I VOTED FOR HER. But thanks for ignoring every substantive argument made about how the Dems fucked this up. It’s super fun seeing people like you learn nothing from these defeats! Can’t wait to watch this happen again in 2028 because you guys refuse to hold Democrats accountable for campaigns designed to appeal donors and consultants instead of voters! Keep enabling them, it’s going great!
You voted for her while explaining how awful you thought she was, which put other voters off voting for her. The election was won for Donald “ethnic cleansing” Trump by people staying home because Harris was so flawed, a point made by republicans and useful left wing idiots alike.
“Yes, you voted for her, but you vocally criticized her. You’re not allowed to speak out against the party like that.” Do you fucking hear yourself yet? Do you still not understand why people call you Blue MAGA?
If all it took was people on social grumbling about their terrible policy plank to sink the campaign, maybe, just maybe, they ran a shit campaign and there’s lessons to be learned.
If all it took was people on social grumbling about their terrible policy plank to sink the campaign, maybe, just maybe, they ran a shit campaign and there’s lessons to be learned.
“The Dems ran a shit campaign” and “Maybe running negative PR campaigns against a candidate reduces a candidate’s support” are not mutually exclusive options.
Tl;Dr the election was the only place that we had to have that discussion.
Look, there was a primary in the literal sense, I voted in it, but there wasn’t a primary in the practical sense. There were no debates, no discussion of his platform for '24, Biden didn’t campaign, and the Democratic party / Biden Campaign worked HARD to shut down questions about Biden’s viability or the Mandela effect where everyone seemed to remember him promising to be a single term president. I mean, I could swear I remember it too; I’m still puzzled about where so many folks got the idea. Then, once we were way past the primary, we found out that Biden was nowhere even near viable shape for the campaign trail. He put on the most disastrously bad debate performance in presidential debate history against an opponent that should have been (and was just four years prior) a joke. None of his other “see? He’s fine” appearances before or after inspired much faith either. So, we basically ended up with Harris and zero discussion about her platform. At first, I was really excited and eager to see what her platform would be. As time went on, though, I started seeing more and more that reminded me of HRC '16 and less meat to get excited about. If there had been a real primary in a practical sense, I would not have voted for Harris (and didn’t vote for Biden, I think I voted Phillips) on the platform she had.
The primaries are a time for the campaigns to work with voters and figure this stuff out, see what appeals to the base and is likely to get them to turn out. We never got to have that conversation with Harris, we barely had it at all with Biden. The only place we could have it is during the election, and my hope was (and remains) that campaigns are agile enough to respond when their base gives them feedback. I don’t support the Democrats because they’re Democrats, I support them because they offer the closest practical path to policies I want to see enacted. I want to see good policy win, and I think good policy will get the democrats their wins. We can’t ever improve if we can’t be accept criticism, and when it comes to politics, the appropriate way to criticize is a bit like finding the appropriate way to protest according to Fox News. We need to have these conversations to get better, and I absolutely do blame the Harris and Biden campaigns for putting themselves in such vulnerable positions and failing to respond appropriately to criticism. Their job is to get elected, and they failed.
Shitty as it was, there was no third or fourth option to be had; once Harris was in the driver’s seat, it was going to be her or Trump, simply by the way our political system is set up. With that in mind, going forward, all questions would have to boil down to “Is it preferable for Harris to enter into the presidency, or Trump?”
If it’s election-time in 1930 Weimar Germany, and my only viable choices in the election district I’m in are the SDP and the Nazis, banging the drum 24/7 on how the SDP is anti-LGBT (true) might not be the greatest choice in the coming election considering that the only other choice are the Nazis, who are MORE anti-LGBT plus a whole host of other horrific things. And if the Nazis themselves are beating that same drum, telling LGBT folk that the SDP is anti-LGBT, I might step back and consider whose electoral victory I’m contributing to by my rhetoric and what consequences it will have - such as on, say, LGBT folk.
We’re sitting here with literal fascists in government. “Our aristocrats weren’t good enough, or didn’t take the correct stance on foreign policy!” isn’t the correct answer to why this election turned out the way it did. Or if it is, that reflects such a broken attitude on the part of the American electorate that it’s not much better than the actual conclusion - most Americans do not care if fascism comes into power. And that includes everyone who didn’t vote, or protest voted. And many of those who didn’t vote or protest voted were inspired to do so by rhetoric encouraging apathy from both conservatives and their useful idiots.
Should the Dems have done a whole host of things differently, including having actual primaries? Are the Dems spineless corporate weasels? Are the Dems beholden to Israeli interests even in the face of a divided base? Yes, yes, yes. But none of that justifies “We’re going to let or help the literal fascists win.”
Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years. At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later. I’d rather choose no Nazis at all, and have the uncomfortable conversations needed to make that happen. Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.
Just so I’m clear, I’ve read chunks of Project 2025. My kids are on the chopping block. I am begging the democrats to do better than being diet Nazi.
