Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
openly supportive of russian genocidal imperialism
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
I went and checked, was it on this account? The only thing I see in their modlog is you got a comment removed- this one:
and like I agree with removing that, it just looks like you’re doing this:
You didn’t even get banned.
Like I’ve actually tried looking up every time I see someone complaining about draconian mod actions and more often then not it’s something that just someone stirring shit and getting their wrist slapped, rather than the free speech 1984 gulag that they go on to complain about elsewhere.
My whole instance is defederated from Hexbear as far as I can tell. I can’t quite make sense of what shows in their “instances” page, but I’m not in “allowed.” Also, entertainingly enough they are apparently happy to make use of my RSS feed communities from rss.ponder.cat, although apparently totally uninterested in the actual news contained there. No one is subscribed to anything except for hackaday.
Here, look at this: https://ponder.cat/c/[email protected] – I am subscribed, but it hasn’t updated in 6 months ever since I participated in that thread.
As I explained in that thread when someone sent me that same picture, I am not at all fantasizing about Trump sending pro-Palestinian or pro-migrant people to concentration camps. I’m not by any means happy about it. That’s why I tried to stop it from happening and was alarmed when they were uninterested in one particular way of stopping it. Surely that makes sense? Or yes it does, or no?
thank you for the “radio free Europe” article I will file that away with the rest of the high quality journalism.
Tankie scum are so predictable. You’re so tied to your CIA/BIA narrative that you can’t even think straight. The RFE article cites internal russian judicial decisions which can be further cross-referenced by russian propaganda.
Or are you saying the BIA hacked russian propaganda sources and russian judicial rulings in order to “make the RFE article seem more real”?
I most certainly do not. You seem primed to construe anything that’s not absolute demonization as support though.
Don’t lie. Tankie scum denies russian atrocities in Ukraine. “Bucha never happened, tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians aren’t held in concentration camps in occupied territories, Ukrainian language and culture aren’t prosecuted in occupied territories.” I’ve had multiple tankie roaches tell me this on Lemmy.
But the worst part is that you do this merely due to internet roleplay reasons. You don’t speak russian, you don’t speak Ukrainian. You’ve never lived in russia, you’ve never lived in Ukraine.
You couldn’t even use common sense to figure out that stating “BIA wrote that fake article” logically does not work (even if you are a tankie), because you can cross validate it in 30 seconds via a russian language search that clearly shows russian propaganda channels saying the same thing as RFE (and you can even find the formal russian judicial ruling on government websites).
Let’s hope Russell Bentley’s learning experience is something you and other tankie scum will experience as well!
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I don’t think this is them trolling you, (…)
spoiler
it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ‘dumbfuck’
I’m actually primarily a .ml user, (…)
spoiler
I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but I’ve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (…)
spoiler
The “answering questions” sticks out, because that’s what they’re referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- it’s not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, that’s just internet slang. I didn’t see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if they’re not browsing local.
I could just ignore it but I feel like that’s not the way. I don’t really feel like ceding the narrative space to them even if 99% of the people reading understand that they’re full of shit about it. I think most people have just moved on from wanting to engage with it.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and it’s something I’m working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since you’re banned, I’ll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why you’re going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
spoiler
It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way it’s not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
spoiler
It’s a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war that’s been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
spoiler
Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, it’s part of why people are opposed to wars in general.
“Nazi Government that the US props up”, “pogroms” from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Aren’t you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
spoiler
I’m actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like you’re just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that they’re fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, let’s go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
How Trump backed away from promising to end the Russia-Ukraine war in 24 hours
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process that’s going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that ‘going home’ might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
spoiler
I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying “what are you RUSSIAN?” at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, we’re not all going to have the same opinions, there’s plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. There’s no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like you’re in a propaganda space that you need to defend. That’s my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant it’s a bit heavy handed considering it’s an offsite comment.
