by Caitlin Johnstone
Jul 18, 2025
It’s 2025. Israeli soldiers are telling the Israeli press that they’re being ordered to massacre starving civilians trying to obtain food from aid centers. Countless doctors have been telling the world that Israeli snipers are routinely, deliberately shooting children in the head and chest throughout the Gaza Strip. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and all the leading genocide experts and human rights authorities are saying that a genocide is being perpetrated in Gaza. The New York fucking Times just published an op-ed by a Zionist genocide scholar who’s finally admitting that it’s a genocide.
There’s no way to deny what this is anymore. If you still support Israel in the year 2025, it’s not because you don’t believe Israel is committing horrific atrocities. It’s because you believe those horrific atrocities are good, and you want to see more of them.
Supporting Israel at any time was wrong. Israel is an invader.
100% agree.
but want to sprinkle a wee bit of nuance.
Israel had (and still has) a massive propaganda campaign.
given information available, it would be easy for most people to come up with a vague “both sides” issue, or “they are terrorists and Israel is doing what it can to protect civilians from jihadi islamists”… Unless someone tried digging a bit and learn for themselves.
However, after this latest phase of the genocide, everyone has seen dismembered babies, the endless humanitarian nightmares. and it wasn’t hiding anywhere, everyone on practically every social media saw it.
After this genocide, the only way anyone could support Israel, is if they have serious deficiency in some basic human emotions.
Yep. Ignorance is normal, but this genocide has been so blatant, proud, prolonged and prominent in media and institutions (e.g. ICC) that for most people, ignorance is no longer a reasonable excuse.
They are settlers, they NEED to do genocide, the premise of Israel is a “jewish first state”. Its not a country like china or switzerland or nepal.
Even in 850 BCE they were genociding the Canaanites.
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Yes.
Or as I prefer to phrase it, anyone who can look at what Israel is doing in Gaza without feeling horror, pity and revulsion is a monster.
2025? I guess better late than never because no one in their right mind should ever support this violent ethno-nationalist exclusionary apartheid state.
Not gonna lie, I feel like 2025 is way too generous. The only reason so many people are suddenly opposing Israel is because the overturn window has shifted and it is no longer popular to support Israel.
imo i wouldnt say it’s about popularity and more about israel just being unable to really hide what they’re doing anymore. now its at the point where your average apolitical normie is seeing babies get their limbs blown off on their tiktok feed.
they had a lot more plausible deniability before their genocide was being live streamed.
as long as leftists have known about how fucked up israel is, your average truly “apolitical” person only knew the israel propaganda painted about it. now they see thats not true and thats a good thing
‘Normies’ have been seeing babies limbs getting blown off since 2023. They simply chose to ignore it because the public sentiment opposed it. The average person is a literal NPC who will repeat whatever the media tells them even if the video footage gets shoved in front of their eyes. I’ve tried it.
Even now, if you ask them if Israel has a right to exist they will answer yes. Knowing that Israel is comparable with Nazi Germany. They would tell you that Nazi Germany has a right to exist if that is what the media told them.
i think that’s pretty pessimistic towards your average person
with how alienated capitalism keeps us all from our peers, its easy to forget that you and i are also just average people.
we’re half way into 2025. gaza videos didnt really become widespread in people’s feed til about a year ago. thats when apolitical people would have started seeing this so much. the amount of turn around in just that small period of time is a good thing and being pessimistic about it or writing people off as lemmings because they were tricked by propaganda designed specifically to trick people specifically like them isn’t helping anyone. that’s just you projecting your resentment towards people, and im not saying that as an insult. its easy to resent them. dont let your resent control you tho.
The average German was a Nazi. The average person is evil and supports genocide. It’s as simple as that.
its really not as simple as that lol. you’re letting your disdain towards people personally steer your point of view.
your average person had no idea this was happening until recently and once they saw it they said it was bad.
its extremely easy to fall into your line of thinking when you don’t interact with your community and view yourself as an individual against other individuals. thats the framing capitalism has given you but its a false framing.
i can tell you for a fact; i live in a small town in georgia. 3 years ago nobody here knew shit about israel or palestinine. went to a protest recently FULL of support for palestine. people who have passively said positive things about israel to me who didnt know better have now said they had no idea what was happening over there. that they literally didnt even know what “gaza was” until recently
sadly thats where your average person is at.
they are not at “genocide is good”.
they’re at “i heard israel was good”. sadly thats more affective than it should be.
but to just write everybody off as wrong and having these horrible opinions is just anti leftwing tbh. you will never create any sort of left wing anything if this is how you view your fellow worker. not everybody is a leftist and in fact most people think we’re fucking crazy, for the same reason they used to think israel is good. “trusted sources” on tv told them so.
