Gaetz said they should focus on domestic issues instead, like republicans care about domestic issues
He also said Russia should join NATO. He’s a smart one!
Does he not know that NATO was created to counter the threat of the USSR?
deleted by creator
54% of American adults read below a 6th grade comprehension level.
So there’s a good chance the answer is ‘No’.
And after the USSR collapsed, there was a real hope that we could integrate Russia into the Western system. But ultimately we could never have that because Russia is the main antagonist for Europe.
Without Russia as a threat there is very little reason for EU to bow down to American supremacy. So instead of NATO getting smaller after Russia became a shell of its former self, the alliance got bigger.
In 1991, Russia told NATO it wanted to join.
Yeah that’s what their propaganda says. In fact there was never any application, or even a serious discussion about it.
I am now picturing a drunk Boris Yeltsin saying that to Bush senior followed by “I love you man”
I wonder if circumstances were entirely different in 1991. Probably not.
Ribbit
Is forcing women to give birth a domestic issue?
Yes tax cuts for the wealthy
Oh and don’t forget about oppressing women. That’s a huge domestic priority for them!
Who are the ones fighting for biological men to be allowed to win all the women’s sports, scholarships, awards, and use women’s safe spaces again?
Removed by mod
Are you just as worried about biological women possibly winning men’s sports, scholarships, awards and using men’s safe spaces?
Because you didn’t mention that…
That doesn’t happen. Name 1 trans man that has won a sporting event over a biological male.
And yes, I do think that trans men should not have access to male “safe spaces”, if such a thing exists. I didn’t mention trans men because it’s not an issue. Women’s sports exist exactly because biological women can’t compete with biological men on a physical level.
Removed by mod
Name one trans woman who has beaten all the biological women in a sporting event.
You’re not serious are you?
Austin Killips ( https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/65456752 )
Na Hwa-rin ( https://www.ibtimes.com/trans-cyclist-wins-female-race-prove-biological-men-are-physically-superior-women-3705095 )
Emily Bridges, Lilly Chant ( https://reduxx.info/biological-males-take-top-2-spots-in-inclusive-womens-cycling-division/ )
Lia Thomas ( https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/sports/lia-thomas-swimmer-wins.html )
Do you need more? That was literally just recent cycling results and 1 swimmer.
Here is an article with 23 trans women who have won national or international championships against biological women:
So it will never be an issue? Can you be sure of that?
Why are you using single anecdote examples as if they’re universal?
Biological women beating biological men more than a tiny fraction of a percent of the time in any physical related sports? Yes, I can be sure of that. That’s literally why womens sports exists in the first place - because it would be unfair for them to compete with men.
Did you know that the NFL isn’t a male football league? It’s actually open to all sexes. Women can play in the NFL. There has never been a woman make an NFL team. Same with many big sporting leagues. One woman, Lauren Silberman, actually got a tryout as a kicker a few years back:
https://thefootballusa.com/female-players-in-nfl
Want to see how it went?
That’s not a physical sport where you’re literally competing against other people. That’s an individual sport, one that women tend to have an advantage in.
Nobody?
They’re not lying. Domestic issues, as in lining their pockets. Cutting their taxes and the rich. Getting bribe money. You know. Domestic issues. How is sending money to Ukraine benefitting them? It’s not. Domestic issues are more important.
You know. Domestic issues like whatever the fuck “wokeism” is. Hearing the goddamn speaker of the house say “wokeism” over and over is so fucking cringe. It’s all theater for the base.
Nationalists only have domestic issues. Their xenophobia prevents them from caring to interact with anything beyond their borders except to fight it.
TBF he is brain dead
Removed by mod
Republicans control the House.
However, when the Dems did recently control the House, they managed to pass the infrastructure act, and the inflation reduction act, two huge pieces of domestic legislation.
When the Rs had the House, Senate, and White House from 2016-18, they refused to pass any kind of infrastructure act, despite that being one of the cornerstones of the Trump campaign. The only thing they really did was pass a tax cut for the wealthiest Americans that raised taxes in the middle class and increased the deficit.
Now that you mention it, what ever happened to infrastructure week that Trump promised back in 2017?
Same thing that happened with every Trump promise that would have made positive social change, they were lies.
deleted by creator
😂 Here in Australia I’m what you’d consider left leaning. I’m all for gay marriage, equal rights, anti-war, and so on. I’ve literally never voted “far right” or “conservative”. Not once in my 20+ years of voting.
But sure, pretend that the democrats aren’t left wing because….reasons.
Btw the second you accuse others of being brainwashed just because you disagree with them, you’re the extreme one in the conversation.
deleted by creator
funds the military which is traditionally a right wing and not left wing American position
I’m just curious - would you have been in favor of cutting aid to Ukraine? If so, this is the best confirmation of horseshoe theory I’ve ever seen.
If Republicans gain control of the US government I doubt they’ll stop sending weapons to Ukraine. Their ties with US weapons manufacturers run too deep. They’ll just pretend they supported Ukraine all along.
That imo is very different from the left who sees arms shipments just leading to more death and destruction than would occur otherwise.
