Too fucking late, maybe if no-path-to-win Warren didn’t stay in the primary race in 2020 we would of had sanders. But the democrats can’t run a primary without ratfucking it in favor of their corporate donors.
Did Biden not receive more votes than Sanders?
Biden did, but a big controversy is that the moderates all dropped out around the same time to rally around Biden, while Warren, the other major progressive in the race, stayed in just long enough to fuck Bernie’s chances. There’s definitely some… ill feeling still there.
I mean even if you add up Bernie AND Warren’s votes together, Biden was still well ahead.
You can’t judge primary races like that. The final spread is irrelevant because of how the votes are spread out. The media calls it long before half the country has even voted, then the remaining votes always avalanche to the presumed winner.
This kinda talk is the right kind, but at the wrong time.
We are well past the “You can vote fascism away” stage
Voting alone won’t do it. But please remember, Pinochet was voted out.
We need to support local organization and action, because without that, the vote is powerless under a fascist regime. But the vote, combined with strong popular institutions, remains powerful in all but the most withered of fascist states.
I hate to say this, but it’s too fucking late for any sort of electoral solution, at least on a national level. At this point we need to develop local capacity to secure our progressive enclaves in liberal states and big metropolitan areas. This means rooting out the conservative factions within our police and firing bad actors, as well as training community-based self-defense forces. We also need to build more effective local resilience and mutual aid networks so that the Federal government can’t dangle emergency aid over us when pandemics and climate-related disasters recur, as they frequently will. We need politicians who will defend our territory, boundaries and values, and fight to discontinue the tremendous subsidy we pay to MAGA territories. We need more self-sufficient economies that trade primarily with healthy, rights-respecting economies in Canada and Europe. It’s a heavy lift and unfortunately I don’t see anyone up to the task right now, as even Bernie, Warren, and AOC are stubborn institutionalists who will continue trying to work within the system even as it works against them and their constituents.
Bro, that state governments at local levels are as left leaning as they’ve ever been, yes they can be pushed more, but this theory of every Democrat being a corrupt neocon is laughable.
People who have built their entire career around attacking working and rigging the economy are not going to reverse their entire lives.
How many Dems voted against the Child Tax Credit Extension this?
How many Dems voted against protecting Union Pensions in the last 4 years?
Which candidate this year ran on funding for first time home buyers?
Nonsense!
Form your own party. Dump the useless liberals. Reconstitute the SPA and team up with the unions.
Unfortunately, Bernie will not be the one to lead that. Social Democrats fundamentally have to side with and cater to the bourgeoisie as they depend on Capitalism, unless you mean to advocate for a real revolutionary Socialist party. In the latter case, PSL already exists, and the DSA has powerful Marxist caucuses like Red Star and MUG that are close to gaining over 50% control of the party. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism if that appeals to you or anyone else.
You are aware of first past the post right? That really needs to be the first thing on your agenda to get fixed. Until then, the USA will ALWAYS be a two-party system (with brief blips in change over).
Correct, but it need not be these two parties.
Thats more of a step 2 or 3. Step 1 is that everybody needs to start putting pressure on the DNC and make sure they understand that we’re not going to take it anymore. And I’m not referring to that bullshit “not voting” rhetoric, because not voting is tantamount to voting republican.
Once the DNC is forced to listen to us plebs again, then it’ll be a good time to look at breaking out into more parties. But we need to put the fear of whomever they pray to in them first.
Yeah how’s that voting blue no matter who working for you? You still ended up with trump.
The reality of American political process is that it takes at least a billion dollars to run a Presidential campaign. (Thanks, SCOTUS) That kind of money doesn’t come from unions, social activists, or proletariat donors. It comes from corporations and billionaires, and those people don’t like revolution.
Until someone can demonstrate that you can get more votes with progressive, worker-friendly policy proposals than with a well funded propaganda machine, the DNC is going to keep chasing the less conservative billionaires. And no third party will even be relevant.
No, it takes a billion dollars to lose an election. Trump could of ran on a shoestring budget and he still would of won.
As long as the DNC is chasing billionaires, we have no second party.
I mean we very obviously do. We have two corporate oligarch parties, but I would much rather have the tech billionaire club that brought us the Gates foundation or the Allen institute and isn’t actively trying to kill a large portion of the country than the one that sees what Israel is doing to Palestine as a good model of how to clean up the riffraff
I mean we very obviously do.