It is that simple. If you want a threat full of Nazi sympathizers from yesterday you are welcome to check this out https://lemmy.ml/post/33323757
this doesn’t really support your point, posters in an explicitly political thread on a very niche social media platform aren’t going to be representative of the average
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there are definitely people like that, but i doubt the average person is like this.
Observe Nazis on Lemmy: https://lemmy.ml/post/33383344
That thread was a tough read.
your average truly “apolitical” person only knew the israel propaganda painted about it.
Or, were informed that it was just ‘a religious war’.
USA and their puppets murdered millions directly and dozens, perhaps hundreds of millions indirectly since WW2. But they also control the biggest propaganda apparatus in history which specialty is manufacturing consent for all those atrocities. The case of current phase of Palestinian genocide is the first example the apparatus failed, and it can be felt since it still hold for all other atrocities perpetrated by US.
Hell, even in this thread in generally left leaning instance we still have people defending and relativising even this genocide and its direct perpetrators.
overton window is idealist bs “marketpalce of ideologies”. Propaganda is only effective if there isnt explict in your face contradictions AND people are doing well materially.
Yes, censorship to the point of creating information bubble is the main method, and it can be really terrifyingly successful even in XXI century, just look at Poland, we are like this because to even hear that the alternatives exist, you need to dig the internet hard. People doing well materially, i don’t think it’s explicitly needed, or at least not in the timelapses counted even in decades. Yet again Poland is an example, 90’s was a disaster of broken capitalist promises but to quell the unrest a traitorous succdems were instrumental.
Or it might have something to do with the fact they are shooting starving unarmed civilians standing in line for bread, shooting starving unarmed civilians with fucking tanks
the overturn window
The what now?
The Overton window describes the range of ideas and policies considered acceptable by the mainstream population at a given time.
Basically “things you are allowed to say without people thinking you are weird.”
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Resistance fighters do not have the same ambitions as Europeans (and traitorous dogs for Europe) pretending to be something they’re not whom are actively desecrating land of, genociding and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
Their goal is to reclaim land that rightfully belongs to them. If that has to happen with armed struggle, so be it, that’s also well within their right.
Comparing European settler-colonizers, that desecrate indigenous land with their European nude beaches and cultural powerhouses like mosques or synagogues or churches into European clubhouses, to the people that own the land, that suffer and sustain unheard, unspeakable and untold monstrous crimes and have done so for at least a hundred years, is the most ghoulish, most disgusting, most vile and psychotic thing ever to do, psycholib.
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The binary nature of social media. It made everyone forget the whole region is quagmire.
You’re acting as if that’s the natural state of things, rather than the direct ambition of the imperial powers.
100% this. it’s a pill many people still don’t want to swallow. how you could deny there’s a genocide and Israel is a bad actor is beyond me. there’s literal children who know better
Not after the IDF gets to them…
Israel government is especially bad but i would like to extend this to pretty much any government around the world. The genocide in gaza is possible only thanks to the support and aid of other states.
If you’re still supporting your government in 2025, there’s something wrong with you as a person, you are most likely too selfish and don’t care much about others.
No, no. This is on Israel and the USA. The states fighting the genocide are treated as pariah states by the USA, committing acts of war against them (Iran, Yemen, Syria). Other countries have full hands against the most moronic idea of a president of the USA ever, whether in reality or in fiction, trying to protect their people. At some extent European countries should be ashamed too of their role in this, but honestly, they are just vassals of the USA which is ultimately the only one who can stop this without risking a war against a superpower.
No. European countries and complicit Arab countries do not get a pass. The only government you should support are those that go directly against the genocide such as Yemen, Iran, Hezbollah.
Hell, I’ve been a huge China simp for years, but even Chinas “neutrality”, even while leaning towards support for Iran, tows the line for me. European countries aren’t even neutral.
