Service people: “I hate when customers stiff me on a tip or leave a really lousy one.”
Me: “Ok, let’s eliminate/discourage tipping then and just factor a percentage increase into the item prices on the menu instead.”
Service people: “No way, I’ll make less money that way!”
You can’t win, man. I’ve tried to argue with them before. They get one table in a blue moon with added gratuity plus somebody who tips really well on top and they don’t want to let that go. Bartenders are especially contentious about giving up tipping because whale drunks subsidize their entire paycheck.
Essentially, they want all the upside of guilting people into leaving a bigger tip without the downside of occasionally getting somebody who decided that the price on the menu is exactly what they’re going to pay when the bill comes.
Seriously. If you ever want to reconsider your job, ask a waitress how much they make (when they’re not on the job). I was an ugly overweight nerd and still made about $30/hr averaged over the week, working as a part-time uni student. It’s some of the best short-term money someone can make without a degree or connections.
Doubt. Unless you were working at a high end place or a really high traffic place.
Best I ever hit was 12/hour, which sure. Over minimum, but not over what minimum should’ve been at the time. And for the most part it was like 9/hour. Still over minimum but previous point still stands.
Current minimum wage should be slightly under what you’re claiming you made, based on inflation and such. So to fix the tipping problem is a two point issue, raising minimum wage to reflect an appropriate wage based on inflation since inception, and then removing the minimum wage nonsense for tipped employees.
You people that keep claiming they’ll make less with this change is what helps keep this nonsense in pepertuity. It makes the employees think that the employers are the ones that are actually helping them by giving this deal. And painting the customers as the enemy.
The real enemy is corporate. Worker wages haven’t raised since Reagan, but upper management wages have gone through the roof. Because they just pay a modest amount to Congress to keep worker wages stagnant so they can reap huge profits, and then they perpetuate class nonsense like your spewing to keep the target off of their back and onto your neighbors.
My hourly pay as a waiter was nearly doubled that of my first corporate job in the same city. Granted, it was fine dining.
Still worth the switch. The job was soul crushing and the 2nd shift, underachiever drug culture wears thin. Everyone should wait tables for a year. Nobody should wait tables for 10 years.
Sounds like you were a bad waiter or at the very least worked at a slow restaurant. I worked evenings and bar tended once a week at a national chain that rhymes with Boutack working in the evenings in a college town about 25 hours a week. I said nothing else about minimum wage, etc. so I won’t respond to the rest of your comment but I’ll tell you that no one wants to keep tipping culture more than servers
And you know what’s the worst part. It’s the owner refusing to pay him proper wages that forces this tipping culture in the first place. It’s absolutely atrocious and we shouldn’t even be responsible for making sure they get a living wage. That should always be up to the owner
The owner will 100% always raise wages versus just pack up shop and go out of business entirely if forced. But not out of the goodness of their heart lol.
Yep. California pays their servers the state minimum wage of $15 an hour. They still get tips, and basically no restaurants went out of business when they “suddenly had to pay minimum wage.”
And to the few that did go out of business, I don’t have much sympathy. If you’re unable to run your business in such a way they you make money while paying minimum wage to your employees, go find another job because you weren’t very good at running a restaurant.
If you want to protest the owner’s business model then boycott businesses that have tips. But refusing to tip at a tipped business is still giving 100℅ of your money to the owner, supporting their business, and leaving the employees out to dry. It’s not morally righteous, it’s cheap.
For the downvoters: Any argument against this? He’s clearly right, if you patronize the restaraunt they still get paid and they still don’t have to pay the server shit. “Not tipping” that person didn’t change the culture, it didn’t even hurt the business, the business responsible for this shit to begin with, who got their money. Our only recourse is then to A) Stop eating out all together until the industry collapses and rebuilds tipless, or B) Only go to “no tip” restaraunts if there are any in your area. Any of this half-assed “well the industry needs to just change but I’m not going to do my part to help, I’m just gonna piss off servers and do nothing” bullshit won’t accomplish anything.