No. We have a viable party that chases billionaires with credibility behind it, and the Democratic Party that chases billionaires while pretending that they are for working people, and kills their own viability because they have no credibility with either group.
As long as they chase billionaires, Democrats are not a viable second party. From a functional standpoint, we have only one party.
Does viable have a different definition for you that doesn’t include winning roughly half of elections?
The thing is, a message that’s simple, resonates, and allows people to blame others will always win out over a message calling people to pull their own weight and do the complicated but correct things.
Idk, Harris vastly outraised Trump (over $1B in 3 months) and it… didn’t move the needle.
Progressives need to distill their ideas down into smart, easily repeated ideas (Billionaire bad, union good) that can spread via social media, aren’t inflammatory (defund the police, etc), and aren’t based on fear and loathing but rather a message of hope.
Money doesn’t win the election, it’s more of an entrance fee, and campaign financing is more complicated than just ‘the campaign.’ You have to account for PACs, party, and all the free messaging from sympathetic media outlets. Bernie pinned his hopes on going viral on social media, and mostly demonstrated that it’s not a viable strategy, at least at the Presidential level. Might work OK for smaller races, like AOC, in a geographically small, relatively young district, but not nationally. Most people actively avoid political messaging, which is a fundamental problem if you plan to rely on organic distribution of a political message through social media. Especially social media controlled by billionaires that might be hostile to messages like ‘billionaires bad, unions good.’
We certainly agree on the broad strokes. I think part of the allure of the MAGA messaging was that it was often shared by a highly approachable racist that people were already comfortable with, so the political bits could just sorta be sprinkled in as needed alongside other ideas that people already agreed with.
If they really cared about “country over party” they’d vehemently support ranked choice voting at all levels of government and an end to gerrymandering. Even though the Democrats aren’t really extremists our political system will continue to prop up extreme views if everything is identity politics and there are only two you can choose from.
Step 1 is already done, and now institutional resistance from inside the party is the problem. So it is in fact time for step 2, there’s enough of a body of voters to start building it.
The trick is that to subsume the DNC in the next ten years or so, the party has to form a coalition with it for now while remaining separate. That could achieve two goals: first, put a lot of pressure on Republicans they aren’t ready for. Next, create a strong leftward tension that just isn’t represented right now and which the Democrats will be walled off from controlling.
It’s sort of what happened with the Tea Party / MAGA.
The dnc is never going to listen to the plebs because they only answer the money, and we don’t have it. As long as people keep participating in their game of electoral politics, nothing will change. Let them lose several elections in a row, and maybe they’ll see the light or fade off into obscurity, which is the preferred method.
Doubt we have two or three elections left in us.
Look, I’m right there with you and this defeatist feeling. You and me by ourselves can’t do shit. But guess what? There’s millions of us. And for decades it’s been beaten into our heads that we are powerless; that we are nothing because we are not rich.
There was a time where there was a group of people who were treated far worse than we’re being treated now. They had so much less than us, and got treated so much worse than us. Yet somehow, they fought back. And while they’re still fighting, they’ve made huge inroads with the status quo that it’s left its mark for the rest of time.
If they can do that, then the least we can do is scare the shit out of a bunch of idjits at the DNC.
I’m not feeling defeatist, things turned out exactly as I expected them too. And liberals punching left instead of right is also what I expected. The DNC can fall off the face of the earth and I would be ok with that. There’s only room for 1 right wing party in the country.
That’s what they did this election, and we got fascism and the DNC doesn’t matter anymore. So now what?
Yup. Call your Senators and tell them you have no faith in the party leadership, and that Chuck Shcumer cannot continue as Senate Minority Leader. If they’re up for reelection in the next two years, tell them you’re happy to support a primary challenger if it’s the only way to get change.
You know you can do more than pressure them, right? You can get involved with your state party, which in turn elects the leaders of the national party. You can vote in the primaries and kick out corporate Dems. We know this works because it’s precisely how the fascists took over the Republican party.
Why don’t we simply kill the DNC instead. And the RNC. Seems easier that way. And no I don’t mean mentally.
Yeah, because that ever works.
Revolution does work, historically, but the US needs more class awareness and working class militancy for that to be viable.
"Form your own party. "
Good luck with getting ballot access.