So the republicans will keep sending guns, while the democrats are the ones that are already sending all the guns and money, yet the left are against it because it leads to death and destruction? What?
deleted by creator
-
I didn’t call you conservative
-
I don’t believe as single word you said in your first paragraph
They should do everything they can to stop fighting ASAP including a surrender to the Russian forces if necessary
-
Go fuck yourself tankie.
-
Tens of thousands of taxes from any individual or family does not go towards the war supplies being sent to Ukraine. Unless you’re a multimillionaire - which you are not.
-
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
A government that intervenes to stop a strike on the side of a monopoly corporation because the workers are vital to the economy is not left wing. Rainbow corporatocracy is still corporatocracy and your attempt to erase 3/4ths of the political spectrum by charwcterizing neoliberalism as “left” is laughable.
Kinda? I mean at least by European standards Democrats are kinda conservative. Not necessarily right wing, but also not left.
send “all the money”? That alone tells me you have no understanding of American aid to Ukraine, both in scale and in nature. It’s neither “all” nor is it “money” - the Americans sent old military hardware for the most part, and the monetary value is barely a drop in the bucket compared just to their yearly military expenditure that they’d spend regardless. Actual monetary support is much more of a EU thing anyways.
But sure keep whining about centre-right policies of the USA and the EU, calling them “far-left”. Actual far-left people tend to not supportive of sending aid to Ukraine.
We’re sending old military equipment to Ukraine, and that equipment was specifically made in case we have to fight Russia one day. So it’s pretty much being used for its original intent.
and the monetary value is barely a drop in the bucket compared just to their yearly military expenditure that they’d spend regardless.
So because we already waste tons of money, it’s wrong to want to stop wasting money?
It’s kind of crazy to see someone who clearly loves their own voice, but clearly doesn’t understand what the fuck they’re talking about.
Back to the kiddie pool, Nazi.
Please follow rule 3
You’re… Probably right. Glad you guys are on top of this.
Removed by mod
homeless criminal hell holes that at are places like San Francisco and LA.
Have you ever been to either city? Because that is not in any way a fair description. Anyway, don’t people like you usually use Chicago for this sort of aspersion?
Anyway, don’t people like you usually use Chicago for this sort of aspersion?
Nah, that’s for when they want to mix some anti-black racist dogwhistling in, too.
It’s common Republican lingo to refer to California, and anywhere wherein, as a “hellhole”.
Despite never having set foot in California, or they’d realize how much of a shithole the place they live in is in comparison.
deleted by creator
People are literally just walking out of stores with stolen goods at will. People are doing drugs on the streets out in the open. People are breaking into cars in broad daylight.
Are these things not happening despite all the video evidence and new articles about it happening?
Got it. You’ve never actually been there. Maybe don’t base all the things you know about a city from YouTube videos.
Go look at where and how that money is being spent. I think you will find that the vast majority of it isn’t leaving America. American businesses who already do business with the American government will do a little bit more, sending consumables and other assets to Ukraine. From an economic standpoint this is little different than a 10% increase in the American military budget, with the bonus of no expectation that it will be the new baseline going forward.
From an economic standpoint this is little different than a 10% increase in the American military budget
Is that supposed to be a selling point?
No, just pointing out that even though the military support is going to Ukraine, the economic benefits are still primarily American, which belies the excuse for why they don’t want to support Ukraine.
If you consider further bloating military spending to be a benefit, sure
Reread my original comment. And this is probably the last thing you want to cut. Leaving allies twisting in the wind when you pushed for nuclear deproliferation with the assurance you would help protect them from their enemies (Russia in particular) will cost America far more that $100 billion.
Do elaborate on how some backwater eastern Europe shithole would cost us hundreds of billions as a inept paper tiger wastes resources on it.
A 10% increase on the biggest part of your budget by far is a ridiculous increase.
Giving a trillion dollars to businesses with no oversight is also a ridiculous expendititure, but also 10 times more than this and happily supported by the Republicans. Or the tens of trillions spent in the Middle East over the last couple decades. This relatively minor expense is cheap political good will with a massive ROI.
Giving a trillion dollars to businesses with no oversight is also a ridiculous expendititure, but also 10 times more than this and happily supported by the Republicans.
That’s not funding a proxy war though. Kinda different.
Sometimes the only options are war or capitulation. I guess if Ukraine had just stopped…existing…next to Russia this could have all been avoided. How foolish of them.
Those aren’t the options available to America though. America wouldn’t be “capitulating” by not sending $100bil along with weapons and military vehicles to ukraine.
Removed by mod
Never thought conservatives would be in putins pocket, but here we are.
If you ever have time, compare the things the american right is proposing with the things that get passed into the russian law. The overlap is actually surprising, just instead of “traditional western values” it’s “traditional slavic values”.
…Really? Republican and Russian kleptocrat values align perfectly, so why wouldn’t they be allies?
If you lived long enough, and heard the “Kill the Commies!” comments coming from them, you’d understand why.
Except Russia hasn’t been communist for three decades, and is in fact exactly the opposite.
I know, and that wouldn’t stop them.
It really infuriates me when Americans try to claim Russia is communist. The Soviet Union fell in 1989. What do you think that means exactly, you fucking idiots?
Yup. US is the Russia of the Americas.
Ever wonder why Republicans spent July 4th in Russia?
Removed by mod
There goes my hope this stuff stayed on reddit.
