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I’d rather have a politician who does absolutely nothing than a fascist.
Yes, this is how the two-pronged strategy works to ensure the working class never improves its standing.
Fascism only improves the standing of those on top.
That’s what they said. You get given a choice between “drag things farther to the right” and “do nothing”, with a system designed to always collapse into two functional parties, knowing you’re too terrified of “drag things farther to the right” to meaningfully challenge “do nothing.”
It’s like a political ratchet.
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But unfortunately not one that my fellow Americans seem to have appreciated.
They’re not political, they just wantt to see common sense policies on immigration (for brown people) and crime (for brown people).
Which is a shame because immigration can be one of the greatest boons to rural America.
Here “common sense” means incredibly harsh.
Ah yes, the classical “you’re either with us or against us”
This is false.
I feel like most people here are american, which would explain this point of view
Eh it happens here in the UK too, ‘centre’ always seems to be ‘give the right wing half of what they want and the left wing nothing.’ which is really just right wing but slower.
I’ll grant you that this is very much an American sentiment currently, but it’s not exactly a purely tribal take when the centrist opinion is that sometimes Nazis can have good ideas.
I mean, a broken clock is right twice a day. If hitler was the first to implement a hand washing before and after patient interaction policy, would that be a bad idea? Or would it be a rare good idea from a genocidal maniac?
Or to pick more immediately pertinent examples, RFK is a an idiot, but he supports banning some food additives that are already banned elsewhere for good reasons, Trump is an idiot, but he wants to end daylight savings time. Both are good ideas, despite support from terrible people and being supported by those terrible people doesn’t make them suddenly terrible ideas.
No.
This is just the case on (yes American, make your own sites that would be nice) every intended forum.
Shit even my in laws say they are centrist, they don’t hold a single view that’s centrist. They vote down ticket republican their whole lives. This is a thing republicans do.
Shit even my in laws say they are centrist, they don’t hold a single view that’s centrist. They vote down ticket republican their whole lives. This is a thing republicans do.
I voted a mixed ticket until 2016. Then straight blue until 2024, and only one exception in 2024 and she was was a city seat that I knew and could knock on her door and yell at in person if she did something I didn’t like.
As a centrist, I approve with this message. An actual centrist does not compromise with nazis.
Do they compromise with the controlled opposition to Nazis?
them: “both sides bad” me: “republicans are bad indeed” them: 😠
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Dang, I wish I could’ve seen what this comment says instead of having someone else decide for me.
Every god damn time
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Dang, lots of censorship going on here.
When are we going to make communities that take moderation seriously and don’t just ban people because they feel like it?
Funny how there’s a bunch of people in the comments essentially just unironically repeating the meme: “Well this must be wrong because I believe this and I’m actually a centrist!!!”
That’s the point, buddy. You’re the butt of the joke. The idea that the far-left and far-right are equally bad or warrant the same amount of scrutiny and criticism is a right-wing belief.
To make the point more obvious instead of using “left” and “right” look at specific political beliefs that the far-left and far-right have:
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Equality across social and demographic groups vs. State-enforced racism, sexism and other kinds of bigotry
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Abolishment of bourgeois property and money vs. Complete privatization, oligarchy and corruption
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Globalization, peaceful relations and a right to live where you want vs. Complete isolationism and xenophobia
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Right to self-governance and no government with a monopoly on violence vs. State sanctioned violence against those considered undesirable or traitors
Hopefully I don’t need to explain which one is obviously worse. To equate what the far-left and the far-right advocate for one must misrepresent the left, so both-sides-ism inherently has a right-wing slant.
the left general public: let’s alienate the people that might agree with us, but be shocked when the right wins.
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Left : “Stop bombing civilians”
Centrists : “Let’s meet in the middle and bomb only some of the civilians.”
But common sense hur dur
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What does right wing mean to you?
What does right wing mean to YOU?
Anyone who thinks any different than they do.
They are both bad in their own ways just one is the lesser of two evils.
But to me both sides suck
Don’t let the downvotes change your mind. Lemmy is clearly leftist and you must not be brainwashed into changing your political beliefs to follow the mass. Keep your critical thinking!
I won’t letting it change my beliefs. I love when people downvote instead of having a conversation they just do that. If I’m wrong with my belief I’ll admit it but you can’t learn without actually talking.
And wait till they find out I’m a democrat
True
In what world is, “Equality across social and demographic groups” seen as evil?
Pretty bold of you to assume I’m considering that evil
You said as much when you said communism is the lesser of two evils, “Equality across social and demographic groups” being it’s core tenet
Lmaoooo but I wasn’t referring to that 😂😂😂
Ok, maybe i misunderstood you then
In the world where tankies are pretty much the only thing you see when you see people talking about far-left/communism, and where past examples of far-left countries aren’t really good for people (imo)
Communism and far-left is more than just “Equality across social and demographic groups”. It’s not as simple as a finger snap and everyone is equal. It often comes with important costs. Some people value more their freedom for example.
