• saltesc@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    11
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    That was the concerning part. Defining, very permanently, a group of people from all the others based on race. That’s literally anti-equality.

    It was a very disheartening thing to happen and I couldn’t participate. Both options supporting going backward.

    I think most people that spoke proudly of their choice didn’t fundamentally understand what was going on, how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and their nations work, nor the history of support to this point. Australians should be pissed off that it even happened and that was the choices. They shouldn’t be pissed off at the outcome or people’s choices. If they can point that energy toward the governments, we’d be progressing. Though, I’m sure it’ll all go back to business as usual and people will be on something else, doing nothing to educate themselves and be proactive.

    • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      Think of an outcome metric by which indigenous Australians aren’t materially worse off. As you struggle, I’d like you to tell me if you think that gap a product of inferior genetics or institutional racism?

      If it’s institutional racism, why would you call solutions targeted at closing that gap and reaching something resembling racial equality racist?

      • saltesc@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        I think you’re fundamentally missing the point and trying to set up targets to attack. You don’t even know my background, point of view, or stance.

        For starters, I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side. Though you say I have and that’s all you’re talking about? Why? Where did that come from? Refer to my third paragraph. You have underscored it for me.

        I’d appreciate it—certainly others would too—if you took the time and energy spent on me toward improving the situation by directing it where it will make a difference. Division of allies is not what any ethnicity in any nation needs and I’d urge you to not participate in it.

        • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side.

          In that case, what do you mean when you say:

          That was the concerning part. Defining, very permanently, a group of people from all the others based on race. That’s literally anti-equality.

          If you think the gap is genetic, you’re a racist motivated by racism, and the solutions are irrelevant. If the issue is systemic racism, what’s anti-equality about targeting the affected group to bring their outcomes to a more equal level?

          I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side. Though you say I have and that’s all you’re talking about? Why?

          Beyond the points above, the specific options presented seem irrelevant. There’s no pleasing the racists that see indigenous people as genetically inferior, it seems you’d label any targeted solution as racial anti-equality (racism by another name), and we’re not taking a transition to a socialist utopia to a referendum any time soon.

          The solution taken to the referendum was a product of the Uluru statement from the heart and associated activity, developed in partnership with the indigenous community, and supported by ~80% of the indigenous population. I figure they understand “how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and their nations work, (and) the history of support to this point.” better than anyone.

          The solution presented was inadequate in my opinion, but a start. What solution would effectively deliver something resembling racial equality without being targeted “racial anti-equality”?

          • saltesc@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I don’t think you quite understand what racism fundamentally is. And I still don’t understand how anything you’re saying has anything to do with what I’ve said. You’re simply looking for a fight, but there is none there.

            Any effective solution to racial equality does not allow people to have things that others don’t based on race; whether intended for good or bad, no exception. We are all equal.

            If you can’t understand that, it’s a worry. Constantly dropping the racism card is just mind-blowing levels of misunderstanding and showing an “us” and “them” mindset, even if your intentions are good. This is the kind of behaviour that damages progress and puts a bad taste in people’s mouth; it is division where there should be unity. Societies cannot move forward and build on foundations that have a divide. That has and never will fundamentally work in the long-term; we know this.

            Perhaps instead of being so upset, trying to start arguments, and dropping the racism card completely out of context, you start doing something proactive. Everyone else already is, especially Elders of both sides of the vote. Why did this not work? Do Australians care that much? How do we unify and move together as a people? This is the main objective and where your energy is best placed.

            • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Any effective solution to racial equality does not allow people to have things that others don’t based on race; whether intended for good or bad, no exception. We are all equal.

              Except by just about any metric you choose to look at, indigenous Australians are materially worse off. We’re factually not equal, and defence of the status quo that led to that perpetuates that inequality, again begs the question of whether the inequality is genetic (absurd, and racist, but if taken at face value could possibly be used to defend the status quo), or systemic - demonstrating that the system is currently racist and needs to be fixed.

              How do we unify and move together as a people?

              We start with a clear idea of the problem (which it seems you’ve failed to do if you’re not recognising the current inequality or it’s cause), and work on solutions from there (the process that was followed with the statement from the heart) rather than tossing out any targeted solutions immediately and without assessment because you think they’re racist anti racial equality.

              • saltesc@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Again, you’re in full attack mode. It won’t work on a person that recognises the wild division and refuses to participate in any form of division.

                Seeming as you know nothing about me—who I am, what I have done, what I do, and what I’m involved in—please, I’d love to hear what makes you say something like this…

                We start with a clear idea of the problem (which it seems you’ve failed to do if you’re not recognising the current inequality or it’s cause)

                I’m clearly not participating and am refusing to get into the box you’re trying to put me in. I hope you don’t try to do this to other people as it is of no help. It’s a good thing I’m aware and know what I advocate for—the irony is phenomenal right now—but if this were another person, you could be damaging the cause. It’s feeding that division we don’t need right now and perhaps it has swallowed you up too. Move on with that energy, get better at using it proactively and effectively. I don’t know how many times I have to say that, but if anything gets through, it’s clearly that.

                • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Where exactly have I attacked you or told you what you believe?

                  Asking people to pick their box is a pretty quick and effective way of shaking out peoples positions, and either understand why my framing is wrong, or shake out peoples’ positions quickly.

                  In response to you saying indigenous represesentation in the constitution is racist, I pointed out the existing racial inequality, and pointed to the 2 possible root causes. I assume you don’t think the gap is genetic, so how do we address the gap, and racism baked into the system without mention of race (or whatever you belive crosses the line into racism) - this is straight to the point, and you ran from it.

                  So far, you’ve told me I don’t understand your positions as you’ve dodged just about every question I’ve asked about them, and made assertions like I don’t understand the definition of racism while failing to point out where my definition is wrong or provide an alternative. This is bad-faith behaviour, and the kind of nonsense I see from the likes of closet Nazis who will turn up, ‘just ask questions’, and sow seeds of doubt while trying to hide their beliefs because they know it’ll scare away any sane person, but will drop straight to the JQ when you ask a couple of questions. I don’t think you’re a Nazi, but I do wonder why you’re sticking around to use so many words to say so little.

                  I’m perfectly happy being hostile toward racists, and want division between myself and Nazis - they didn’t reason themselves into the racism, so I’m not going to be able to reason them out of it, so chasing them off and ridiculing then seems reasonable enough. If you’re carrying on like a bad-faith actor, dodging my questions about what you believe while making unsubstantiated claims about me, where does that leave us?

                  • saltesc@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    In response to you saying indigenous represesentation in the constitution is racist

                    This is your problem. You have made this up in your head and the rest is subsequently unrelatable. Your questions are to that person in your head, certainly not me. What I have said has never altered or been unclear and this is what I find disheartening abiut your actions and behaviour.

                    I wish you well.

      • saltesc@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        My opinion is that the issue is societal, not political. It is our responsibility, not a government’s. The government is to be in service of aiding us in fixing society, but in this case, has historically proven to be ineffective and unaccountable due to lack of society caring enough. To me, the option provided continued to reflect this and was a poorly wasted opportunity. If a legistave pathway carries the same lack of care, it won’t be effective either and that is on society. This is why I continue to say, it’s important to continue momentum on the topic, considering the referendum as a start of a hopeful snowball, but I fear Australians in general don’t care enough, therefore neither will the governments. This is historically how it has been time and again.