How many times do republicans have to be caught taking money from Russia and working with actual Russian officials before you’ll accept that it’s a real issue?
Any examples? Genuinely curious.
Rand Paul and some other senators hand delivered a note to Putin on July 4.
what
deleted by creator
When they are actually caught.
If this was more than a political scheme and they were actually in Putins pocket then the FBI would have busted their asses, not let them go about their day handling poltical affairs. They would go all out McCarthy on them, especially if the evidence was so overwhelming as you suggest.
All this is just manufacturing of consent to keep you in line with the two party system.
Bruh, you’re in the Politcs lemmy…what did you expect?
Not politics reddit I guess.
But point taken, for the sake of my sanity I’ll remove myself from this community
Never thought liberals would be pro-war, but here we are.
I’m pro “defend yourself from an invasion.” Why aren’t you?
“yourself”
Yeah, fuck the French for helping the colonies fight off the Brits. Everyone knows they should’ve just let them crush that little rebellion
Ok so how about them Russians when they lost the most lives in WW2 for the Allies to win?
Before the USSR joined the allies, they signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. As part of that pact, they also agreed to jointly invade and occupy Poland, spreading their respective sphere of influence.
Yes they USSR did eventually join the ally cause, but only after getting stabbed in the back by the Nazis. The Nazi were now the enemy of both the allies and the USSR. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if only temporary.
This is historical revisionism. What the fuck do you mean EVENTUALLY joined the ally cause??? The soviets did absolutely everything they could to try and convince France and the UK to take action against Hitler but they were hoping Hitler would attack the USSR.
The ACTUAL historic timeline is like this:
1: The United States Bourgeoisie bankrolled the rise of fascism in Europe.
2: The bourgeois leaders of England, France, Poland, Finland and other Western European nations either ignored, enabled, or appeased Hitler’s worst behavior in the buildup to WW2.
3: The bourgeois leaders of these countries, England in particular, pushed for disastrous bilateral security arrangements which created a domino effect leading to war, while ignoring the USSR’s suggestion of collective, anti-fascist security arrangements.
4: The bourgeois leaders of these countries pursued a policy not of containing fascist aggression, but of diplomatically isolating the USSR, in the hopes that Hitler would go East and carry out an anti-communist genocide on their behalf.
5: The bourgeois leaders of these countries, having ignored or stalled collective security proposals from the USSR, actively made bilateral non-aggression pacts with Hitler before Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed, making the USSR the last in a long line of nations to sign non-aggression pacts with Hitler, after the USSR’s collective security proposals fell through.
6: The USSR only signed Molotov-Ribbentrop to buy time. The USSR only invaded East Poland to prevent a German front from forming right at the Soviet border. This is because attempts to make mutual security arrangements with Poland fell through. The Soviets only moved into the region after the existing government had literally fled the country, leaving it ungoverned. 2 million jews in eastern poland were saved from the nazis by this action.
7: The USSR tried to purchase a strategic corridor of land from Finland that the nazis could easily use to invade the USSR. The USSR not only wanted to legally purchase this land from Finland, but to trade Finland more acres of land in exchange. i.e. an asymmetrical trade that would have ultimately benefited Finland. Finland refused because the fascist leadership of Finland wanted to see Germany invade the USSR through this strategic corridor. This led directly to the Winter War. The Finnish lost the winter war but used their intelligence that they gathered during it to collaborate with the nazis.
8: When the North Atlantic allies finally teamed up with USSR after their strategy of appeasing Hitler backfired, they immediately attempted to make asymmetrical security arrangements that would have obligated the USSR to commit far more troops and resources to the war than any other ally, essentially using the USSR as a shield against the very fascist powers they had spent the better part of a decade appeasing. The British in particular kept stalling on arrangements and pretending to be confused.
9: When the war was over the North Atlantic allies, led by the USA, who came out of the war richer than any other country on Earth, immediately committed to rehabilitating nazis, blaming the USSR, who was decimated by the war, for causing the war, and created NATO to begin encircling the USSR, 6 years before the creation of the Warsaw pact.
10: The North Atlantic allies immediately set to using the Marshall plan to rebuild the fascist German, Italian, and Japanese economies, indebting them to the United States, and orienting them towards anti-communist policy.
11: The North Atlantic allies to tried to use the Marshall plan as a proto-IMF to privatize and deregulate the economy of the war-torn USSR, and open it up to foreign capital. That the USSR rejected this was framed as aggression and used as a justification for beginning the cold war.
But hey, don’t just take my word for it, or this rough outline of what is contained in well regarded books (I implore you to read some). How about we read Albert Einstein’s words spoken at the time these events actually occurred?
A lot to unpack in this speech but the basics of what Einstein says are:
-
The USSR made all efforts to stop the war happening.
-
The western powers(UK, France, US, etc) shut the USSR out of European discussions and betrayed Czechoslovakia.
-
Molotov-Ribbentrop was an unhappy last resort that they were driven to, that the western powers were attempting to drive the nazis into attacking the USSR and that’s why they would not help the USSR stop them.
-
The USSR supported everyone while the other powers (UK, France, US, etc) strengthened the nazis and Japanese.
