So diva basically just straight up lied to you, I never even said what ever they’re referencing lol here:
If it was true they would have directly linked the comment
But diva is a known Tankie of .ml, lying about other users isn’t even the worst they do, here check this comm for documentation of the shenanigans .ml tankies get up to: [email protected]
People who spend all their time punching left when the US secret police are straight up disappearing people from the streets and sending them to a concentration camp should be treated like the Nazis they are, yes.
Lol “punching left” nah I just don’t subscribe to the idea of replacing capitalism authoritarianism with “left flavored” authoritarianism that the tankies push so hard for
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
openly supportive of russian genocidal imperialism
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like
Yeah, that’s the problem. You’re operating off “many others” instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldn’t be saying this stuff.
A lot of what you’re saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. I’m pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that I’m not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what I’ve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming they’re all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I don’t even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that “vote blue” contingent you’re talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though we’re talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden we’re not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US “team”, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Y’all have a fantasy that it exists… you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who don’t care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how “condescending” was super important to assign weight and value to, but “snatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOT” was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I’m not into it.
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
“I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
I’ve tried searching through my inbox looking for interactions between us but wasn’t able to find anything, but my inbox is rather…extensive and there’s no inbox searching tools AFAIK lol
Considering diva just straight up lied (see below), id like to review this disagreement we had myself
I just had this weird attack of perspective, man. What the hell am I doing here? I like the idea of talking about politics and keeping up with what’s going on in the world, and bouncing ideas off people and hearing new stuff. But it seems like Lemmy in particular is just full of all these super-weird aggressive people who are wrong about everything.
I feel like there’s a certain perspective that it’s just “oh ho that’s the internet for you” but it really just suddenly seemed like a big waste of time. Like here I am really trying to explain to this dude why his MAGA-friendly instance is not popular, or to Diva why someone might want to vote for Kamala Harris thinking that would be a good thing, and for what? What am I gaining from all of this? It’s not any successful communication with the people I’m talking to specifically, I don’t think.
I just had this weird attack of perspective, man. What the hell am I doing here? I like the idea of talking about politics and keeping up with what’s going on in the world, and bouncing ideas off people and hearing new stuff. But it seems like Lemmy in particular is just full of all these super-weird aggressive people who are wrong about everything.
Lemmy is still small, it needs people to push back against these extremely aggressive types to grow, the Lemmy-verse at large is tipping away from the tankies, slowly but surely. There are very few tankie-aligned and even fewer right-wing aligned instances. On Reddit, it wasn’t nearly as bad because there were just so many people that unless you were early or on a niche subreddit, the “extremely aggressive” types were downvoted and ridiculed to oblivion already and it was big enough that it wasn’t really necessary to do so.
I feel like there’s a certain perspective that it’s just “oh ho that’s the internet for you” but it really just suddenly seemed like a big waste of time. Like here I am really trying to explain to this dude why his MAGA-friendly instance is not popular, or to Diva why someone might want to vote for Kamala Harris thinking that would be a good thing, and for what? What am I gaining from all of this? It’s not any successful communication with the people I’m talking to specifically, I don’t think.
I changed my own perspective long ago, I no longer engage with people like Diva to convince them but to convince and show the “silent lurkers” what Tankies and right-wingers really think around here. And in doing so, it goes a long way to fostering a more positive rep for the Lemmy-verse on the outside
To truly make progress though, we need bigger and louder calls for defederation of toxic instances like .ml and the rest of the triad amongst the bigger instances. Which is also helped by debating to the “silent lurkers”
You were going off because I…cracked a joke on a couple threads about .ml lmao, and then you were specifically going off because someone asked for an Eli5 of “the joke”
You’re joking, right? Or am I missing something?
So diva basically just straight up lied to you, I never even said what ever they’re referencing lol here:
If it was true they would have directly linked the comment
But diva is a known Tankie of .ml, lying about other users isn’t even the worst they do, here check this comm for documentation of the shenanigans .ml tankies get up to: [email protected]
I got confused (multiple times), but, yes. It does seem Diva is a stereotypical tankie.
Note how they also love victimizing themselves.