From what I’ve gathered in my time is there’s a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this ‘propaganda space’ and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I don’t think there’s a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
Yeah, I’m completely fine with a serious discussion about it, because you seem like you’re capable of a serious discussion. So, right from the jump, the first comment they made:
That immediately to me is super offensive. Probably more so than pig shit pictures, definitely more so than me being condescending to them. Why? Because it is deliberate lies in service of killing. I still dealt with it factually, and I indicated I’d be open to a factual exchange. You want me to be nice about it also? Why would I do that? That doesn’t seem like it’s necessary.
I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he won’t (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that aren’t broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.
Bottom line: I’ve known people from Ukraine. I’ve talked with them about their country getting torn apart, people they know getting killed, with an endless stream of lies coming from the other side about the reasons why and the things they can do to stop it from happening. I just don’t have patience for it. My whole SA analogy is in absolutely no way frivolous. I think it’s an absolutely spot-on way of expressing the horror of Russia claiming they’re only blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals because someone might be trying to resist them or give a security guarantee, and they didn’t like that, so they have every right to keep killing until they feel like stopping. And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they can’t fight back anymore. I think it’s disgusting, and I don’t think I’m required to be nice when explaining why.
I don’t think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be “overly antagonistic” when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that you’re planning to follow them yourself.
I do think that some of the Hexbear people are just confused and going along with the herd in terms of their beliefs and behavior. The whole propaganda framing is pretty powerful. Calm conversation is “sealioning” and it’s bad. Dissenting voices are conflated with bigotry, even if they have nothing to do with it, and so banning dissent is “protecting the space” from bigotry and just standing up for the oppressed which no other instance will do. Of course. There are all these words that get redefined as other different words, and all sorts of facts that aren’t true that are repeated so aggressively and often that they start to get accepted, and so these things they believe and do start to make sense within the off-kilter light they’re seen in.
Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either
Yes it is.
There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:
That Ukraine’s Nazi government was randomly shelling civilians in Donbas and Russia tried their best through good means to put a stop to it, and eventually, they had no choice but to invade.
That Moscow funded separatists to start a mini-civil-war in Donbas and then blamed the resulting death on an imaginary Nazi government in Kyiv.
I know that several times I’ve asked people who told me the first narrative to back it up, and they couldn’t. They would send me sources that said one thing claiming it said something else, send me random Youtube videos that didn’t actually prove anything, that kind of thing. I don’t actually know whether it is the second narrative that’s true, or whether it’s sort of a “truth is somewhere in the middle” type of thing. It’s hard to say, at least for me with as much as I’ve looked into it. But I definitely have seen several people who said it was the first thing and found out afterwards that they were talking purely out of their ass.
Uncritically saying that Moscow’s narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me. The fact that Moscow says the first narrative is what happened means absolutely nothing to me, since they generally lie about all kinds of things constantly. I touched on that in that big conversation (with no substantive response, go figure). I’ve never heard anyone outside of that bubble say that’s what happened. And, like I said, even if it did happen exactly the way Moscow claims it did, that wouldn’t excuse three years of mass killing in Ukraine. They’ve killed more Russian-speakers now, probably a hundred times over, by sending them into the meat grinder or just semi-accidentally bombing their homes in the course of the war, than anyone ever claimed had been killed in Donbas.
If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and they’re unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.
I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
This is a great example of what I was talking about. It’s just lies. The underlying fact is true, the court did order Ukraine to pay some people because of what happened in the burning of the trade union building, but it’s being summarized in a wildly misleading way. On purpose. To tell lies to justify slaughter.
I would actually really recommend that you read the actual judgement that they’re summarizing here in this way. You tell me whether this page you linked me to is summarizing what the court actually found in an accurate way.
Like I say: I’m fine having a factual discussion about it, but I don’t see why I would be obligated in any way to be nice to someone who doesn’t want that and is also willing to be 10 times more offensive than I am when they’re on the other side of the disagreement. To me that’s not offensive, it’s just fairness.
It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like
Yeah, that’s the problem. You’re operating off “many others” instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldn’t be saying this stuff.