Servers want the status quo because they make more money expecting the rest of us to pay 20-30% markup as a tip with the risk of getting stiffed from time to time. Let them demand whatever they feel is a compensatory wage for their time just like the rest of us. They were fine when the scales tipped their way.
IMO servers sold themselves down the river because it allowed them to make more money than back of house staff. Now that everyone is getting tired of this shit it’s the responsibility of the customer to negotiate them a better position? Laughable.
As someone that worked the kitchen and made less than servers while doing as much if not more work, hard pass. Servers are just mad people are getting tired of this shit and they can’t easily double or triple what the person that actually made the food makes.
There’s a difference between “responsibility” and “reality.” Should politicians for instance vote to give themselves term limits and stem their own insider trading? Yes. But if you expect that to happen, “wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first.”
Similarly, should servers fight for higher wages? Yes. But in reality they have no power in this situation, the customers have more. Even if they unionized, you’re arguing here for crossing the picket lines and continuing to support those struck businesses who then make money to hire scabbers, and wondering why nothing is changing. Even if you’re right and all this falls on servers to magically fix, you’re still then part of the problem. You’d arguably be even more of a problem then.
You may not want to make personal sacrifices to change a system that you want changed, but anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice, it just is what it is.
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server. If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers. Instead servers like the status quo because they make more money by culturally shaming people into donating to them.
they have no power in this situation
Quit. Find better employment. Go be a cook, though they don’t usually make as much as servers despite actually making the food. Funny how that works.
anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice
Just not by the server though right? It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server.
I did, I was chased out by people like you not tipping, so you did win on that one, even though I’m the only one who suffered for it, the business is doing just fine. Congrats, if your goal was to make it so that I could barely afford rent and food you did a good job, now get to work on making the poor sap who took my place suffer until he quits, and then the one who’ll take his place, and the one who’ll take his…
If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers
Like have you order off a touchscreen? As long as they’re able to find a way to make money off of you they will, and the corporations will just cut out the already thin human element, it’ll be a screen at the table and foodrunners at applebees type shitholes. Most mom and pop places will either just close or become counter service style restaraunts with no servers, like how they run Chipotle. Some will raise prices and try, and hopefully make it, but only time can tell. Of course you’d have fine dining actually pay employees well because they can afford to and their customers can take the price hike and an air of exclusivity to being served by a human rather than a machine.
It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
Well, no, I suppose not. If you want restaraunts to not just all be mcdonalds and chipotle clones, then you can continue patronizing them undermining the efforts of servers who do quit, or would theoretically unionize, and there would be no “consequences” from this as you’re in support of souless corporate food giants and counter service only. If however you did want servers then yes, as the restaraunts source of income you would then share in the responsibility in participating in a boycott as they do in either quitting or striking.
I just think it’s crazy that people believe if Steve owns Steve’s Place and Dan works as a server, hurting Dan to spite Steve while still paying Steve the price he requested does anything lmao. It doesn’t and never will. Dan may quit and Cheryl will take his place, then it’ll just be the counter with Bob behind it handing you your card that says “65,” then “Screen” will take his place and the cook will just start yelling “SIXTY FIVE” and having you grab it, don’t forget forks, they’re next to the vending machine.
Funny you assume I don’t tip. I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit. Which is why I know how much more things cost because of tipping. The problem is instead of it being a bonus for quality of service, its become the expectation to make up for the fact that servers choose not to throw their lot in with the rest of the staff and argue for living wages collectively.
Servers have been privileged with making 2-3x more such that the idea of making what the kitchen staff does is seen as being abused. You just don’t want to accept that the employer abuses you, and instead you abuse the customer with your expectations of having them supplement the poor wage you took expecting the customer will make up for it. Meanwhile the kitchen staff has always been abused but you didn’t mind because you got yours. Maybe work together and demand a better lot?