People who spend all their time punching left when the US secret police are straight up disappearing people from the streets and sending them to a concentration camp should be treated like the Nazis they are, yes.
Lol “punching left” nah I just don’t subscribe to the idea of replacing capitalism authoritarianism with “left flavored” authoritarianism that the tankies push so hard for
[email protected] for documentation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying cm0002 is a Nazi or something like that.
I disagree with the characterization of LW, but at least now I correctly understand what you are saying. 😀
feel free to disagree with it, from where I’m standing they are, and he is
No, this is a ridiculous statement.
Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’m an anarchist, I don’t ‘support’ any of these parties beyond having a cautious optimism seeing China execute billionaires who misbehave.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
I outlined my position in the other reply, these servers are not really a monolith other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
You talk big, yet you wish death to Ukrainians and cheer for russians to capture Ukrainian territory and eradicate Ukrainian culture.
You’re not fooling anyone.
EDIT: Since you’re fine with ice pick murder fantasies, let me say the following:
I do hope one day you and your fellow tankies get to experience the life of “Donbas Cowboy”, Russell Bentley.
Just imagine what was going through his mind in those last moments.
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
Here’s the kind of thing I was talking about:
https://ponder.cat/post/2492263
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
Yeah, that’s the problem. You’re operating off “many others” instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldn’t be saying this stuff.
A lot of what you’re saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. I’m pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that I’m not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what I’ve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming they’re all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I don’t even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that “vote blue” contingent you’re talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though we’re talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden we’re not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US “team”, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Y’all have a fantasy that it exists… you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who don’t care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how “condescending” was super important to assign weight and value to, but “snatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOT” was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I’m not into it.
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
Well, there is a lot more to protest now with Trump.
It is annoying for people to dismiss any critisism against the democrats. Some people think they are a perfect, flawless party.
Not a single person said that.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
Three in this thread alone?
It all makes sense now.
I’ve called them out before on their bs, but only got downvotes for it.
I’ve tried searching through my inbox looking for interactions between us but wasn’t able to find anything, but my inbox is rather…extensive and there’s no inbox searching tools AFAIK lol
Considering diva just straight up lied (see below), id like to review this disagreement we had myself
I think she was talking about a comment from me.
I couldn’t make out what her point was, but somehow I said something and she thought that you had said it.
That is HILARIOUS lmao I wasn’t even in this thread until now so ig im living rent free ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
She has def called me a Nazi though so I didn’t doubt it for a second lol
I just had this weird attack of perspective, man. What the hell am I doing here? I like the idea of talking about politics and keeping up with what’s going on in the world, and bouncing ideas off people and hearing new stuff. But it seems like Lemmy in particular is just full of all these super-weird aggressive people who are wrong about everything.
I feel like there’s a certain perspective that it’s just “oh ho that’s the internet for you” but it really just suddenly seemed like a big waste of time. Like here I am really trying to explain to this dude why his MAGA-friendly instance is not popular, or to Diva why someone might want to vote for Kamala Harris thinking that would be a good thing, and for what? What am I gaining from all of this? It’s not any successful communication with the people I’m talking to specifically, I don’t think.
Lemmy is still small, it needs people to push back against these extremely aggressive types to grow, the Lemmy-verse at large is tipping away from the tankies, slowly but surely. There are very few tankie-aligned and even fewer right-wing aligned instances. On Reddit, it wasn’t nearly as bad because there were just so many people that unless you were early or on a niche subreddit, the “extremely aggressive” types were downvoted and ridiculed to oblivion already and it was big enough that it wasn’t really necessary to do so.
I changed my own perspective long ago, I no longer engage with people like Diva to convince them but to convince and show the “silent lurkers” what Tankies and right-wingers really think around here. And in doing so, it goes a long way to fostering a more positive rep for the Lemmy-verse on the outside
To truly make progress though, we need bigger and louder calls for defederation of toxic instances like .ml and the rest of the triad amongst the bigger instances. Which is also helped by debating to the “silent lurkers”
https://lemmy.ca/comment/15444225
Oh yea I remember now lol
You were going off because I…cracked a joke on a couple threads about .ml lmao, and then you were specifically going off because someone asked for an Eli5 of “the joke”