But no need to start from scratch - here’s a list of political parties in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States
Do a hostile takeover of the GOP instead. Many states don’t care why party you register as, and if they do just register as a Republican and vote in their primaries. Pick a socialist candidate and get them to run as a Republican, and vote for them. This is in essence what Trump did, but of course he did it for fascism and got Nazis to vote Republican. The same strategy can work for anyone else. This can start in safe blue states where no one votes in the GOP primaries and spread from there.
This is a far more realistic strategy because third parties are vulnerable to the spoiler effect and will always fail due to people being worried about electing Republicans.
I just don’t get why we’re not training and endorsing out the next group with all this press. Sanders and Warren need to back and/or start a coalition of progressive up-and-coming leaders that they can help hone and introduce to the larger political landscape while they have the energy and influence. They need to stop being the only torch bearers and start bringing in underlings. Idc if they follow them around like a posse, might actually be better if they did. I would cuddle with Sanders all night if I could, I’m just tired of his name being the only one catching attention. The will try to bury any movement with him when his time comes, best to get ahead of it so momentum can keep going.
Social Democrats will always cater to Liberals, because they both rest on the foundations of Capitalism. Social Democrats aren’t trying to disrupt the system, but prod it towards more safety nets. Even if they raised successors, they would face the same struggles, because the DNC can’t support itself without the blessing and support of the Bourgeoisie as their donors.
A truly destabilizing movement comes from outside the boundaries of the normal electoral system and depends on real, actual Worker Organization. That’s why it’s helpful to read theory. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism if that appeals to you or anyone else.
Sanders lost lots of clout when the dems slandered him as some kind of sexual predator.
Sanders has his squad but they’re still ineffective and bow down to the dems the second there’s any conflict.
I’m extremely disappointed in sanders for him not trying to prop up some ideological successors. He can’t keep going forever.
Warren lost any credibility in
20162020. She shattered her legacy as fully as Biden is draggin his own name through a river of shit now.You got the year wrong, 2020 is when she was a spoiler going into Super Tuesday.
Ah you’re right.
When she became a spoiler for Biden? Yeah…
It’s kind of scary to think that this man could literally die any day and there’ll be nobody to take his place.
They could have been doing this the whole time lol.
They are still tied to the DNC Party Line, so that’s why they haven’t. This is also why the DNC cannot and will never be a Worker Party, it’s organized like a business that sells policy to wealthy Capitalists.
How many Dems voted against the Child Tax Credit Extension this?
How many Dems voted against protecting Union Pensions in the last 4 years?
Which candidate this year ran on funding for first time home buyers?
Did any of those pass?
The original child tax credit passed when Biden had a majority, it failed this year.
Yes, Biden saved over 1.4m union pensions in 2021, when every Republican was against it.
And Kamala Harris did not get elected, so we’ll never know how the housing plan would’ve worked.
So you picked a hodge-podge of random policies, most of which don’t exist in any real capacity, to do what, exactly? Try to paint the DNC as a bottom-up Worker Party, and not the neoliberal party that exclusively serves its donors?
Moving the goal post again to fit your narrative. Ok
What goalpost? Legitimately, I have no idea what you’re even trying to say here.
Then we never would have heard of them.
We might have heard how they’re radicals, etc., before they disappeared.
Starting 40 years ago. They’ve been tripping over themselves to throat the Corporate dick for decades.
Warren can go fuck herself, She was one of several that backed out of the 2020 race to kneecap Bernie Because he was projected to win the Democrat nomination. People like Warren fucked all of us.
FWIW she actually didn’t back out with the moderate candidates before Super Tuesday. She did after splitting the progressive vote between her and Bernie, giving Biden the win.
I’m sorry but this is how I read your comment:
“How dare she run for President instead of letting the man take it.”
Going into Super Tuesday when conveniently all the moderates dropped out in favor of biden, she stayed in the race despite having no path to win and the only reason was to split the progressive vote away from sanders as a spoiler to guarantee biden the nomination since sanders was giving him a run for his money.
Funny how liberal shills flip the fuck out about third party voting in the general working as a spoiler yet resort to bullshit identity politics when their own act as spoilers.
She along with the DNC ratfucked the primary and delivered us an ineffectual and detestable biden/Harris which directly led to trump being re-elected. Fuck her.
But yeah it’s totally misogyny for why we hate her, not the fact that she colluded with the dnc to fuck sanders over once again.
The democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them.