-
deleted by creator
The fuck does that have anything to do with my comment? Lmao
Maybe you’ve always been able to defend yourself without anyone coming to your aid, but believe it or not, it’s quite helpful.
I’ve been sold bullshit wars for decades. You can not sell it to me. This is not the way I’m sorry.
What part of Russia invading their territory is bullshit exactly?
Removed by mod
Never thought conservatives would be against a small country fighting for their freedom and join hands with our cold-war enemy. How patriotic of them.
In case you missed it, the cold war was fucking stupid. Furthermore I would argue that the US’s bad behavior at home and abroad ramped up MASSIVELY once they didn’t have a counterbalancing superpower they had to take seriously.
It is fucking wild that libs have in like the last 5 years or so all become cold war nuts that act like it was good. 10 years ago it was universally regarded as an incredibly dangerous farce that never should have happened and yet now the libs have all turned into rabid hawkish nationalists that spew red scare and cold war propaganda completely uncritically. I even see them spewing literal actual nazi propaganda these days that used to be regarded as loony and still is in historic academia at least.
I’m in no manner against ukraine fighting. My problem is with the US spending money on it.
Your against selling old stockpiles we are never going to use for the original sticker value? I mean Elon pretty much spent the same amount we have lend leased to Ukraine to buy Twitter…
It’s not even that much money making the whole situation more funny for the second greatest military in the world.
Source: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
Your against selling old stockpiles we are never going to use for the original sticker value?
As if were ever getting paid for them. This isn’t cash & carry. The overwhelming majority of what we’ve sent has been on our own dime. And to that end, yes. I don’t support giving away shit that still work because that means replacements are needed. Quite expensive replacements, usually.
I mean Elon pretty much spent the same amount we have lend leased to Ukraine to buy Twitter…
…OK? That’s not really an argument for increased spending. He’s free to make whatever dumb financial decisions he wants.
I couldn’t care less which corrupt Eastern European government is the legitimate sovereign over eastern Ukraine. What difference does it make? Is it worth the hundreds of thousands of dead young men? Or the food insecurity crisis in the global south? The worldwide inflation?
People have been tricked into thinking enriching the pockets of Lockheed Martin & Co is somehow helping freedom and democracy.
Don’t get it twisted, that’s why we’re in Ukraine. It’s primary purpose is a mainline IV injection of cash straight into the military industrial complex. Hundreds of billions. Meanwhile we struggle for years to give a handout to the American people.
It’s a joke, I feel like we live in a parody movie sometimes.
See, I’d try to create an argument against you, but it’s utterly pointless. If I link to a news story highlighting genocidal actions by Russia, you’d say it was propaganda. I show you a first person photo or video of the situation, you’d say it’s staged and fake. I link a Russia Today article where a high ranking administrator at RT says Russia should drown Ukrainian children, you either don’t respond or you call it fake and offer no supporting argument for it.
The Ukrainian War has become a litmus test of sorts. It shows you who’s actually capable of critical thought and evaluating dynamic situations, and who’s just as blinded by propaganda as the people they condemn.
You may think you’re the former, but consider how people aren’t bothering to genuinely argue and discuss with you because you seem like you’d just reject any evidence which contradicted your worldview.
Well said!
So what exactly is your endgame here then? If you believe that the Russians are simply genocidal and want to ethnically cleanse everyone in Ukraine (who is ironically exactly the same ethnicity as they are), then how do you see the war ending? The complete and total destruction of the Russian state? If that’s not what you believe then this use of “genocide” is soft holocaust denial and extremely dangerous.
Everyone needs to sit around a table and negotiate to end this. And that’s likely going to need to involve Ukraine giving up something and Russia giving up something, in order for both sides to walk away from this with some way to look like they won. I don’t understand why you think that’s impossible, it was literally happening before Boris Johnson stopped it.
Criminals break into your home and these appeasers would have you negotiate with them and give them half your stuff. More weapons for Ukraine until they can stop every last invader.
This is just bloodthirsty nationalism. And completely detached from reality.
A few things – for one, nothing is stopping Ukraine from negotiations with Russia. It’s their choice, and I support whatever they decide. No other country should be interceding on their behalf. It would be incredibly patronizing, imperialistic, and confirm Putin’s flawed casus belli that Ukraine has no true sovereignty. Now, if Ukraine were to directly ask the US or other countries to negotiate for them, that’s a different story.
Genocide is the appropriate term to use here. The atrocities in Mariupol speak for themselves. Additionally, Putin’s speech before the invasion insisted that Ukraine was historically Russian territory and that Ukraine had no strong independent cultural identity. Finally, Russia has kidnapped Ukrainian children – and freely admitted to it. Administrators in RT have suggested drowning the children. All of these fall under genocide: indiscriminate civilian violence and mass graves in Mariupol, insisting Ukraine has no true culture nor national identity or sovereignty, and kidnapping Ukrainian children.
As for the endgame, how the war ends, and what should happen to Russia – I don’t know. I truly don’t. I strongly value the notion of sovereignty and that countries deserve to have self determination. Any resolution must respect that, and since Russia is denying that Ukraine should have that, I don’t see an easy end to the war. The Russian invasion force being repelled back into Russia is the most likely situation I think, which ends up causing the end of Putin’s regime, one way or another. And personally, I don’t think Donbas or Crimea or etc should be bargaining chips in a negotiation either. After the war, all Ukrainian and Russia soldiers need to retreat from the areas, while UN peacekeepers observe the vote for independence from Ukraine. I would support whatever was decided.
