I keep seeing posts mentioning this phenomenon more and more often.
For instance:
‘Andrew Tate phenomena’ surges in schools - with boys refusing to talk to female teacher
Like, why? Why now? Why even? I really wish I had a time machine where I could go to the future and ask them what the general reasons were for this social development. But I feel like I’m looking for the specific thorn on a cactus that popped my balloon.
Because people in the far left attack masculinity as toxic. This is blowback.
Can you expand on what you mean?
The last decade has seen many people openly criticize masculinity like it’s some form of toxic waste. This is what they grew up hearing. That there’s something wrong with being manly or a man. When somebody like Tate comes along and tells them it’s okay they gravitate to it to make them feel less worthless. Btw why do we never hear about toxic femininity? 😉
I don’t agree. I think what was originally dubbed masculine, was thinly veiled stoicism. It was a philosophical approach to how one should live a good life. It was be a hard, strong, quiet man that takes it all on the chin because you know that your work will come back and benefit you in the long run. Masculinity was akin to boomer-isms of “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps,” or “work hard and you’ll be rewarded.”
But through the lack of social economic reforms over the last half century, there is a profound disconnect between hard work and wealth. Wealth generated passively from capital has surged, while earnings from actual hard work has dried up. Young men are not so stupid that they don’t see this. So what happens when someone swoops in with seemingly a massive fortune, that is selling a new version of masculinity? He’s selling a new philosophical approach to the dire economic hardship of today, and it’s basically one of the gangster. The same people that idolized Al Pacino in Scarface, now, instead, worship online toxic figures selling similarly thought out get-rich quick schemes.
His philosophy could be surmised into “Use everyone around you in order to accumulate wealth.”
It’s really just a terrible philosophy that destroys lives, but within it, he offers the same snake-oil that most religions do, “it’s not your fault.” Which is the barb that sticks in people. “It’s not your fault, it’s XYZ (whether that’s the woke or women or immigrants or whatever, it doesn’t matter who they blame, so long as they blame someone else for your problems).”
So, instead of focusing on figures of true positive masculinity (Steve Irwin, Mr. Rogers, Arnold Schwarzenegger), they flock to the simpler, easier answer. They can imagine how to use people, how to sell drugs or prostitute women, because they see it depicted in movies, and think that they could do it. It’s far more difficult and far more convoluted to grow into a fully realized man that values others, and works hard despite not garnering massive wealth. To live a life of charity and humility isn’t sexy, and doesn’t make one a millionaire. So why would they flock to it?
Fix wealth inequality, and you’ll fix a LOT of issues we have today, including (I think) the rise of toxic male influencers.
There are plenty of healthy ways to perform masculinity. If all you’ve managed to understand from that discourse is “all masculinity is toxic” then I’m afraid you just haven’t been paying attention. Toxic masculinity is when young men are taught that the only way to be a man is to be strong, outgoing, possessive, stoic, unemotional and tall (among other things). Toxic masculinity is when men that don’t fit those stereotypes are beaten down, verbally, but often physically, because they don’t conform. Because they’re gay, have “effeminate” hobbies, are short, weak, empathetic, dress sharply, you name it. It’s also harmful to women, but more than anything it’s men hurting other men for nonconformance.
Because it’s not a deeply structural societal issue? Before I transitioned, I faced the effects of toxic masculinity every single day, dozens if not hundreds of times a day. Meanwhile, yeah, my conformance to femininity has absolutely been questioned post-transition, but nowhere near as much. Women and girls have spent the last two centuries working through the toxic and smothering nature of traditional femininity, as much as the patriarchal nature of society had allowed us too.
This is exactly the explanation that causes them to rebel.
Believe what you want to believe. I’m just glad I don’t live somewhere this is a problem on the level of the U.S. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This.
Okay bros
Wait
I honestly believe that teaching young people about the academic ideas of toxic masculinity has contributed to this problem. We are telling young boys and men (who don’t even know what masculinity even is yet) that men are toxic.
It’s dumb. It’s not like we are teaching what non toxic femininity or non toxic masculinity is or even what it looks like, we’re just telling them that men are toxic rapists. It’s ridiculous.
I get it, like maybe in the context of a sex education class, teach kids what consent looks like, but teaching kids about academic ideas like the patriarchy and toxic masculinity just makes them feel like they were born with sin or something for being a sexual human being.
We are not, though? The idea of toxic masculinity does not tell anyone that men are toxic, or even that masculinity in general is toxic, it’s about specific behaviors.
I think this is cope tbh, people say the same thing about how teaching real history is just teaching “white guilt,” but this is just low effort denialism to try and say the problem wouldn’t exist if you just stop talking about it. I was a white person in school, and I never felt guilty for being a white person when I learned what America did, I felt like America did bad things.
Similarly, teaching boys that “hey, you know that behavior you might see in old movies that looks kinda cool? it turns you into an asshole if you act like that in real life” is not teaching them male guilt or self hatred.
You say this is “cope”? I don’t know what that means
I’m giving you an upvote because I actually like this topic and you seem genuine, and also because I’m still always trying to learn more….
I actually had the same thought when I was typing my response about how teaching white kids about how our country (USA) was founded on slavery, the idea of “white guilt” edit (I couldn’t remember what it was called though)
But I don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
Black people are not 50% of the population, and are not…. In the same sense, forced to live here and also forced to deal with systemic oppression…. In the same way. (Edit: I’m saying black folks have gone through ten times worse than what “women” {or “men”} have gone through)
(Edit: CAN YOU SEE HOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ISSUES MEN AND BOYS ARE DEALING WITH, and trying to work through and discuss, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THE ASSUMPTION IS THEY THEY ARE NOT THE VICTIMS BUT THE AGGRESSORS? This is why, to answer the question of the original post)
Like I said, I had the same thought about it.
I still think class is more fundamental. I think race sex class issues are not equal. I think that maybe, race and sex issues stem from the class issues. Still trying to figure it out though, I’m not the end all be all of arbiter of how things are…. Okay, I might be but I don’t make any assumptions about it or rub it in anyones’ faces or anything like that…. 👀
I have to feed my dogs though before I can respond to the rest one sec
Edit: so the first point about we are not teaching kids (young men and boys) they are toxic?
I would argue that teaching them about toxic masculinity without having any reference or ever having used the word positive masculinity before, that yes, we are indeed teaching our young men and boys that they are toxic.
And for your last point… oh come on now there’s appropriate times for acting like Dirty Harry, especially if you can make jokes in stressful situations……
Edit: the more I think about the comparison to white guilt argument is it reminds me of everything I understand about intersectionality…. I think my main complaint is that teaching young people graduate level race and gender theories without all the prerequisite understandings needed to take those courses, we are leaving our kids to tell each other to check their privilege and writing off anyone who disagrees with us, which in elementary school means writing off the guy who made fun of your mother for being so fat or skinny or so dumb she sits on the television to watch the couch.
Toxic masculinity and privilege are systemic issues, not issues related to whether bully Johnie gave me a wedgie or not. (Although it could be I suppose 🤷♂️)
Done except for grammar etc sorry for so many edits