Believe it or not, I share your anger toward the Democratic Party. I’m not registered Dem for that reason. I just don’t care to limit my blame to one individual and say “oh well, that’s the problem”. Because the problem is way way bigger than that.
Sanders was never going to win against the establishment candidate. No progressive candidate will, possibly not in our lifetimes and so saying things like “the democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them” is, quite honestly, pointless and not constructive. For one, we know that’s not universally true. For another, what are you going to do about it, in practical terms?
Let’s say that everything you state is true. What practical steps can you or I take to dislodge the DNC and put forth truly progressive candidates?
The answer to this question is precisely why, while I understand and share the anger, I don’t feel shouting into the void and laying blame is a good use of time. Because ultimately there is no revolution. There is no wholesale transformation of the system that happens in a short period of time, no matter how much we want to shake our fists and protest.
The only way to loosen the grip of the establishment parties is frustratingly slow, very incremental change. And that means blaming the DNC or anyone in the DNC and saying “well fuck them, I’m never voting for a Dem again” is counter-productive.
The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. The democrats ratfucked every primary that I can remember, they even tried to ratfuck 2008 in favor of Hillary but Obama was such a strong candidate that they failed.
You’re stuck in social democracy, I’m in direct action, unionization of the workplace and figuring out ways to undermine and overthrow capitalism. It’s only a matter of time before it collapses under its own weight but liberals and their apologists just throw their hands up and say it’s too hard. Electoralism does not work. Democracy died a long time ago, if it was ever really alive in this country.
I’m never voting democrat again. I don’t give a fuck.
"The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. "
Prove it.
“I’m in direct action”
I too am very special.
Edit to add:
Do you know how long people have been saying capitalism will collapse “any day now”. Do you know how many dictators have been elected by people like you simply because you didn’t “give a fuck”?
What you are doing is throwing up your hands and saying it’s too hard.
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Fuck you liberal trash.
Such nice civil discourse from you. Perhaps you should step away from the computer and calm down.
We have trump thanks to YOU
No YOUUUUU. The blame game is pointless here. It’s really, when it comes down to it, exactly why Republicans win elections. Good job!
Not everything is misogyny
She was never polling to win, by every matrices Bernie was projected to win, but the oligarchy couldn’t have a populist candidate win and preserve the status quo so they kneecapped him to shove Biden into the spotlight
She was never polling to win, by every matrices Bernie was projected to win, but the oligarchy couldn’t have a populist candidate win and preserve the status quo so they kneecapped him to shove Biden into the spotlight
How do you know?
You need to work on your reading comprehension, then.
You need to work on your writing skills. Nanner nanner or something
She split the vote by staying running against the best progressive voice of our time. Her selfishness is a direct cause of Biden being elected.
And in turn trump being reelected.
Hard to say that one. But I truly believe it. Similar to if Florida didn’t steal the presidency from Al Gore.
You can pretty much lay blame on anyone or anything because there’s absolutely no way to prove it one way or another. You might as well be saying Biden got elected because of the phase of the moon.
Are you claiming the spoiler effect doesn’t exist?
I’m claiming that people employ binary thinking and lay blame where the answer is just a wee bit more complex. Saying “Her selfishness is a direct cause of Biden being elected.” is flat-out ludicrous for all kinds of reasons, mainly that no one knows what would have happened if Bernie had been the candidate. Nobody’s even putting numbers on what “split the vote” even means. FFS.
And look, I voted for Bernie. I even wrote him in in 2020 (I’m in CA).
But the main reason I’m saying all this is that she had the right to run. It just comes across as incredibly shitty - AND exactly the same thinking that made HRC the candidate - to say “oh no, you there, you can’t run because it might split the vote”.
And that’s what many of us are tired of. This stupid noble sentiment where we jerk each other off about how we lost the right way, the honorable way. Because it just ignores pragmatic strategy and the fact that we lost. And when we lose, how does that help anyone? Congrats, SCOTUS stacked for generations.
The reality is we have a FPTP voting system. In such a system, two party control is all but guaranteed mathematically. It looks binary because IT IS BINARY.