You’re right, Pug, a billion dollars in direct spending was derailed by people pointing out the bad things they were seeing. It definitely wasn’t the bad things that cost her the election, just the people acknowledging that the bad things existed and suggesting she do something different. I forgot, if you’re in a car with someone who is about to drive or a cliff, the best thing you can do is remain quiet; you wouldn’t want to distract the driver with your negativity. Once again, Pug, your brilliant insights have saved the day.
I think it’s not fucking magic, Pug. There was far more negative campaigning coming from the hundreds of millions spent by the Trump campaign. There was even more money spent by Harris to negatively campaign against Trump, for all the good it did. But leftists complaining online threw the election? Everyone needs to shut up and smile, because if they criticize the Democrats too loudly they’ll collapse? Is that where we’re at?
I think it’s not fucking magic, Pug. There was far more negative campaigning coming from the hundreds of millions spent by the Trump campaign.
So?
There are millions of votes other than mine; it doesn’t mean that I’m not responsible for my vote, or my other actions.
But leftists complaining online threw the election?
No. But leftists playing negative PR games online contributed to the loss. I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t think they were the tipping point.
But neither was Iowa, yet everyone who voted for Trump or abstained in Iowa is a fucking contributor to the fascist regime.
Not being the deciding factor does not absolve you of the implications of your choices.
Everyone needs to shut up and smile, because if they criticize the Democrats too loudly they’ll collapse? Is that where we’re at?
We were going into an election everyone knew was going to be close, against a literal fascist.
Maybe a little of the ‘United Front’ spirit would’ve been welcome, instead of playing the usual games of “Undermine the SHITLIBS” when there was a candidate promising fascism, with the necessary background to confirm his intentions as sincere, as the only other choice in the running. It’s not even a question of “I oppose all aid to Israel”, but “Harris is a genocide supporter!” The issue was not voicing policy concerns; it was attacking the less vile of the only two candidates who could win.
Tell me, if the election had been lost by a few dozen votes, instead of a touch under two million, would your response be different? Or would it still be “Beating the negative PR drum is Just My Opinion”?
Cant believe after all the messaging around this election that “Shut up, give me your vote, and get zero concessions” is still not attractive to people for some reason. I swear I heard it everywhere, from every blue maga shill and self aggrandizing liberal in the internet… but despite it saturating the narrative she still tanked. Strange how that works.
Fucking incredible how far you’ll go to blame everyone but the people responsible for the loss. Oh, did Harris’ shitty campaign cause widespread voter apathy? Don’t blame the campaign for that, blame the people who talked about it too openly. Oh, you wanted a, “United Front,” against Trump? Do you blame Harris for failing to unite the party behind her? You know, the fucking job of a leader? Nope, it’s the lefts fault for not falling in line.
Like, I don’t even know what to do with this anymore. You’re watching the Democratic coalition collapsed under the party’s mismanagement, and you’re blaming the coalition instead of party. Get a grip, Pug, FFS.
I VOTED FOR HER. But thanks for ignoring every substantive argument made about how the Dems fucked this up. It’s super fun seeing people like you learn nothing from these defeats! Can’t wait to watch this happen again in 2028 because you guys refuse to hold Democrats accountable for campaigns designed to appeal donors and consultants instead of voters! Keep enabling them, it’s going great!
You voted for her while explaining how awful you thought she was, which put other voters off voting for her. The election was won for Donald “ethnic cleansing” Trump by people staying home because Harris was so flawed, a point made by republicans and useful left wing idiots alike.
“Yes, you voted for her, but you vocally criticized her. You’re not allowed to speak out against the party like that.” Do you fucking hear yourself yet? Do you still not understand why people call you Blue MAGA?
Do you not think campaigning has an effect?
If all it took was people on social grumbling about their terrible policy plank to sink the campaign, maybe, just maybe, they ran a shit campaign and there’s lessons to be learned.
“The Dems ran a shit campaign” and “Maybe running negative PR campaigns against a candidate reduces a candidate’s support” are not mutually exclusive options.
Tl;Dr the election was the only place that we had to have that discussion.
Look, there was a primary in the literal sense, I voted in it, but there wasn’t a primary in the practical sense. There were no debates, no discussion of his platform for '24, Biden didn’t campaign, and the Democratic party / Biden Campaign worked HARD to shut down questions about Biden’s viability or the Mandela effect where everyone seemed to remember him promising to be a single term president. I mean, I could swear I remember it too; I’m still puzzled about where so many folks got the idea. Then, once we were way past the primary, we found out that Biden was nowhere even near viable shape for the campaign trail. He put on the most disastrously bad debate performance in presidential debate history against an opponent that should have been (and was just four years prior) a joke. None of his other “see? He’s fine” appearances before or after inspired much faith either. So, we basically ended up with Harris and zero discussion about her platform. At first, I was really excited and eager to see what her platform would be. As time went on, though, I started seeing more and more that reminded me of HRC '16 and less meat to get excited about. If there had been a real primary in a practical sense, I would not have voted for Harris (and didn’t vote for Biden, I think I voted Phillips) on the platform she had.