Not to mention, if Russia walks away with a benefit from the war, it rewards them for their invasion. That cannot be the case.
Genocide is the appropriate term to use here. The atrocities in Mariupol speak for themselves.
No it’s fucking not. The word genocide was created in the 50s as a response to the holocaust. It was invented to create a specific method of opposition to ethnic cleansing. The misuse of it by liberals who clearly have no idea what it means or how important it is to victims of the shoah helps holocaust deniers by diluting its meaning, hence why you are a soft holocaust denier in your misuse of it. I STRONGLY urge you to look up Raphael Lemkin who coined it, and its origins.
Atrocities are atrocities. Horrible things that happen. But genocide is VERY specific and refers to the aim to annihilate an ethnicity and we MUST keep that meaning to be sure that legislation we have won in the past preventing genocides does not become diluted to the point that this legislation gets removed for its antiquation.
Finally, Russia has kidnapped Ukrainian children – and freely admitted to it.
This is one of those things that’s a mess. Moving children out of the fighting zone was objectively necessary. Would you prefer they not have been? What this has done however is create a narrative that can be used to maintain the “genocide” bullshit because it’s a pivotal pillar of the mindset liberals need to be kept in to maintain their support for the war.
Put it this way. If you did not believe genocide was occurring, then you would immediately have to reckon with the fact that the sooner this war stops the sooner people stop dying. It’s the cornerstone on which liberals maintain their hawkish support for more bloodshed, by convincing themselves they’re opposing a genocide by doing it they can maintain the belief that these hundreds of thousands of people would be killed by the Russians anyway if they did not fight.
This is nonsense of course. The war started in 2014, and Russia didn’t want anything to do with Donbas then. Ukraine had no army in 2014, when Russia took Crimea and could happily of taken Donbas without opposition. Ukraine having literally zero army back then is the reason the volunteer nazi battallions of Azov and Right Sector were the frontline against the Donbas rebellions at that time. Had Russia wanted this land, or to do genocide (for what purpose?) then would have been the time to do it. Instead what they engaged in was attempts to keep it Ukrainian while giving some political independence to the region (something like a devolved government, similar to Scotland as being part of the UK but also governing itself). They spent 8 years pursuing that before the war. You’ve read the Minsk agreements right?
You’re the only person who has left me a real message challenging anything. I’m more than willing to talk all day.
Russia is a brutal authoritarian state who is willing to do almost anything. But the fact is the life of an Eastern Ukrainian citizen will not appreciably change if they are ruled by Russia or Ukraine.
If there is no difference, then what are we doing this for? Killing hundreds of thousands, displacing millions, starving Africa, twisting the knife on the lower classes of the entire world… etc
All of this so Lockheed Martin’s stock goes up. I think it’s amazing they’ve effectively convinced a lot of people that war = good. That we should want more war.
Do you know about the atrocities at Mariupol?
Do you mean besides destroying the city?
Unfortunately, the Republican senators mentioned also have a very hard time allocating funds to programs that help Americans too.
Yep. In the US you are given two options. One is trash and the other is worse.
I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Trump and the other Republicunt politicians who bow down to him. For whatever reason he has determined being anti-war is politically advantageous.
Which might work out for him. Inflation & instability & war aren’t great sales points for a presidential election. Biden’s numbers jumped for a little bit after the invasion but people will get fatigued with an endless stalemate. And worse, if Ukraine loses we essentially threw away hundreds of billions.
High stakes game our politicians are playing being so hard and loose with money
I don’t think thats fair. I think the idea is that a dictatorship invading a democracy in eastern europe is something the free world can’t allow to happen, same way they couldn’t if Iran invaded The Netherlands, and this is why all of europe and the US are helping them defend themselves.
Not sure how you could get “pro-war” from that.
You don’t think thats fair…
Have you read the first comment in this thread?
They claim the richest chunk of the political establishment of the richest country on the planet with the most roided up intelligence/military apparatus in human history is in the pocket of the arch enemy of said country and said intelligence behemoth
Compared to that every statement is resonable. Arguing nuances while ignoring the ignorance of the premise is past the borders on ridiculousness.
ah, I see what you’re getting at
Russia is much less a dictatorship than USA… The ‘free world’ caused unimaginably more suffering, death, and injustice in the world than Russia ever has. Sending weapons in support of Kiev regime (yes, it’s a regime by definition) only prolongs the suffering of people, both Ukrainian and Russian.
Russia cannot lose this war. If faced with an actual prospect of being defeated (which is not realistic in any capacity) it would employ nuclear weapons, which would be disastrous for us all! So west is really only gambling on prolonging the conflict to destabilize EU, hurt Russia’s resources, and in the process destroy entire generations of Ukrainians.
The lesson to be learned from WWII is that appeasement of land-hungry countries is not a solution for long term world peace. Because of Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler’s annexation of the Sudetenland and Austria, Hitler learned that the world would simply let him take whatever he wanted if he bared his teeth.