It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not like you “win” the election across the board and get everything you could possibly want. And even if you did get a blue wave you STILL don’t get everything you want. Incredibly, it’s a big country with lots of different people with different ideas of how it should run. It’s a simple fact that among Dems most are not that progressive. Our political system is really a bunch of compromises where nobody gets everything they want but, ideally we all get something. What I’ve observed among many folks such as yourself is that you think you should get everything instantly. My speculation is that people who think like this are dealing with a shorter time scale because they are younger. That’s in no way a bad thing but it does mean you haven’t seen the tremendous change that’s happened or 4 or 5 decades. To me, things have improved dramatically and of the many things that stand out is the fact that I don’t have to worry about being beaten, raped, or murdered for being queer. I can be openly trans. I can even marry my lover.
I’m not saying I don’t want to see a viable third party or more truly progressive candidates. But this is a long game where slow incremental progress is assured even if on a much shorter time scale it seems nothing has happened. From my perspective while we still have a long way to go, we’ve made a lot of progress.
Too little too late.
Sanders has been trying this entire time. It’s not his fault the DNC won’t listen to him.
Good on Warren for saying this. I think that the attacks on Warren for staying in the 2020 primary were really overboard. She would have been a great candidate 🥲
No they weren’t.
Warren, along with the other candidates, colluded with the DNC to drop out en masse in favor of Biden. She, unlike Bernie, is a DNC card-carrying member who, despite her positive work and Progressive stance on Wall Street, played along with the machinations of the Democratic party. They ignored the will of the people.
If she had endorsed Sanders instead of accusing him of lying (second link), we might have had a different outcome. Moreover, Hillary implied he was sexist - a laughable accusation.
Warren lacked the convictions she needed when the time was right.
Hillary didn’t just imply he was sexist, she claimed (without proof) that he said that women were prone to rape fantasies
I’m surprised the “Bernie Bro.” thing stuck when “Obama Boy” didn’t
OMG a conspiracy by the DNC to elect an actual registered Democrat instead of an independent, how shocking /s
seriously, what did you expect?
Holy shit, you just mind blasted me with a memory I had lost. That whole shit show between Bernie and Warren during a debate where she acted all fluffed and pissed off because Bernie was apparently somekind of sexist?! or at least the media and her team tried to play it that way but it completely backfired if I remember right.
Yeah, that was the gist of it.
Sanders could have won every single vote cast for Warren and he’d still have lost the primary. Stop making up conspiracies and start recognizing that we need more people to vote for us.
I literally posted that with receipts. Enjoy your copium.
They just scream “conspiracy theorist” at everyone to their left because they can no longer pretend that we all want Trump to win. Wondered what was gonna replace “trumper!” as the go-to admission that they’re not listening and are out of touch on purpose.
Indeed, especially since they’re gonna rehabilitate Trump like they did with Bush
Nobody cares if you wanted Trump to win, you absolute knob. Whether you wanted to or not, you played a pivotal role in his win.
I would say it was unknowingly done, but I know for a fact that it was explained to you likely hundreds of times.
Shame on you.
You hold me solely responsible for millions of voters staying home. Look at you.
You can’t accept that genocide wasn’t as popular as you wanted it to be.
Your whole “Kamela did Genocide!” point is negated by the fact that Trump did so much worse… to the same people
Did I say solely?
Lol nobody has ever bought the “people who voted for Harris like genocide” shit. It’s so fucking lame.
The fact that you keep repeating it gives away the bad faith. Otherwise you would have an actual argument. Try harder next time.
None of your links refuted anything about how Warren’s endorsement would have changed anything, which is my statement. They didn’t even support your conspiracies, they just referenced events that non-believers and true believers don’t have any disagreement over. Just posting any old link is not “receipts”. Receipts actually support your statements.
“Here’s how Bernie could still win”
He’s not the one with the copium addiction bro.
That’s not what I said. Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.
She should have gotten the fuck out before super Tuesday.
Or ran in 2016 like Bernie asked her to do. But she sat it out because she wanted Clinton to run.
Do people still feel the bern?
the bernie bros have been out in force since the election shouting down anyone who disagrees with their vision of a populist party run by an old, out of touch white man. why does that sound familiar /s
I do. I never stopped.
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I did until seeing this headline 5 times a day for the past week.
Too late. This shit is done.
Funny how you’re getting downvoted, but this post saying the same thing isn’t.
Do better, Lemmy. Quit dogpiling; this isn’t Reddit.
If you make the exact same low content post a half hour after someone else, you’re probably going to catch some downvotes.
Well that’s because this post was made a half hour after the other post. Too little, too late to grab all of them sweet sweet fake internet points.