The road towards communism has been far more beneficial and prosperous than the capitalist road we’re currently treading. You claim that equality comes with important costs, but i will argue that the benefits far outweigh the “costs”, and wouldn’t be so much different than the current costs of maintaining the status quo.
Agree to disagree then 🤝
🤝
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I like to come into these comments because it gives me a fresh batch of new “centralists” to tag.
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Both sides exclude me for holding my particular set of opinions. I’m on my side, fuck you!
That’s actually fair. Maybe more parties would be better?
Finally some common sense.
What beliefs would exclude you from both sides?? I feel like you’re making this up just to seem “different” tbh
In America that’s dead easy. Try being pro-choice, an LGBT ally, for personal liberty, anti-corporate, pro-gun, and pro-environmentalism. You can salt and pepper that with whatever other opinions you choose.
Ain’t nobody in power catering to you. The Democrats are all kissing the asses of megacorporations and are anti-gun-ownership, because they’re all little tin pot authoritarians just like most professional politicians, and don’t want anyone being able to challenge their authority. And they’ve been demonstrably strongly against personal liberty in general since forever. Meanwhile the Republicans are simply insane, and I don’t think I need to delve into detail there considering the rest of the content in this thread.
So who does that leave anybody with?
The notion is, hold your nose and vote for the Democrats because they’ll screw you over more slowly. And by and large that’s what we do, because there is no other viable option.
Yea, make your own opinions, and fuck everyone who criticizes a political category
Seems like the left don’t approve of common sense.
Not anymore, no.
Both parties are banking on the hysteria of their constituencies to stay in power.
It works.
It’s common sense from an outsider perspective that any organization that expects children to pledge allegiance to it 3000 times before adulthood is loaded with propaganda and the kids that graduate from that aren’t going to have proper common sense.
And just because other countries aren’t as obviously villainous about it doesn’t make their standardized textbooks and their corporate media (much of it imported from the propaganda empire above) that much less propagandistic.
So it’s common sense that common sense is tainted by decades of propaganda, and actually understanding something means unlearning what they taught you and looking with fresher eyes.
So you’re right, common sense is for chumps, and that’s just common sense.
Seems like the right is retarded.
It’s not the 80s anymore. The correct term is that they are Ignorant, racist, bigots.
Yeah and it’s always the others who are toxic and populist, right?
I may be toxic and populist, depending on who you ask, but I’m not a right-winger hiding behind a thin curtain of ‘centrism’.
If libs take the stance that you’re either fully on my team or you’re my enemy then it’s going to be a long time until you win some elections and have the ability to make real policy. Democracy is about compromise and appealing to as many voters as possible. Truth is whomever gets the independents wins the elections in the USA, everything else is just noise and excuses.
This would be all very well and good in principle, except that this assumption has now already been factored into mainstream Republican strategy. It’s now an everyday occurrence for them to say something absolutely outrageous based on the expectation that the “compromise” will be struck exactly where they want things to be.
Social centrism ≠ traditional centrism
They aren’t that either.
This is some crazy doublethink shit. It’s clear just looking at the inconsistent interpretation from all the top-level comments that ‘centrist’ is a blanket term that both describes ‘centrist’ positions and also ‘left/right radicals’. The only consistent is whether the subject is subjecting the in-group to criticism
The same user constantly harps on ‘far-left’ progressives complaining about democratic positions, and calls himself a centrist.
This is just standard ‘out-group’ gatekeeping. “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” shit.
“Bothsides types are indistinguishable both in form and in end-result, regardless of whether they claim to be centrists or leftists”
“This is crazy doublethink shit!”
The same user constantly harps on ‘far-left’ progressives complaining about democratic positions, and calls himself a centrist.
what
Wait, are you talking about both sides as in the political parties, or both sides as in far left and ‘centrist’ secret nazi?
Still sick of this blaming apathetic voters for the clear failure of the Democratic Party. You had mentioned that harm mitigation trumps all moral consideration of choice. That’s short term thinking, one that has gotten us in this mess. If democrats want to play chicken putting ‘their’ progressive voting base against their neoconservative principles, that is a failure on them. Their actions after losing further prove their deficit. I warned you specifically during the election what the outcome would be because of how the democrats acted.
Still sick of this blaming apathetic voters for the clear failure of the Democratic Party.
Bruh, a third of the country sat at home and did nothing as fascism, openly stated, ran to claim all levers of power in the government. If you think voter apathy isn’t a serious contribution in this issue, I don’t know what the fuck to tell you.