And here’s the scenario you didn’t care to consider. You quit, they don’t get servers because they don’t pay well, and the business shuts down making room for another that can try again with a better model. Dan can seek an employer that doesn’t treat him as a slave to minimize their costs, and Steve can choose to serve food himself or pay someone appropriately to do the work or close up shop. None of which relies on an expectation of a tip because the wage increase you collectively bargained for is baked into the price. So then when a tip is deserved it can be given, but there is no expectation of 20% for refilling my water at a buffet that I served myself at, or less.
I appreciate the discussion, hope you have a good day bud.
Exactly, additionally isn’t the entire appeal of tipping because you will on average attain more and higher tips by being better at your job? How can people not see that it inherently means your paycheck will fluctuate, it may be higher or even lower than last weeks.
Servers should be paid fairly, and they arent in a lot of places right now but that doesnt mean they should feel entitled to x percentage of the bill every single time.
Whale drunks, I watched a bar tender at a concert make a killing on tips because most people use a credit card and the payment process gives you only so many options, easy to click options besides no tip. 18-22% tip on top on drinks that cost 3 times more than they should. When I use cash and buy drinks you get a dollar if that from me, less than ,10% tip.
Service people: “I hate when customers stiff me on a tip or leave a really lousy one.”
Me: “Ok, let’s eliminate/discourage tipping then and just factor a percentage increase into the item prices on the menu instead.”
Service people: “No way, I’ll make less money that way!”
You can’t win, man. I’ve tried to argue with them before. They get one table in a blue moon with added gratuity plus somebody who tips really well on top and they don’t want to let that go. Bartenders are especially contentious about giving up tipping because whale drunks subsidize their entire paycheck.
Essentially, they want all the upside of guilting people into leaving a bigger tip without the downside of occasionally getting somebody who decided that the price on the menu is exactly what they’re going to pay when the bill comes.
Seriously. If you ever want to reconsider your job, ask a waitress how much they make (when they’re not on the job). I was an ugly overweight nerd and still made about $30/hr averaged over the week, working as a part-time uni student. It’s some of the best short-term money someone can make without a degree or connections.
Doubt. Unless you were working at a high end place or a really high traffic place.
Best I ever hit was 12/hour, which sure. Over minimum, but not over what minimum should’ve been at the time. And for the most part it was like 9/hour. Still over minimum but previous point still stands.
Current minimum wage should be slightly under what you’re claiming you made, based on inflation and such. So to fix the tipping problem is a two point issue, raising minimum wage to reflect an appropriate wage based on inflation since inception, and then removing the minimum wage nonsense for tipped employees.
You people that keep claiming they’ll make less with this change is what helps keep this nonsense in pepertuity. It makes the employees think that the employers are the ones that are actually helping them by giving this deal. And painting the customers as the enemy.
The real enemy is corporate. Worker wages haven’t raised since Reagan, but upper management wages have gone through the roof. Because they just pay a modest amount to Congress to keep worker wages stagnant so they can reap huge profits, and then they perpetuate class nonsense like your spewing to keep the target off of their back and onto your neighbors.
You’d probably make more in big cities and less in smaller suburban/rural areas. Tipping is a way of perpetuating the urban/rural wealth gap.
My hourly pay as a waiter was nearly doubled that of my first corporate job in the same city. Granted, it was fine dining.
Still worth the switch. The job was soul crushing and the 2nd shift, underachiever drug culture wears thin. Everyone should wait tables for a year. Nobody should wait tables for 10 years.
Sounds like you were a bad waiter or at the very least worked at a slow restaurant. I worked evenings and bar tended once a week at a national chain that rhymes with Boutack working in the evenings in a college town about 25 hours a week. I said nothing else about minimum wage, etc. so I won’t respond to the rest of your comment but I’ll tell you that no one wants to keep tipping culture more than servers
And you know what’s the worst part. It’s the owner refusing to pay him proper wages that forces this tipping culture in the first place. It’s absolutely atrocious and we shouldn’t even be responsible for making sure they get a living wage. That should always be up to the owner
The owner will 100% always raise wages versus just pack up shop and go out of business entirely if forced. But not out of the goodness of their heart lol.