Putin views the fall of the USSR with bitterness, and wants to bring the USSR back. From his prior incursions into Chechnya and Crimea, he had learned that he could take whatever territory he wanted and the world would turn a blind eye out of fear of starting a larger conflict. He had hoped that Trump would be reelected, reducing the likelihood of a united West against this offensive he had been planning for years.
So, he had plans to take Moldova after Ukraine. He expected Ukraine’s inexperienced, ex-actor president to flee like Hamid Karzai when his forces made a beeline for Kyiv. Instead, Zelenskyy stood his ground, lead the defense of Ukraine, and marshalled materiel support from NATO. Ukraine is choosing to fiercely defend itself; even if pacifists who want to minimize total casualties were to get the US and NATO to cease all support for Ukraine, “allowing” it to be overrun, there would be no speedy end to the conflict. And then, even if Russia were to claim all of Ukraine, the bloodshed would not stop there, as he would continue to take former USSR member states.
even if pacifists who want to minimize total casualties were to get the US and NATO to cease all support for Ukraine
Don’t call people who want to let Putin profit from his warmongering “pacifists”.
Pacifism is the cowardice to defend oneself.
That isn’t entirely true, imho. I live by the motto “Hope for peace, but prepare for war”.
Yeah, best to appease countries like the US who don’t officially take land, but will invade, overthrow, or fund opposition if you do not do what they say. It’s funny to be seeing the grandstanding of Americans and the world coming together to moralize about Russia. Where was all this during the 20 years of Iraq? Apparently the biggest bully on the playground gets to dictate what’s right.
No, you’re completely right. Other countries should’ve denounced the US for Iraq. But the fact that that didn’t happen doesn’t mean Russia gets a pass here too.
Absolutely, Russia is 100% wrong for invading Ukraine and it should be denounced and countered. I just find it interesting how strongly people feel about one invasion over another.
Putin is (quite contrary to western MSM-taught propaganda) a very pragmatic and laid-back leader, moreso than most if not all of the western leaders. He was never known for making rash or risky decisions. The Russo-Ukrainian war was forced by the west, Putin never wanted it to happen, but he damn sure prepared for the eventuality.
Pragmatic? Sure. No risky decisions? Get outta here. Only reason he was elected in the first place is because he orchestrated a false flag terrorist attack.
Laid back? Craziest part of your post. Russian leaders have to be like Stalin to survive. Paranoid and ruthless. He is the furthest thing from laid back.
Any evidence for that or are you simply taking russophobic nonsense at face value?
This has to be a joke commentand no one is recognizing it. Right?
Generally speaking, if you’re the invading party in a war, you were not forced into it.
Generally speaking yes but it’s a nuanced thing. For example Japan was more or less forced to attack the US in WW2. US was aware of this when they cut off oil to Japan. They were essentially forcing the issue - declaring a war unofficially. They fully expected some attack from Japan at some point in the near future.
Japan’s war machinery was focused in Asia - they didn’t want to go to war with the West. But to keep feeding their growing industrial base they needed resources… and all the good resources in the region were controlled by the European powers. In order to keep pushing forward in China, they needed to take Dutch/British/French territory in SE Asia. If they attacked one, they knew they would be at war with all. So they just sneak attacked all hoping that the American/European will to fight wouldn’t be as strong as theirs. Just like the way they won their war against Russia at the start of the 20th century. Unfortunately for them, the US was more than willing to fight and die for control over the Pacific.
Ukraine v Russia is a bit different, though. I view it as an independence war starting in 2014 from the Euromaiden protests. Ukraine was firmly in Russian sphere - and it has been for hundreds of years. As soon as they want to pivot away from Russia with the coup in 2014, Russians come and annex Crimea. Then of course we have the slow 8 year fighting in the Donbas which eventually led to all-out war.
Russia cannot win this war. Even if they used nukes.
I think you know this.
Why do you think US is giving more and more military aid if Russia has no chance of winning? For example before they wouldn’t give tanks - that was a red line. Then we sent tanks.
Then we wouldn’t send airplanes - then we did.
Now we’re sending cluster bombs and uranium ammunition, something that’s akin to using chemical weapons.
Why? The situation is getting increasingly tense. This war could last a long time but the support from the West will not last forever. And by the “West” we mean the USA. That’s where overwhelming majority of the aid comes from.
Trump wins in 2024 and goodbye Ukraine ggwp. Russia just has to hold the line and eventually they’ll annex Crimea + Donbas + Donetsk
And if they’re lucky maybe Odessa
What exactly makes you think Russia couldn’t win?
GDP.
The same reason General Popov was dismissed then attacked by state media. The same reason Prigozhin encountered minor resistance on his march to Moscow.
Morale is low, stockpiles are depleted and industry is decimated, partially by sanctions and partially by mobilization.
Russia is using WWII tactics with cold war era equipment. Thousands of artillery pieces don’t mean a whole lot if you can’t put counter-battery fire on a HIMARS. Thousands of mobiks aren’t going to be effective if they don’t have modern training and equipment. Russia wasted hundreds of guided missiles on residential targets with no strategic value in the middle of a war.
The war is already lost. The only question now is how many more Russians have to die on Ukrainian soil before Putin starts to care.
I don’t know where you get your info from, but morale in Russia is at an all-time high after the total defeat of Ukrainian offensive.