You had mentioned that harm mitigation trumps all moral consideration of choice. That’s short term thinking, one that has gotten us in this mess.
Sorry, am I suppose to prioritize the feelies of people who abstained over the millions of marginalized people who are going to die because of this administration?
Sorry our lives aren’t pure enough to be worth your fucking vote.
If democrats want to play chicken putting ‘their’ progressive voting base against their neoconservative principles, that is a failure on them.
This was the most left-leaning Dem platform in fucking decades.
But hey, anything to avoid responsibility for voters ushering in fascism, right?
You mean the Democratic Party sat around and assumed they could further their own power grab because the American people had no choice but to vote for them. You mean the Democratic Party is currently sitting around doing nothing… wait, no—they are actively censuring their members who are talking truth to power. That’s much worse than if they did nothing at all.
If you’re going to blame someone, blame the ones responsible for fascism. Then blame the ones who gambled our future to further the agenda of their donors. The party knew they abandoned their progressive voter base. They miscalculated, and now they’ve doubled down. Fuck. Them.
I explicitly told you that the Democratic Party pushing neocon policies and pushing “vote blue no matter who” WOULD CAUSE VOTER APATHY. Voter apathy is a symptom, of direct democrat action. I told you I would vote for Harris—UNDER EXTREME DURESS.
What do you mean “the most left-leaning Dem platform in fucking decades”?
Fucking Bernie Sanders ran in 2016. Harris, against all reason and hope, stated directly that she would not change Democratic policy—the same policy that has ratcheted us to the right for decades. Biden, in his time as president, failed to achieve anything when he specifically had the windows to do it. So no. That is an outright lie.
absofuckinglutely.
Well you’re just wrong about most of this
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We voted, alright. it’s called a vote of no confidence.
Bothsides types are indistinguishable
… Yea, see there it is. “Bothsides types are indistinguishable [in the way they criticize my party]”
[in the way they criticize my party]
What
Don’t be dense. Define ‘bothsides type’ that includes all subsets of the group you’re talking about. I’d bet pretty penny it isn’t limited to people who use the phrase ‘both sides are exactly the same’.
I’m gonna guess this is pretty close: ‘someone who criticizes the democrats without clearly signaling their electoral support of them’
Or, put another way:
[in the way they criticize my party]
Don’t be dense. Define ‘bothsides type’ that includes all subsets of the group you’re talking about. I’d bet pretty penny it isn’t limited to people who use the phrase ‘both sides are exactly the same’.
Those who present of all major sides of an issue to be indistinguishable because they are both flawed, with the implicit or explicit exhortation to support neither, when there are obvious and important differences between the two with one being unambiguously preferable.
I’m gonna guess this is pretty close: ‘someone who criticizes the democrats without clearly signaling their electoral support of them’
I mean, harm reduction is not morally optional, but criticizing the Dems without signaling electoral support is not inherently a “BOTHSIDES” reaction, excepting, say, in the immediate lead-up to an election of unusual importance wherein the only realistic options are fascism or the Dems.
When there is an immediate crisis coming up, wherein messaging is extremely important, and you choose to amplify messages that help fascists without bothering to amplify messages that damage fascists, it’s difficult to see that as anything except service to fascism.
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the “obvious and important differences” are obvious and important to you because you drink the left’s koolaid while the right drinks your milkshake.
the reality is that the Democratic party exhausts it’s voters’ emotional reserves, and consequently is ineffectual at winning hearts and minds, Then they blame the public for apathy.
That is a strategy that is basically guaranteed to put fascism in power. Who knew?
The centrists knew. And when we tried to engage you in conversation about it, you ridiculed and attempted to maneuver with rhetoric, instead of truly engaging.
the funny thing about this is - or sad, maybe, I’m not sure which - is that centrists often have the emotional wherewithal to handle extreme situations. We’ve been dealing with extremes all of our lives. We see how they feed into each other because we actually grapple with the things others would rather blame other people for. We see that what the left is doing is ineffectual. We see that what the right is doing is vile. We act on it - actually take action, not protest - in the ways we can, in our own lives.
So… …if the right wins, and it really goes poorly, it’ll be a fucking shit time for all of us. But it’ll be beyond that - it’ll be hell for you who have ridiculed others instead of growing, because not only will you have to face the physical reality, you’ll have to face the psychological and emotional realities you always refused to, in the middle of everything else going to shit.
Grow, or suffer. Grow, or repeat. That is the law you are bound by, and yet you don’t make a rational choice.
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you drink the left’s koolaid while the right drinks your milkshake.
Who knew?