The primaries are a time for the campaigns to work with voters and figure this stuff out, see what appeals to the base and is likely to get them to turn out. We never got to have that conversation with Harris, we barely had it at all with Biden. The only place we could have it is during the election, and my hope was (and remains) that campaigns are agile enough to respond when their base gives them feedback. I don’t support the Democrats because they’re Democrats, I support them because they offer the closest practical path to policies I want to see enacted. I want to see good policy win, and I think good policy will get the democrats their wins. We can’t ever improve if we can’t be accept criticism, and when it comes to politics, the appropriate way to criticize is a bit like finding the appropriate way to protest according to Fox News. We need to have these conversations to get better, and I absolutely do blame the Harris and Biden campaigns for putting themselves in such vulnerable positions and failing to respond appropriately to criticism. Their job is to get elected, and they failed.
Shitty as it was, there was no third or fourth option to be had; once Harris was in the driver’s seat, it was going to be her or Trump, simply by the way our political system is set up. With that in mind, going forward, all questions would have to boil down to “Is it preferable for Harris to enter into the presidency, or Trump?”
If it’s election-time in 1930 Weimar Germany, and my only viable choices in the election district I’m in are the SDP and the Nazis, banging the drum 24/7 on how the SDP is anti-LGBT (true) might not be the greatest choice in the coming election considering that the only other choice are the Nazis, who are MORE anti-LGBT plus a whole host of other horrific things. And if the Nazis themselves are beating that same drum, telling LGBT folk that the SDP is anti-LGBT, I might step back and consider whose electoral victory I’m contributing to by my rhetoric and what consequences it will have - such as on, say, LGBT folk.
We’re sitting here with literal fascists in government. “Our aristocrats weren’t good enough, or didn’t take the correct stance on foreign policy!” isn’t the correct answer to why this election turned out the way it did. Or if it is, that reflects such a broken attitude on the part of the American electorate that it’s not much better than the actual conclusion - most Americans do not care if fascism comes into power. And that includes everyone who didn’t vote, or protest voted. And many of those who didn’t vote or protest voted were inspired to do so by rhetoric encouraging apathy from both conservatives and their useful idiots.
Should the Dems have done a whole host of things differently, including having actual primaries? Are the Dems spineless corporate weasels? Are the Dems beholden to Israeli interests even in the face of a divided base? Yes, yes, yes. But none of that justifies “We’re going to let or help the literal fascists win.”
Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years. At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later. I’d rather choose no Nazis at all, and have the uncomfortable conversations needed to make that happen. Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.
Just so I’m clear, I’ve read chunks of Project 2025. My kids are on the chopping block. I am begging the democrats to do better than being diet Nazi.
You’re right, Pug, a billion dollars in direct spending was derailed by people pointing out the bad things they were seeing. It definitely wasn’t the bad things that cost her the election, just the people acknowledging that the bad things existed and suggesting she do something different. I forgot, if you’re in a car with someone who is about to drive or a cliff, the best thing you can do is remain quiet; you wouldn’t want to distract the driver with your negativity. Once again, Pug, your brilliant insights have saved the day.
So you don’t think that negative campaigning against a candidate has an effect on the electorate?
I think it’s not fucking magic, Pug. There was far more negative campaigning coming from the hundreds of millions spent by the Trump campaign. There was even more money spent by Harris to negatively campaign against Trump, for all the good it did. But leftists complaining online threw the election? Everyone needs to shut up and smile, because if they criticize the Democrats too loudly they’ll collapse? Is that where we’re at?
So?
There are millions of votes other than mine; it doesn’t mean that I’m not responsible for my vote, or my other actions.
No. But leftists playing negative PR games online contributed to the loss. I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t think they were the tipping point.
But neither was Iowa, yet everyone who voted for Trump or abstained in Iowa is a fucking contributor to the fascist regime.
Not being the deciding factor does not absolve you of the implications of your choices.
We were going into an election everyone knew was going to be close, against a literal fascist.
Maybe a little of the ‘United Front’ spirit would’ve been welcome, instead of playing the usual games of “Undermine the SHITLIBS” when there was a candidate promising fascism, with the necessary background to confirm his intentions as sincere, as the only other choice in the running. It’s not even a question of “I oppose all aid to Israel”, but “Harris is a genocide supporter!” The issue was not voicing policy concerns; it was attacking the less vile of the only two candidates who could win.
Tell me, if the election had been lost by a few dozen votes, instead of a touch under two million, would your response be different? Or would it still be “Beating the negative PR drum is Just My Opinion”?
Cant believe after all the messaging around this election that “Shut up, give me your vote, and get zero concessions” is still not attractive to people for some reason. I swear I heard it everywhere, from every blue maga shill and self aggrandizing liberal in the internet… but despite it saturating the narrative she still tanked. Strange how that works.
Fucking incredible how far you’ll go to blame everyone but the people responsible for the loss. Oh, did Harris’ shitty campaign cause widespread voter apathy? Don’t blame the campaign for that, blame the people who talked about it too openly. Oh, you wanted a, “United Front,” against Trump? Do you blame Harris for failing to unite the party behind her? You know, the fucking job of a leader? Nope, it’s the lefts fault for not falling in line.
Like, I don’t even know what to do with this anymore. You’re watching the Democratic coalition collapsed under the party’s mismanagement, and you’re blaming the coalition instead of party. Get a grip, Pug, FFS.