A lot of what you’re saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. I’m pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that I’m not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what I’ve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming they’re all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I don’t even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that “vote blue” contingent you’re talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though we’re talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden we’re not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US “team”, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Y’all have a fantasy that it exists… you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who don’t care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how “condescending” was super important to assign weight and value to, but “snatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOT” was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I’m not into it.
If I come across a group of people all using the same contrived name for an instance I’m on, I’m going to associate them all together. “tankie triad” mudslinging is why I’m responding with this dynamic that you’ve identified. Turnabout is fair play.
You made the original accusation of a .ml hivemind, hence my wide-ranging explanation, because that’s what it took to convey my point.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. … If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I’m not into it.
If you’re tired of being my interlocutor I’m happy to disengage. I was only explaining my objection to your original assertion, I provided my perspective.
IDK, maybe it’s fair to say that they’ve realized that Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war at this point. They do seem to have developed some acceptability for the anti-Putin point of view, at least, I’ll give them that.
You seem like you took “hivemind” as pejorative, which I guess is fair. But all I said was that lemmy.ml in general has a consensus view about Ukraine and Xinjiang. No?
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
“I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
So, your example is some butt-hurt Hexbear mods that need to be introduced to the world of sarcasm?
And speaking of-
OMG! I honestly believed you though I didn’t know what paraphrasing meant!
/s
And for the record: Hexbear links aren’t going to be acceptable as evidence to anything other than proof that literacy isn’t an accurate representation of intelligence.
Ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying cm0002 is a Nazi or something like that.
I disagree with the characterization of LW, but at least now I correctly understand what you are saying. 😀
feel free to disagree with it, from where I’m standing they are, and he is
No, this is a ridiculous statement.
Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’m an anarchist, I don’t ‘support’ any of these parties beyond having a cautious optimism seeing China execute billionaires who misbehave.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
I outlined my position in the other reply, these servers are not really a monolith other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
I went and checked, was it on this account? The only thing I see in their modlog is you got a comment removed- this one:
and like I agree with removing that, it just looks like you’re doing this:
You didn’t even get banned.
Like I’ve actually tried looking up every time I see someone complaining about draconian mod actions and more often then not it’s something that just someone stirring shit and getting their wrist slapped, rather than the free speech 1984 gulag that they go on to complain about elsewhere.
My whole instance is defederated from Hexbear as far as I can tell. I can’t quite make sense of what shows in their “instances” page, but I’m not in “allowed.” Also, entertainingly enough they are apparently happy to make use of my RSS feed communities from rss.ponder.cat, although apparently totally uninterested in the actual news contained there. No one is subscribed to anything except for hackaday.
Here, look at this: https://ponder.cat/c/[email protected] – I am subscribed, but it hasn’t updated in 6 months ever since I participated in that thread.
As I explained in that thread when someone sent me that same picture, I am not at all fantasizing about Trump sending pro-Palestinian or pro-migrant people to concentration camps. I’m not by any means happy about it. That’s why I tried to stop it from happening and was alarmed when they were uninterested in one particular way of stopping it. Surely that makes sense? Or yes it does, or no?
You talk big, yet you wish death to Ukrainians and cheer for russians to capture Ukrainian territory and eradicate Ukrainian culture.
You’re not fooling anyone.
EDIT: Since you’re fine with ice pick murder fantasies, let me say the following:
I do hope one day you and your fellow tankies get to experience the life of “Donbas Cowboy”, Russell Bentley.
Just imagine what was going through his mind in those last moments.
re: death threat, For the record, I apologized to the guy and he accepted it.
I most certainly do not. You seem primed to construe anything that’s not absolute demonization as support though.
thank you for the “radio free Europe” article I will file that away with the rest of the high quality journalism.
Tankie scum are so predictable. You’re so tied to your CIA/BIA narrative that you can’t even think straight. The RFE article cites internal russian judicial decisions which can be further cross-referenced by russian propaganda.
Or are you saying the BIA hacked russian propaganda sources and russian judicial rulings in order to “make the RFE article seem more real”?