The centrists knew.… What the fuck? Is this that ‘anti-woke’ bullshit I keep seeing spewed on late-night talkshows? There’s nobody left in the fucking center. I only partially agree with you - democrats think it sufficient to pound the drums of ranbow-capitalism, when it’s the capitalism part that voters are actually livid about. Apathy doesn’t happen when their ‘emotional reserves’ are run dry or whateverthefuck, it happens when they give up on the democratic party for making actual substantive changes. You think anyone gives a fuck about infrastructure spending when billionaires are running rampant, buying public platforms to manipulate public attention and building toy rockets so they can make-pretend that their astronauts? Fuck no. The fact that they instead spend their media time scaremongering about social issues is secondary to the fact that they’re doing that while the country becomes a playground for the egos of oligarchs. Yes, trans rights are under attack and we should protect them, but that’s not a substitute for addressing the systemic changes that are making everyone miserable.
We see that what the left is doing is ineffectual. We see that what the right is doing is vile. We act on it - actually take action, not protest - in the ways we can, in our own lives.
Lmao is this a parody? Take action in your own life… How? by mowing your fucking lawn? Imagine if the civil rights movement didn’t bother protesting and instead dedicated their time toward… what, emigrating out of their homes in the south? Boycotting the segregated cafes they weren’t allowed into? “Protesting is lame” says the centrist that definitely isn’t over-privileged prick
But it’ll be beyond that - it’ll be hell for you who have ridiculed others instead of growing
Grow into what?? What even is the centrist vision for the democrats? More child tax credits and free vaccination programs? That’s your big vision to defeat fascism? GTFO lmao
When there is an immediate crisis coming up, wherein messaging is extremely important, and you choose to amplify messages that help fascists without bothering to amplify messages that damage fascists, it’s difficult to see that as anything except service to fascism.
“If you’re not with us, you’re against us”
Democrats wanted everyone to shut up about how much was wrong that needed fixing so that they could win, and leftists wanted democrats to acknowledge how much was wrong that needed fixing so that they could win.
Throwing the leftists in with the right-wingers assumes that the rest of the country wasn’t already feeling the pain the democrats were trying to suppress.
Those who present of all major sides of an issue to be indistinguishable because they are both flawed, with the implicit or explicit exhortation to support neither, when there are obvious and important differences between the two with one being unambiguously preferable.
Lmao, here’s what this reads like:
A person who complicates a binary political choice at politically inexpedient moment by pointing out a flaw present in both binaries
No wonder American politics has regressed into pure symbols and signs.
“If you’re not with us, you’re against us”
That is literally what a FPTP election results in, yes. I see this is still taking time to sink in.
The problem is those “Centrists” are the mainstream Democratic party. There is no left-wing in national politics. The left has no one to vote for.
Representative democracy is a lie, but if they let you vote you can still use that vote to help choose your adversary. Better a genocidal ‘centrist’ than a genocidal fascist, at least until the left is strong enough that they could take the right in a fight credibly enough for the ‘centrists’ to pick the left.
Better a genocidal ‘centrist’ than a genocidal fascist
This idea is exactly why no real leftists voted for Democrats recently. If they’re both genocidal, IDGAF about the rest of their label. There are no genocidal centrists. Genocide is always a fascistic action. Getting rid of “the other”. Democrats, by supporting genocide, declared themselves as right-wingers and extremists.
Same. There are some views that should disqualify one from holding public office, and supporting genocide is one of them.
While you are correct, voting for democrats is not because we love them and love everything they do. We vote democrat because we need to keep the batshit insane far right out of power.
If we don’t or if we vote far right, a lot MORE people will suffer and die. That does not mean we agree or like or approve that people suffer and die under democrat rule.
Under biden people were deported and put in camps. But under trump they are put in concentration camps in a foreign country where they will most likely not leave alive.
Either we get shot in the leg (democrats) and we fight and do everything we can to help others. or we get shot in the head (republican/far right) and we can’t do anything to help others because we are either dead or in a concentration camp in el salvador.
Nah, no one is going to convince me the Dems care about the rights of women while they support Israel starving and dropping bombs on unarmed women and children. Don’t tell me they care about the rights of people of color, but just not the ones they are spending billions of dollars to mass murder in Palestine. There are no such things as halfway fascists. You either support genocide or you don’t, and the Dems support it, just like the MAGAs do. They only care about the rights of their corporate overlords like Musk and Bill Gates. The USA has been funding concentration camps overseas for decades. All of Palestine is a concentration camp and everything happening there is because of the USA funding it and preventing the UN from sanctioning Israel. Both parties are in lockstep for this.
Did you not read what i said? I literally explained they are shit and don’t give a fuck… fucking hell…
Wise take. We live in this world, we have to make the better choice, even if it’s still a bad one. Maybe later you can move from genocidal ‘centrist’ to a non genocidal one, but this is a full on accelerated descent into amorality, hatred and love of ignorance for the US.
Yeah but you hate democracy if you say that!
