Thus speaks a person of privilege, who doesn’t really understand what “privilege” means. Class warfare does exist; that still doesn’t mean you’re entitled to help yourself to every community-generated resource without actually being a member of that community.
this is hardly a community event. Being a woman (or a man) doesn’t make you a member of a community by default (being a member in my opinion requires deliberate participation) plus this is a job fair sponsored by some of the biggest companies in US.
what if you don’t have a community? For example, a foreigner? Is it OK to alienate these people (an even weaker minority)?
In other words, I would agree if we were talking about the tech-bros with families worth 6 digits behind and huge networks they can leverage. However way more attributes are a determining factors than just gender.
First off, that job fair didn’t just spontaneously happen. It was thought up by, organized by, and run by women and enbys in tech, specifically to help women and enbys in tech. Those sponsors didn’t just miraculously happen; they were researched, approached, courted, their concerns addressed and their needs accommodated. And yes, that effort too was put in by women and enbys in tech, for other women and enbys in tech.
These are people with limited time and resources, who spent thirty years working on this, who carefully nurtured and shepherded the few resources they could gather, in order to create one single thing to help with their specific needs and challenges. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other groups with their own needs and challenges - foreigners who need accommodations for their visas and maybe cultural or language help, disabled people who need sign language interpreters or low-vision accommodations, people with issues like ADHD or major anxiety who need supportive environments and some guidance or handholding. There are lots of groups who can benefit from a job fair organized around their specific needs. The fact is, if you aren’t part of the group the fair is intended to help, you shouldn’t just show up, insert yourself into a place you were never invited, and take resources away from those who those resources were intended for.
And honestly, one of my frustrations is this: if you make a resource for … people living on Native American reservations, or blind or deaf people, or the mentally ill, or the homeless, or whomever, the resources generated get reserved for that community and no one blinks an eye. But as soon as a resource is designed to help women, there is an immediate and constant demand to expand that resource to other groups. The women and enbys who spent years and decades creating and nuturing this thing have the right to expend their limited time and energy creating resources that matter to them.
I’m highly sympathetic, but this thing didn’t go wrong in an instant. The organizers watched it go off the rails, and, AFAICT, didn’t intervene to fix it, as the problem revealed itself at scale.
Hard situations require hard thinking and decisive action.
I think this is the response that summarizes why someone would have an issue with this:
A class of men used their time and resources to build an old-boys-club to help each other. This is widely regarded as a bad thing. There are actual solutions that would address the underlying issue of special interests giving certain demographics an advantage, like anonymizing applications to circumvent discrimination and ensure the most qualified applicant gets the job regardless of demographic. Instead, the approach here is to make a new old-not-boys-club to give an advantage to different demographics.
That’s the issue here. The response to gender discrimination isn’t to take turns, it’s to eliminate unfair discrimination entirely.
That’s what leveling the playing field is, removing the unfair advantages. Like anonymizing applications.
As stated elsewhere, there are other hurdles besides gender Identity which obstruct applicants. Equality of opportunity by selectively advantaging demographics immediately devolves into absurdity. You have to accurately quantify the exact degree of historical disadvantage and precise proportionate counter-advantage for every demographic, normalized by demographic, and accurately combined to address intersectionality. Every attempt at which obviously creating ripples of advantage and disadvantage to infinitesimally complicate the calculus, not to mention how you even quantify any of these values accurately in the first place.
And you must do all of this, because otherwise you’re just making a new tier of privilege to join in on oppressing the minorities who slip through the cracks and don’t have advocacy groups to devote time and money to give them a helping hand.
Or, like I said, you could focus on stripping away existing advantages instead of starting new ones, so your efforts benefit everyone disadvantaged.
Anonymously applying doesn’t remove the unfair advantage. It barely scratches the surface. No one group can strip away advantage, so you’re left giving relatively small advantage to underprivileged demographics.
This is like someone who was born into money complaining about not getting welfare.
I can’t tell if your misunderstanding is unintentional or trolling. In the context of this conversation, the community I was referring to was the group of women and enbys who worked together for years to try to overcome some of the systemic issues facing women and enbys in tech.
