Can we kill the Crowder format already? This guy sucks huge ass, stop pasting his face everywhere.
would be cool, yeah. I personally like the Calvin&Hobbes variation.
thats a good one :)
Change my mind then
The meme you posted has the subtext “I’m a rage baiting dumbass”. Not sure that’s what you intended. Crowder will regurgitate talking points for hours and will never consider changing his mind
Thats ironic. Rage bating dumbass fits your comment so well
Weird hill to die on but you do you I guess
As the saying goes: Weird hill to die on, but at least they died.
This one doesn’t depict a far right talking head
That was a hard one to make, especially the text.
There’s a system that has a wealth stat. When you want to buy something you roll for if you have the funds for it or not. It could be more fun to roll for ammo and once you roll out of ammo, you can’t use ranged for the rest of that encounter
If you want to do that, thats all that matters
The key is that we started by pushing against it and the DM didn’t listen and made us get to the hook of the content before deciding.
Because he didn’t listen when we started trying to ignore it, we had fun we wouldn’t have otherwise had had he stopped when it seemed like we weren’t going to have fun.
So what happened at the hook ? Did you guys continued with the rules ?
Counting ammo creates a vibe. There are tools to get at that vibe without as much hassle, but whatever tool you use, you should be relevant to gameplay.
There also comes a point in the game where the vibe is established, the characters have advanced and you don’t need the tool as much or anymore.
I played in a game called Trudvang where part of the experience was tracking everything using decreasing tracking dice. We kept pushing away from it at first, but our DM enforced it and we had a lot of fun for it. As we leveled up, the tracking was less relevant and the conflict more, so we shifted focus there.
I still remember meticulous food, water, and ammo tracking, desperate health, and having to hunt and forage to keep up stock despite risking troll attacks. We even had to sit down and talk out whether to allow rescued people into our party because we were low on resources and didn’t have much time left before an event.
Tracking ammo on its own is usually meh, but that part of the game tracking everything, while harrowed and desperate, pushing against a time limit? That sticks in my mind.
If you had fun, then it was right to do it. Simple as that
You probably also don´t want to count rations when its a fricking survival/exploration campaign, right?
Do you want to track rations ?
Or do you have a druid with goodberries that fixes it easily ?
You could also do a bit of game hunting.
Depends if you WANT to do it. If you have FUN doing so. If yes, then do it. If not, then don’t.
If youre stucked with a tight DM that doesnt care for your fun or your opinion, you can make a druid multiclass and never be bothered with it, ever.
Its all about if you want to.
Do you want to track rations ?
Yes its part of the game
Or do you have a druid with goodberries that fixes it easily ?
No such thing at our current level of play (needs a Level 3 Druid)
You could also do a bit of game hunting.
Subsisting via Hunting or Gathering is part of the games/campaign mechanic. So is Camp Management, Exploring regions, managing settlements and kingdoms.
If youre stucked with a tight DM that doesnt care for your fun or your opinion, you can make a druid multiclass and never be bothered with it, ever.
Or you know, its not just about you and your opinion but the entire tables. So either the entire table including the GM, they are not your adversary, comes up with a consens you can live with or you better find a new table that aligns with your expectations, or rather make your own.
If youre stucked with a tight DM
coming back to that. I am that GM and my players agreed to the terms and services and the pitch of the campaign beforehand. Thus we have no issues playing Pathfinder 2e’s Kingmaker Campaign.
So your players want to do it right ? They agree to it, they find it fun, and its not the equivalent of a stone in their shoe that they cant wait to get rid of, right ?
Yeah, but what is your fun factor here? It can get dire if they are running out of rations and cant find enough to subsist in the wild. Is that fun, or is that already unfun? Is having the fitting ammunition at hand fun or is it already unfun because you can run out of that resource?
Remember resource management in DnD (and Pathfinder) is a pretty big game mechanic. Be it Hitpoints, Spellslots, Spell-Like-Abilities, Carrying Capacities, or Ammunition and Food.