“We have to support a genocide because…cheeto?” Isn’t an excuse, especially when they supported the genocide the same way under Biden.
I think the USA is finally loosing strength and change is coming, but still no one wants to mess with them. The two or three countries that may have a chance against them, are not fond of this idea. No one real is willing to stop Israel right now, because it is in fact a protectorate of the USA, but that doesn’t mean they support the genocide. Time is a luxury as well as a necessity right now.
The only government you should support are those that go directly against the genocide such as Yemen, Iran, Hezbollah.
Can we simply agree that there’s no good government out there? You don’t have to support one of them, support the people.
Yemen has been tirelessly fighting the genocide the whole time, even though it got them bombed by the satanic West.
Fuck you for denigrating them in the context of the Palestinian genocide, who do you think you are?
Why do you insist in wanting to support a government? You don’t have to, you can fight for something even without supporting any government or waving any flag. We are not in a football match.
I honestly don’t know much about Yemen but given the quality of governments in the area i believe you could upset someone much more for defending Yemen government than for calling out any government in the world for being corrupted and evil. Iran government is a better example, they are fighting against israel but that doesn’t make them any less shit, they care about gaza and the genocide because it’s their “side” not because they are up to good.
You haven’t been following the genocide closely because you don’t really care about it. Otherwise you’d know that Yemen, despite being small and poor and isolated, has consistently blockaded the zionist entity throughout the genocide and has shut down their Red Sea trade routes completely, refusing to reopen them unless the genocide ends.
Nobody else comes close to having helped the Palestinians as much and as consistently as Yemen. This is important.
I’d trade a million of you for one more Yemeni anti-ship armament.
You talk about Yemen as if it was a football team, i encourage you to learn more about the country and the current situation.
Get that anarchist bs outta here lmao
Go ahead and point out any government in the world that is up to good and doesn’t treat its people like shit, also explain why supporting the people over a government is bullshit.
Fuck that idealistic bs. People are out there fighting a genocidal state while you’re masturbating in front of a mirror thinking of yourself as the good guy
Pointing out that we should support people and not governments taking advantage of a genocide is bullshit? To me It sound like you are trying to project some bullshit here, what exactly do you want?
I am going to horizontally expand in your ass
We are in a thread about a genocide, you should try to be more serious.
I could have said the same to you.
Please go ahead and highlight any comments that are out of place.
Says the person with the deeply facetious ideology
Do you consider arguing we should not support the governments of Iran or Yemen “deeply facetious ideology”? I’m not sure what it means but to me it sound like you are on some deeply facetious ideology yourself.
Other countries have full hands against the most moronic idea of a president of the USA ever, whether in reality or in fiction, trying to protect their people.
Funny how that translates to the same exact pro-genocide stance they had under Biden.
At some extent European countries should be ashamed too of their role in this, but honestly, they are just vassals of the USA
So they’re just following orders?
I know the genocide can be stopped by the USA, any other country may or may not.
They certainly can stop supporting it
Sure they can. It’s not like the USA gives two fucks, anyway, like they have been doing for decades against Cuba, always supported by their little racist experiment.
Cuba is less important to the empire than Israel is. Otherwise the us would have invaded it ten times by now.
They cannot because they are not designed to. Euro countries can only stop supporting israel once the americans remoce their military bases, their think tanks, their NSA information centers, their digital control over european finance (yes the big three digital giants basically have full acess to the entire european economy).
Special mention for the UK and germany, who are straight up making bank off this
Yes, 100%. People supporting genocidal maniacs have no ethics whatsoever.
Westerners need to realize that this also extents to the countries that support Israel. If you still support the USA, or the UK, or Germany, there is as much something wrong with you as a person as any Israel supporter.
Lol you think the West has just become the baddies?
Is it still auntiesemitic to say death to israel now
There are millions of people who live in Israel who aren’t on board with their government’s slaughter of innocents. We should be talking about stopping them, sanctioning them even. But calling for death is no better than the people egging on their genocidal policies towards Palestinians.
So, yes. It is 100% antisemitic to say “death to Israel”. It’s not antisemitic to say, “we must stop Israel and restore peace”.
They’re not calling for more human deaths, they’re calling for the death of the STATE of Israel. If a government is perpetuating genocide it is certainly reasonable to wish for the dismantling of that government entity.