Don’t lie. Tankie scum denies russian atrocities in Ukraine. “Bucha never happened, tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians aren’t held in concentration camps in occupied territories, Ukrainian language and culture aren’t prosecuted in occupied territories.” I’ve had multiple tankie roaches tell me this on Lemmy.
But the worst part is that you do this merely due to internet roleplay reasons. You don’t speak russian, you don’t speak Ukrainian. You’ve never lived in russia, you’ve never lived in Ukraine.
You couldn’t even use common sense to figure out that stating “BIA wrote that fake article” logically does not work (even if you are a tankie), because you can cross validate it in 30 seconds via a russian language search that clearly shows russian propaganda channels saying the same thing as RFE (and you can even find the formal russian judicial ruling on government websites).
Let’s hope Russell Bentley’s learning experience is something you and other tankie scum will experience as well!
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
Here’s the kind of thing I was talking about:
https://ponder.cat/post/2492263
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I don’t think this is them trolling you, (…)
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it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ‘dumbfuck’
I’m actually primarily a .ml user, (…)
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I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but I’ve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (…)
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The “answering questions” sticks out, because that’s what they’re referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- it’s not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, that’s just internet slang. I didn’t see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if they’re not browsing local.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and it’s something I’m working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since you’re banned, I’ll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why you’re going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
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It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way it’s not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
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It’s a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war that’s been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
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Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, it’s part of why people are opposed to wars in general. “Nazi Government that the US props up”, “pogroms” from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Aren’t you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
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I’m actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like you’re just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that they’re fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, let’s go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process that’s going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that ‘going home’ might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
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I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying “what are you RUSSIAN?” at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, we’re not all going to have the same opinions, there’s plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. There’s no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like you’re in a propaganda space that you need to defend. That’s my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant it’s a bit heavy handed considering it’s an offsite comment.
From what I’ve gathered in my time is there’s a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this ‘propaganda space’ and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I don’t think there’s a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
Yeah, I’m completely fine with a serious discussion about it, because you seem like you’re capable of a serious discussion. So, right from the jump, the first comment they made:
That immediately to me is super offensive. Probably more so than pig shit pictures, definitely more so than me being condescending to them. Why? Because it is deliberate lies in service of killing. I still dealt with it factually, and I indicated I’d be open to a factual exchange. You want me to be nice about it also? Why would I do that? That doesn’t seem like it’s necessary.
I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he won’t (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that aren’t broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.
Bottom line: I’ve known people from Ukraine. I’ve talked with them about their country getting torn apart, people they know getting killed, with an endless stream of lies coming from the other side about the reasons why and the things they can do to stop it from happening. I just don’t have patience for it. My whole SA analogy is in absolutely no way frivolous. I think it’s an absolutely spot-on way of expressing the horror of Russia claiming they’re only blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals because someone might be trying to resist them or give a security guarantee, and they didn’t like that, so they have every right to keep killing until they feel like stopping. And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they can’t fight back anymore. I think it’s disgusting, and I don’t think I’m required to be nice when explaining why.
I don’t think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be “overly antagonistic” when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that you’re planning to follow them yourself.
I do think that some of the Hexbear people are just confused and going along with the herd in terms of their beliefs and behavior. The whole propaganda framing is pretty powerful. Calm conversation is “sealioning” and it’s bad. Dissenting voices are conflated with bigotry, even if they have nothing to do with it, and so banning dissent is “protecting the space” from bigotry and just standing up for the oppressed which no other instance will do. Of course. There are all these words that get redefined as other different words, and all sorts of facts that aren’t true that are repeated so aggressively and often that they start to get accepted, and so these things they believe and do start to make sense within the off-kilter light they’re seen in.
Yes it is.