Thats the point. Thats the whole point my friend. Its only a good thing if you like having it in your game. Its not about encounter balance or rules when it comes to ammunition, only if it enhances your fun or deteriorates it.
Restrictions can be fun, but make sure they actually are when using them.
It’s not too hard to keep track of in Shadowrun, and running out of ammo can lead to tense moments. Especially since you’re gonna be using a multitude of types, depending on what you make. Like you’re not carrying around hundreds of rockets for a missile launcher on your person. But you might have a few hundred+ round magazines for an SMG or rifle, as well as a side arm. Limiting how often you can blow shit up, but generous with the small arms that can still clear a room in a turn or two.
DM makes these calls. Pure and simple. Players who don’t want ammo to be tracked can DM and do it that way.
Seriously. It sucks that this is apparently a controversial opinion, but:
The DM is also playing the game, and their fun matters just as much as anyone else’s.
Please explain to me the fun factor of limiting arrows for the DM then ? Because from a fellow DM’s perspective, it looks like a sucky way to artificially enhance difficulty to players rather than making it fun for anyone.
Thats like a DM refusing to level up your players because mid and high level encounters are harder to plan.
One time, my high level party whoop my ass when Insent them many wyverns. Did I debuffed them ? No. I changed which monsters to use instead.
Monster Hunter is fun because you have to prep to take down a monster. Preparation and managing supplies is fun.
I guess I have a two part answer.
Firstly, why don’t all video games give you unlimited ammo with no need to reload? Because that’s part of the game. You may not like it, and you can have a good game without it, but that doesn’t mean there’s no value to it for certain people looking for a certain experience.
Secondly… you don’t really have to understand it. It’s a matter of personal preference. It doesn’t affect you even a little bit that other people enjoy a different kind of game. When I care about inventory, I use a slot-based system, but if someone decides to track the weight of everything… whatever, that’s their decision. No one’s obligated to play with any particular DM, and no DM is obligated to run a game they don’t want to run.
As for the rest of your comment, I’m not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand. But anyway:
Thats like a DM refusing to level up your players because mid and high level encounters are harder to plan.
That’s literally what Wizards of the Coast does. The game is completely broken at higher levels, so they just avoid creating campaigns that go up that high. And if a DM prefers to run lower-level games… so what? It’s valid. And even though you don’t need permission to run that kind of game, the rules explicitly break down character levels into “tiers of play.”
One time, my high level party whoop my ass when Insent them many wyverns. Did I debuffed them ? No. I changed which monsters to use instead.
Sure, the CR system is notoriously broken. It’s another reason why it’s a pain to run 5e. It shouldn’t surprise you that it’s something I dislike about 5e, because, again, I think DMs should have fun, too.
Its all about choice then ? What makes the game fun and what is a hassle some if not most groups tend to skip over.
My point is not dont count ammo. My point is that you only should count ammo if the players likes it.
Doom Eternal would be just as fun with or without ammo restrictions (with the exception of the BFG) but most importantly having the option to toggle as you please is important. Having just the option of playing without counting ammo would suck.
Thats what some games did with lives. Mario Odissey made lives secondary, and in crash bandicoot 4 they actually give you the choice which I found marvelous.
Hah. Nah, I dont like most WotC campaigns. I prefer to write my own. Which Im doing with level 13 party players at the moment. I doubt WotC would be able to handle it correctly. I tried a few of their campaigns, both as a player and DM and I wasnt impressed. They have big glaring holes while focusing on useless shit. Looking at you, candlekeep mysteries.
But thats my point. Do it IF you have fun doing it. Not because its in the game, or because the DM wants to. But because you the player wants to. Options are always great.
Doom Eternal would be way less fun with no ammunition, not trying to be insulting but you really don’t know much about game design. Doom Eternal, very specifically, uses ammunition to encourage a specific play style the game is built around.
Wait a fucking second. They did it ! They did gave infinite ammo and other cheats IN THE GAME. It does change stuff around, and its an option you can take once you complete a level. So yeah, Doom Eternal with infinite ammo is both something that exists legit and fun.