Also, since you seem determined to give only brief one-liners in response, I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
My point was that I don’t feel being in a community with every man in existence, and likewise I see no point to limit a community to a specific gender, especially in this day and age. “We don’t know you, it’s the first time I see you” is a valid reason for not considering someone a part of a community (yet) on a fair presumably meant for already established members. “You’re a man, go away” just isn’t.
Also, since you seem determined to give only brief one-liners in response, I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
Quite a bold statement after a single reply from me. Did we have some similar interaction beforehand elsewhere? I usually don’t pay much attention to nicknames, so apologies if by chance it was a repeated occurrence.
Of course you don’t feel like you’re in community with every man, you’re not a fucking marginalized gender! Some of us have to have solidarity to survive.
This is the whole point of the fucking event in the first place! Y’all have to insert yourselves into literally everything don’t you? Unbelievably childish.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read and if you can’t see the miles of difference between a women-only job fair and lynching black people I don’t know what to tell you.
An actual example would be segregation of schools by race. White students had the better schools and education. So when segregation became illegal, it would be like a period where black students organized their own resources for catching up, their own space and time, etc. Now imagine they had just enough books/teachers for engaging those students. And then white students showed up and began using the books, asking for their own tutoring from the teachers, etc - leaving less for the students who were at a disadvantage to begin with. Then the white kids start crying when they are told they aren’t welcome in this space dedicated to leveling the field of knowledge.
In summary: Jesus fucking christ a job fair is not like lynching, you fucking wacko.
Asking white students to not take the resources that black students worked hard to provide for themselves after white students had the privilege of them all along? Yes. Yes it would be shitty of the white kids to show up and take those resources. Similar to how it’s shitty of men to take the resources that women worked to provide to other women in an attempt at making the industry more equal.
Thus speaks a person of privilege, who doesn’t really understand what “privilege” means. Class warfare does exist; that still doesn’t mean you’re entitled to help yourself to every community-generated resource without actually being a member of that community.
I personally agree with this, but:
In other words, I would agree if we were talking about the tech-bros with families worth 6 digits behind and huge networks they can leverage. However way more attributes are a determining factors than just gender.
First off, that job fair didn’t just spontaneously happen. It was thought up by, organized by, and run by women and enbys in tech, specifically to help women and enbys in tech. Those sponsors didn’t just miraculously happen; they were researched, approached, courted, their concerns addressed and their needs accommodated. And yes, that effort too was put in by women and enbys in tech, for other women and enbys in tech.
These are people with limited time and resources, who spent thirty years working on this, who carefully nurtured and shepherded the few resources they could gather, in order to create one single thing to help with their specific needs and challenges. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other groups with their own needs and challenges - foreigners who need accommodations for their visas and maybe cultural or language help, disabled people who need sign language interpreters or low-vision accommodations, people with issues like ADHD or major anxiety who need supportive environments and some guidance or handholding. There are lots of groups who can benefit from a job fair organized around their specific needs. The fact is, if you aren’t part of the group the fair is intended to help, you shouldn’t just show up, insert yourself into a place you were never invited, and take resources away from those who those resources were intended for.
And honestly, one of my frustrations is this: if you make a resource for … people living on Native American reservations, or blind or deaf people, or the mentally ill, or the homeless, or whomever, the resources generated get reserved for that community and no one blinks an eye. But as soon as a resource is designed to help women, there is an immediate and constant demand to expand that resource to other groups. The women and enbys who spent years and decades creating and nuturing this thing have the right to expend their limited time and energy creating resources that matter to them.
I’m highly sympathetic, but this thing didn’t go wrong in an instant. The organizers watched it go off the rails, and, AFAICT, didn’t intervene to fix it, as the problem revealed itself at scale.
Hard situations require hard thinking and decisive action.