There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:
I know that several times I’ve asked people who told me the first narrative to back it up, and they couldn’t. They would send me sources that said one thing claiming it said something else, send me random Youtube videos that didn’t actually prove anything, that kind of thing. I don’t actually know whether it is the second narrative that’s true, or whether it’s sort of a “truth is somewhere in the middle” type of thing. It’s hard to say, at least for me with as much as I’ve looked into it. But I definitely have seen several people who said it was the first thing and found out afterwards that they were talking purely out of their ass.
Uncritically saying that Moscow’s narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me. The fact that Moscow says the first narrative is what happened means absolutely nothing to me, since they generally lie about all kinds of things constantly. I touched on that in that big conversation (with no substantive response, go figure). I’ve never heard anyone outside of that bubble say that’s what happened. And, like I said, even if it did happen exactly the way Moscow claims it did, that wouldn’t excuse three years of mass killing in Ukraine. They’ve killed more Russian-speakers now, probably a hundred times over, by sending them into the meat grinder or just semi-accidentally bombing their homes in the course of the war, than anyone ever claimed had been killed in Donbas.
If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and they’re unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.
This is a great example of what I was talking about. It’s just lies. The underlying fact is true, the court did order Ukraine to pay some people because of what happened in the burning of the trade union building, but it’s being summarized in a wildly misleading way. On purpose. To tell lies to justify slaughter.
I would actually really recommend that you read the actual judgement that they’re summarizing here in this way. You tell me whether this page you linked me to is summarizing what the court actually found in an accurate way.
Like I say: I’m fine having a factual discussion about it, but I don’t see why I would be obligated in any way to be nice to someone who doesn’t want that and is also willing to be 10 times more offensive than I am when they’re on the other side of the disagreement. To me that’s not offensive, it’s just fairness.
Yeah, that’s the problem. You’re operating off “many others” instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldn’t be saying this stuff.
A lot of what you’re saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. I’m pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that I’m not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what I’ve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming they’re all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I don’t even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that “vote blue” contingent you’re talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though we’re talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden we’re not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US “team”, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Y’all have a fantasy that it exists… you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who don’t care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how “condescending” was super important to assign weight and value to, but “snatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOT” was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, I’m not into it.
If I come across a group of people all using the same contrived name for an instance I’m on, I’m going to associate them all together. “tankie triad” mudslinging is why I’m responding with this dynamic that you’ve identified. Turnabout is fair play.
You made the original accusation of a .ml hivemind, hence my wide-ranging explanation, because that’s what it took to convey my point.
If you’re tired of being my interlocutor I’m happy to disengage. I was only explaining my objection to your original assertion, I provided my perspective.
I said that lemmy.ml has a consensus that genocide in Ukraine and Xinjiang is okay.
Check this out (search date range limiting is broken maybe? IDK, you have to talk to the developers):
https://lemmy.ml/search?q=xinjiang&type=Comments&listingType=All&page=1&sort=TopWeek
As for Ukraine:
https://lemmy.ml/search?q=ukraine&type=Comments&listingType=Local&page=1&sort=TopWeek
IDK, maybe it’s fair to say that they’ve realized that Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war at this point. They do seem to have developed some acceptability for the anti-Putin point of view, at least, I’ll give them that.
You seem like you took “hivemind” as pejorative, which I guess is fair. But all I said was that lemmy.ml in general has a consensus view about Ukraine and Xinjiang. No?
Any conversation about Kamala Harris?
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
Well, there is a lot more to protest now with Trump.
It is annoying for people to dismiss any critisism against the democrats. Some people think they are a perfect, flawless party.
Not a single person said that.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
Three in this thread alone?
That one came from this- https://hexbear.net/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=1765223
It looked enough like gloating about the situation to piss people off:
https://hexbear.net/comment/5568891
“let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing” I meant it as world; like I’m introducing an entirely new concept to you, rather than just a word.
So, your example is some butt-hurt Hexbear mods that need to be introduced to the world of sarcasm?
And speaking of-
OMG! I honestly believed you though I didn’t know what paraphrasing meant!
/s
And for the record: Hexbear links aren’t going to be acceptable as evidence to anything other than proof that literacy isn’t an accurate representation of intelligence.