Again, and I cannot stress this enough: my main point is that the DM is also playing the game. They’re not obligated to run the kind of game they don’t want to run.
If you don’t want to play in a game where you track ammo, that’s fine. By the same token, the DM isn’t obligated to play with you, so they don’t have to change their game to suit your tastes—or anyone’s. If the DM and players are willing to compromise on some things, great. If they aren’t, and that means a game doesn’t happen, so it goes.
The feeling I got from your comments—feel free to correct me—is that you think the DM should put their own enjoyment aside to just do what the players want. That’s my issue. The DM isn’t a servant, in the same way they aren’t a social superior. To return to my first comment, they’re just another player at the table, albeit in a different role, whose enjoyment matters just as much as anyone else’s.
I wouldnt take away the DM’s fun. Ever. He is very important.
Now you tell me how is it fun for the DM to make players count their ammo please.
I already did. It’s the experience they want to create at the table. Just like how lots of video games track ammo. That is a completely sufficient answer.
Why does it bother you so much that DMs who would never run a game for you are running those games a certain way? It’s hard to believe you actually value the DM’s fun, when the DM running a game that makes them happy causes you such confusion and consternation.
A major issue with 5e is that it breeds players who are very bad for the space. They think DMs are secondary (at best) or just have no idea how a game actually works. It might just be because it’s popular, but i do think some of their scummy practices (like splitting up all the books) contribute to it.
Preach. It’s an attitude from top to bottom, from WotC to an unfortunate number of players.
People complain about a DM shortage, and that is a purely 5e problem. Outside of 5e, you’ve got lots of people eager to run games, because running a game isn’t as difficult and thankless.
This isnt convincing. This is how a 5 years old deals with a table. My way or the highway ? It sucks for everyone but the tyrant.
I see it quite the opposite. Its the child who does not want to do the part that gets to make the call but then still wants to make a call. Its a game. Play. don’t play. run. don’t run.
So basically players should never have an opinion on the table they are part of ? They should never say : i do not like this. Or : I do not find this fun.
They should just shut up and always say yes ?
A game isnt only what the DM decides or prepare. A good table is a cooperative experience where EVERYONE contributes to some degree. Its a cooperative experience.
sure. players can make suggestions but the dm decides. thats just how it works. also with something as silly as ammo a player do is not wild about it can easily make a build that does not have to worry about it.
So basically, you would prefer to keep a rule that everyone dodge by switching character rather than forgetting about it to allow your players to play what they prefer ?
How about this. How about a table where people that would want to track it do it, and thoses that dont… dont ? What is the worst that can happen from that ?
Players, in my experience, never want to accept an increase in difficulty—but they also get bored when things are too easy. The DM’s job is to create problems to solve, not let the players do whatever they want.
Obviously if nobody in the group wants to track arrows, they shouldn’t have to, but not tracking ammo because it’s tedious is like not tracking spell slots or Channel Divinity for the same reason. Scarcity is a balance consideration.
The differences between spell slots and ammo is that you cannot have 30 spell slots on you at level 1, running out of spell slots is expected because you have so few of them, making tracking them easier since it actually matters, and you cannot buy your way into more easily just like that.
They are both resources, but dont go and say that an arrow is worth a spell slot.
You also cannot get spell slots back by tediously scourging the battlefield or looting basic as fuck soldiers.
And we come back to this question : what is the WORST SHIT to happen to a game if you remove the coubting of normal arrows and simply give everyon an infinite quiver that cannot be sold for gold ?
Because up to now, nobody came with a decent answer to this. Im still waiting.
that is what happens already its just the dm of that table is the one making the final call or not I guess if you guys have a dm that just does everything by consensus. the way rpgs work though is the dm decides what rules to use and how to implement them using as much or as little player input as they feel like.
But you didnt answered me. I asked : what would happen if some would track ammo and some dont in the same party ?
You are that DM and your players ask you this. What do you say ?
Limitations enhance fun, that said I’m against that level of book keeping. For special ammo yes, but running out of normal ammo is best saved for just a botch or crit fail