And talking about ‘cold war era equipment’ is frankly silly… Do you call Ka-52s, Krasnopols, Lancets, etc. cold war era equipment? This Russian hardware has been proven the real gamechanger on the battlefield, decimating Ukrainian armored formations relentlessly. But you are right about one thing, the war has definitely been lost, though by the West.
I know you are either a troll or a tankie, but it invite you to look up the winning record of Russian presidents in elections. The last time the will of the people ousted a leader from power was the the Czar. Not very democratic.
The US is by no means a perfect country and the United States elections process has many issues, but Russian elections are a joke.
That’s what the western propaganda machine has been telling you. All western-backed polls paint a different picture, Putin is loved by Russian people.
No, I am going off the opinions of Russians I talk to. Yes, Putin is popular, but not to the extent that elections will tell you. Also, no one who has a chance of winning is allow to run. Many Russians don’t feel comfortable expressing honest opinions on social media.
Removed by mod
Putinland will ceace to exist if the retards in control don’t realise that using nuclear weapons is a dumb idea. Putinland is run by maffia that have their boot on the Russian populations neck. The rest of the world simply can’t allow those criminals to spread their terror beyond their borders. Democracy has to be defended, or we stand to loose it. Which would be bad for humanity as a whole. If Putinland would be a democracy, they would not have tried to invade a neighbour.
Russians have existed since before 1000ac and the ‘free world’ is here for about 200 years really. Well not counting usa, which did crazy shit to natives, but was inactive outside its own borders mostly. Who you consider the ‘free world countries’ actually?
Who you consider the ‘free world countries’ actually?
If you can walk into a crowded space in a country and shout “Fuck [Country] and [Country’s Leader],” go home safely that day, and your life doesn’t change whatsoever over the next couple weeks, it’s a “free world” country.
And in those 200 years the West used two nuclear bombs to kill or maim hundreds of thousands of mainly women and children, for example. Nothing that Russia ever did even remotely compares to that.
I guess we are talking only russian foreign affairs and not what /russians/ did to other nationalities inside russia? In that case yes, probably not as many civilian casulties from Russians compared to that 250k in japan in hiroshima and nagasaki from americans. If we do take into account domestic affairs, Stalin’s 20mil always wins :)
Stalin’s ‘20 million’ are a joke, no real historian ever believes those phantasmal numbers. It’s like you believe that Germans with their KZ industry were mere amateurs. 🤦🏼♂️
Lol, ok sure, if you say so.
Doesn’t sound like you thought a lot about very much, considering your comment is an obvious disingenous strawman.
Responding to myself. I don’t actually believe what I wrote, I just wanted to point out reductive statements are are easy to make and maybe too broad a brush for an entire group. It is possible to oppose the US funding of this war without being in Putin’s pocket. What about the nine democrats who either voted against military aid or failed to vote?
Yes, it is possible to be a moron in congress, there’s a reason they’re called representatives.
Morons representing morons. LOL
How long till we find out at least 50 of them have accepted money or gifts from rich and powerful Russians? I’m guessing at most 2 weeks.
How long until they face any consequences for it. I’m guessing never.
They are all Russian agents, because they are Republicans, and the party has been compromised since Reagan.
At least 20 years after the last of them retires.
I hope that the FBI already has some investigations for bribery from Russia with their names in the dossier
Wtf is with the massive influx of right wing losers/ troll farm accounts on this thread. I’ve never seen this many on lemmy before
It’s a fantastic honeypot. I blocked a couple dozen trolls and went about my day to a cleaner Lemmy experience. 👍
school is out so the edgy teens need a place to congregate
tldr - its exactly the people you expect
For anyone who doesn’t want to visit the site:
Babin Balderson Banks Bean (FL) Biggs Bilirakis Bishop (NC) |Boebert Brecheen Burchett Burgess Burlison Cammack Carl Cline Cloud Collins Comer Crane Davidson Donalds | Duncan Ezell Fallon Finstad Fischbach Franklin, C. Scott Fry Fulcher Gaetz Good (VA) Gooden (TX) Gosar Greene (GA) Hageman Harshbarger Hern Houchin Hunt Jackson (TX) Johnson (LA) Jordan Joyce (PA) LaMalfa Luna Luttrell Mann Massie McClain Meuser Miller (IL) Miller (WV) Mills Moolenaar Mooney Moore (AL) Nehls Norman Ogles Perry Reschenthaler Rosendale ROY Self Stauber Steube Tiffany Van Drew Weber (TX) Williams (TX)
Matt Gaetz has Butthead’s face and Beavis’ hair.
Gaetz looks like Jack Nicholson with a chromosomal deletion syndrome.
Jack Nicholson if he was from Whoville.
Say it the right way:
These are the 70 treasonous House Republicans who are in the pocket of Putin.
My entire life republicans have done nothing but evil, and they will never stop getting votes. I will go to my grave not understanding.
Aren’t they usually pro war? Isn’t that aid helping the military industrial complex?
They’re anti whatever democrats are doing
Not just Democrats. Anyone who isn’t part of their particular tribe, including most of the GOP.
Welcome to politics. You think the democrats aren’t just anti-whatever-the-republicans-try-to-do?