I think this is the response that summarizes why someone would have an issue with this:
A class of men used their time and resources to build an old-boys-club to help each other. This is widely regarded as a bad thing. There are actual solutions that would address the underlying issue of special interests giving certain demographics an advantage, like anonymizing applications to circumvent discrimination and ensure the most qualified applicant gets the job regardless of demographic. Instead, the approach here is to make a new old-not-boys-club to give an advantage to different demographics.
That’s the issue here. The response to gender discrimination isn’t to take turns, it’s to eliminate unfair discrimination entirely.
That can’t be done without first leveling the playing field.
Yes, a level playing field is one where no one has an unfair advantage, not one where all the various unfair advantages balance out.
Not if there’s already an unfair advantage that has been introduced and can’t be shifted.
That’s what leveling the playing field is, removing the unfair advantages. Like anonymizing applications.
As stated elsewhere, there are other hurdles besides gender Identity which obstruct applicants. Equality of opportunity by selectively advantaging demographics immediately devolves into absurdity. You have to accurately quantify the exact degree of historical disadvantage and precise proportionate counter-advantage for every demographic, normalized by demographic, and accurately combined to address intersectionality. Every attempt at which obviously creating ripples of advantage and disadvantage to infinitesimally complicate the calculus, not to mention how you even quantify any of these values accurately in the first place.
And you must do all of this, because otherwise you’re just making a new tier of privilege to join in on oppressing the minorities who slip through the cracks and don’t have advocacy groups to devote time and money to give them a helping hand.
Or, like I said, you could focus on stripping away existing advantages instead of starting new ones, so your efforts benefit everyone disadvantaged.
Anonymously applying doesn’t remove the unfair advantage. It barely scratches the surface. No one group can strip away advantage, so you’re left giving relatively small advantage to underprivileged demographics.
This is like someone who was born into money complaining about not getting welfare.
Ah yes, my favorite community, a gender.
I can’t tell if your misunderstanding is unintentional or trolling. In the context of this conversation, the community I was referring to was the group of women and enbys who worked together for years to try to overcome some of the systemic issues facing women and enbys in tech.
Also, since you seem determined to give only brief one-liners in response, I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
Transgender women are overrepresented in tech. The event should be for females in order to properly address the real discrepancy at play.
My point was that I don’t feel being in a community with every man in existence, and likewise I see no point to limit a community to a specific gender, especially in this day and age. “We don’t know you, it’s the first time I see you” is a valid reason for not considering someone a part of a community (yet) on a fair presumably meant for already established members. “You’re a man, go away” just isn’t.
Quite a bold statement after a single reply from me. Did we have some similar interaction beforehand elsewhere? I usually don’t pay much attention to nicknames, so apologies if by chance it was a repeated occurrence.
Of course you don’t feel like you’re in community with every man, you’re not a fucking marginalized gender! Some of us have to have solidarity to survive.
This is the whole point of the fucking event in the first place! Y’all have to insert yourselves into literally everything don’t you? Unbelievably childish.
Lynching people based on their race is bad. I think we can all agree on that.
Once we make lynching illegal. Should there be a grace period, where people of the marginalized race are allowed to lynch people of the dominant race?
If lynching is bad, it should be bad for everybody, all the time.
I don’t see why discrimination based on gender has a different criteria.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read and if you can’t see the miles of difference between a women-only job fair and lynching black people I don’t know what to tell you.
An actual example would be segregation of schools by race. White students had the better schools and education. So when segregation became illegal, it would be like a period where black students organized their own resources for catching up, their own space and time, etc. Now imagine they had just enough books/teachers for engaging those students. And then white students showed up and began using the books, asking for their own tutoring from the teachers, etc - leaving less for the students who were at a disadvantage to begin with. Then the white kids start crying when they are told they aren’t welcome in this space dedicated to leveling the field of knowledge.
In summary: Jesus fucking christ a job fair is not like lynching, you fucking wacko.
In your segregation example, would reverse segregation be acceptable?
Asking white students to not take the resources that black students worked hard to provide for themselves after white students had the privilege of them all along? Yes. Yes it would be shitty of the white kids to show up and take those resources. Similar to how it’s shitty of men to take the resources that women worked to provide to other women in an attempt at making the industry more equal.