I mean sure, but they always had the option of using language that doesn’t contain that ambiguity.
Fuck your language, they’ve been slaughtering babies for two years. Death to the genocidal state, death to the IDF, death to apartheid. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
And you “always had the option” of being culturally sensitive @skisnow
I gather that “death to” comes about in translation to English from Arabic/Islamic cultures.A state or organisation is not alive. It can’t “die”. The “death” therefore must be figurative. “Death to America” is not the same as “Death to Americans”, for example. “Death to Israel” and “Death to the IDF” are not calls to harm a living being.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/are-israelis-jews-returning-to-jewish-minority-life/
@pete_link
@AlHouthi4President
@buddascrayon
@gallopingsnail
@[email protected]
@[email protected]#CrimesAgainstHumanity
#genocide
#Palestine
#Israel
#Gaza
“Death to America” is not the same as “Death to Americans”, for example
And it’s a terrible example, because it also has been used before now by supporters of terrorist attacks on US civilians.
If you’re determined to take offence @skisnow then I guess nobody can stop you.
I’m not taking offense, I’m just saying that if you use inflammatory phrasing you can’t turn around and surprised pikachu face when some people take it the “wrong” way.
LOL
“Peace”
77 years of “peaceful” extermination displacement and genocide
You’re not wrong, regardless of what ultimately happens the Palestinian people need to be protected but I stand by my initial statement.
‘millions’ is BS
The protesters just are against Netanyahu for internal selfish reasons.
They don’t give a fuck about Palestinians.
Like the rat Sanders always talking specifically about ‘the Netanyahu government’ as the culprit.
Creating the ilusion that after he’s gone it will be a democracy again to be supported while they always have been murderous scum.And “death to Israel” is not antisemitic.
The illegal state shouldn’t exist, so it should definitely die.
Conflating shitrael with all jews is OC the tired and obvious cheap hasbara trick. Nice try tho.DEATH TO ISRAEL!!
Since when is Israel an ethnic group? What’s antisemitic is implying the evils of Israel are racial traits. When I wish death on Israel, that doesn’t mean the people with Israeli citizenship should be killed. It means Israel should be killed. They should lose that citizenship, because the state should stop existing. The people should continue existing, as Palestinians or, because a lot of them are white-supremacists with dual citizenships, they can chose to go to their second countries.
If that ever happens watch millions of israeli leaving. Because in the end they cant live as equals. Similar to Algeria or Libya they will remove themselves from the colony.
There are millions of people who live in Israel who aren’t on board with their government’s slaughter of innocents
Nah the vaaaaaast majoirty of settlers are on board, hell even some of the denationalized palestinian residents of israel are. No millions but thousands at best.
Millions of people? Where in Israel?. Death to Israel!!!
Don’t make these sweeping generalizations!
Just because I don’t support Israel doesn’t mean there isn’t something wrong with me as a person! /s
I mean, there’s definitely something wrong with me as a person. But it’s not because I don’t support Israel!
war crime charges, when please?
I think Netanyahu is wanted by the International Court?
He is, but the western nations have collectively decided they won’t enforce the warrant
Maybe I’ve heard France say they won’t enforce, but the Norwegian Department has said they follow the International Criminal Court and will arrest him.
I don’t think they can. It would mean raiding the enemy country and starting a war with someone who has no qualms exterminating civilians.
No, it would literally just mean stopping him at the airport as he passes through.
The man travels internationally regularly. Since the arrest warrant, he’s been careful to avoid travel via counties that will arrest him.
No, I mean they’ll let him come to their country and won’t arrest him
one can hope they capture him, in that case.
Silly you, those are only enforced against enemies of the US.
Well, they exist. TBF, the USA also has a president with a pending conviction or something seemingly irrelevant like justice.
Good start, but I want Biden 's lying genociding arse sharing a cell with cheeto.
Yeah just make them work for gilfcam
-See Caitlin Johnstone
-Read
What 2025?
This monstrosity should’ve never been created.“oh so now being jewish means there’s something wrong with me? antisemitism!!!”
At this point, I’m willing to just tell them “Yes, antisemitism” and stare them down
Netanyahu must be stopped. And Israel supporters too. Maybe the UK should take all Israelis people and give back the land tho its rightful owners… free Palestine!