I’m honestly surprised that seemingly everyone in here supports funding the Ukraine war over looking after the American people. As an Australian I’d be livid if we were sending all our money to Ukraine or any other country when we’re in the midst of a cost of living crisis, with interest rates skyrocketing, and with a looming recession.
I’m honestly surprised that seemingly everyone in here supports funding the Ukraine war over looking after the American people.
But that’s just it. It’s not one or the other. US wouldn’t have invested the funds going to Ukraine in health care or any other social welfare direction. That budget is a military budget.
US mentality is what keeps investments out of social welfare, not lack of resources. Even with the Ukrainian aid, there are enough resources to invest in infrastructure & welfare, there just isn’t any political will to do so.
And, of course, you should also see that supporting Ukraine is in the advantage of the American people long term. It’s basically a long term investment. Having a strong stable Europe without the constant threat from Russia is very good for business. Not to mention that when this war ends, there’s a 40 million people country which needs rebuilding and there is a lot of money to be made from that.
All our money
Nice hyperbole.
How many tens or even hundreds of billions shave you sent to Ukraine so far?
Is that all the money?
Yeh definitely. Every last cent.
Look at you trying to “akshually” it as if it make any difference lol. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars.
The facts don’t align with your hyperbole. Also, while that’s a lot of zeros, it’s about 1% of America’s expenditures in 2022.
If you want a real discussion don’t say things like “all the money”. How about using some facts instead
Its not hundreds. Pulling numbers out of the void to prove a point… Come on. And even hundreds is not much by the modern standards. Not to mention that Ukraine will have to pay some of it back. As well as russia, once they capitulate. In fact, amount of russian assets that was arrested is MORE than was spent to help Ukraine. Which is NOT a bad deed by itself (crazy that this needs to be repeated).
You have a poor understanding of American politics.
No, I understand how politics work. You clearly don’t. Go back and look at almost every vote and you’ll see the tally almost entirely along party lines.
Democrats go against republican proposals, republicans go against democrat proposals. This is politics 101. It’s not just a republican thing, and suggesting it is shows just how far down the democrat rabbit hole you are.
You understand politics the way a 4 year old understands hide and seek.
You’re absolutely right that democrats are performative opposition as well. I remember when Obama was telling Romney that the cold war has been over for a long while. Here’s a clip for anyone who has forgotten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1409sXBleg
Then the parties switched opinions on the issue, but you’ll find that the vast majority of both parties will vote towards the same overarching geopolitical goals. There’s a grand script, and although democrats and republicans differ on a number of things, they will not deviate from this grand script. Of course, people here would instead rather argue about the amount of money being sent or “ackshully it’s just equipment” or “ackshully they’re just loans they’ll pay back” but they miss the big picture and would rather just mass downvotes.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=T1409sXBleg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Of course, people here would instead rather argue about the amount of money being sent or “ackshully it’s just equipment” or “ackshully they’re just loans they’ll pay back” but they miss the big picture and would rather just mass downvotes.
Quickly finding out that Lemmy is no different from reddit in terms of political bias, just one giant “vote blue no matter who” party.
I am from this vodka state so I may be biased, but as I see it, some republicans don’t really care about this issue and pick that position only to be contrarian and farm votes on ‘anything against dems’-train. They aren’t clever, really. Russia does benefit from it and probably encourage that with it’s money, but for republicans it’s not about Ukraine, Russia or anything, it’s about owning the dems and getting into the office. And some of them probe even this edgy position.
That money is going to a democracy to fight Russia, a white nationalist oligarchy. They want Russia to win.
They are, that’s why the majority of them are in favor of it. However the individual official might get more Russian money than corporate sponsorship and flip their vote to go against the larger group. Also, kompromat can be even more impactful than bribery.
deleted by creator
These Rs would be all for military support if it were going to Moscow
deleted by creator
They are pro-war. But also pro-ruzzia.
Removed by mod
Of course PA is on the list. The backwards ass hicks of my state.
Ohioan here- Not even remotely surprised. Outside of the normal, ya know- “fuck you” “no, fuck you” Ohio/PA shit, I really feel like western PA has turned into northern WV. PA is a beautiful state populated almost entirely by assholes.
Go browns.
GO BROWNS
Goooooooo Brownsssss
Remember folks: Glory to Ukraine 🇺🇦 Putin must held responsible for his crimes
how many votes to keep the aid?
358, of which there are 209 dem and 149 rep votes.
Majority (218). 435-70 morons - 20 contingency votes = more than enough (for now) to keep the aid alive.
While I appreciate the progress we’ve made in diminishing Russia’s warfare capabilities through this proxy war, I believe it’s time for us to take a step back and allow other countries to assume responsibility for the financial burden.
Considering the significance of this conflict, the remaining nations in the free world should be willing to provide ongoing support. It’s not sustainable for our country to continuously fund every European conflict. I’d prrefer we avoid becoming a quasi-imperialist state where we exert control over the rest of the world, and instead empower our allies to take on greater autonomy and responsibility.
This shouldn’t really be a controversial take, but positions like this usually just get downed down under all the low effort “dumb republican” or “dumb liberal” comments. I really hope as a platform we don’t turn into the same toxic place as r/politics and actually take an iota of time to better understand opposing viewpoints before reading some super biased headline and start generalizing.
