horizon) explicitly refused to work with Wayland, stating it will only work with X11.
Had to switch to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.
Wayland does seem to work well with Intel graphics, at least.
heh https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/13319
tbf this is not fault of wayland but gnome deciding to make GTK4 use vulkan by default on wayland.
Yes, they are reverting back. Fedora users always live on the edge. They are basically (but not quite right) “always” the first accepting a new technology. Not even Archlinux does that. Arch users obviously live on the edge too, but for other reasons. :D
But wasn’t Fedora not going to discontinue X11 support only for GNOME version? I thought other spins are still allowed to support it, but doesn’t matter anymore, because they reverting this idea back. I think. But why didn’t you switch to another distribution, instead buying new hardware, if that was the only problem?
Fedora 42 KDE does not have X11, either.
From what I recall when trying it, I don’t think KDE had X11 as an option either, which is my preferred DE. The other spins did retain X11 though.
My laptop with Nvidia graphics became unstable due to faulty hardware, so I used the opportunity to switch to an AMD desktop to hopefully have longer term reliability. I would’ve stuck with the laptop and just used Linux Mint, had it not failed.
Yeah Ubuntu backed out with the next major release. Probably because of user complaints.
It depends on who you are
I switched in 2020
Well in 120 years, all existing X11 users will be dead and then this stupid argument will finally stop including X11
U mad?
I honestly can’t tell