Yep. California pays their servers the state minimum wage of $15 an hour. They still get tips, and basically no restaurants went out of business when they “suddenly had to pay minimum wage.”
And to the few that did go out of business, I don’t have much sympathy. If you’re unable to run your business in such a way they you make money while paying minimum wage to your employees, go find another job because you weren’t very good at running a restaurant.
If you want to protest the owner’s business model then boycott businesses that have tips. But refusing to tip at a tipped business is still giving 100℅ of your money to the owner, supporting their business, and leaving the employees out to dry. It’s not morally righteous, it’s cheap.
Downvoted for being correct I see.
For the downvoters: Any argument against this? He’s clearly right, if you patronize the restaraunt they still get paid and they still don’t have to pay the server shit. “Not tipping” that person didn’t change the culture, it didn’t even hurt the business, the business responsible for this shit to begin with, who got their money. Our only recourse is then to A) Stop eating out all together until the industry collapses and rebuilds tipless, or B) Only go to “no tip” restaraunts if there are any in your area. Any of this half-assed “well the industry needs to just change but I’m not going to do my part to help, I’m just gonna piss off servers and do nothing” bullshit won’t accomplish anything.
Servers want the status quo because they make more money expecting the rest of us to pay 20-30% markup as a tip with the risk of getting stiffed from time to time. Let them demand whatever they feel is a compensatory wage for their time just like the rest of us. They were fine when the scales tipped their way.
IMO servers sold themselves down the river because it allowed them to make more money than back of house staff. Now that everyone is getting tired of this shit it’s the responsibility of the customer to negotiate them a better position? Laughable.
As someone that worked the kitchen and made less than servers while doing as much if not more work, hard pass. Servers are just mad people are getting tired of this shit and they can’t easily double or triple what the person that actually made the food makes.
There’s a difference between “responsibility” and “reality.” Should politicians for instance vote to give themselves term limits and stem their own insider trading? Yes. But if you expect that to happen, “wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first.”
Similarly, should servers fight for higher wages? Yes. But in reality they have no power in this situation, the customers have more. Even if they unionized, you’re arguing here for crossing the picket lines and continuing to support those struck businesses who then make money to hire scabbers, and wondering why nothing is changing. Even if you’re right and all this falls on servers to magically fix, you’re still then part of the problem. You’d arguably be even more of a problem then.
You may not want to make personal sacrifices to change a system that you want changed, but anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice, it just is what it is.
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server. If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers. Instead servers like the status quo because they make more money by culturally shaming people into donating to them.
Quit. Find better employment. Go be a cook, though they don’t usually make as much as servers despite actually making the food. Funny how that works.
Just not by the server though right? It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
I did, I was chased out by people like you not tipping, so you did win on that one, even though I’m the only one who suffered for it, the business is doing just fine. Congrats, if your goal was to make it so that I could barely afford rent and food you did a good job, now get to work on making the poor sap who took my place suffer until he quits, and then the one who’ll take his place, and the one who’ll take his…
Like have you order off a touchscreen? As long as they’re able to find a way to make money off of you they will, and the corporations will just cut out the already thin human element, it’ll be a screen at the table and foodrunners at applebees type shitholes. Most mom and pop places will either just close or become counter service style restaraunts with no servers, like how they run Chipotle. Some will raise prices and try, and hopefully make it, but only time can tell. Of course you’d have fine dining actually pay employees well because they can afford to and their customers can take the price hike and an air of exclusivity to being served by a human rather than a machine.
Well, no, I suppose not. If you want restaraunts to not just all be mcdonalds and chipotle clones, then you can continue patronizing them undermining the efforts of servers who do quit, or would theoretically unionize, and there would be no “consequences” from this as you’re in support of souless corporate food giants and counter service only. If however you did want servers then yes, as the restaraunts source of income you would then share in the responsibility in participating in a boycott as they do in either quitting or striking.
I just think it’s crazy that people believe if Steve owns Steve’s Place and Dan works as a server, hurting Dan to spite Steve while still paying Steve the price he requested does anything lmao. It doesn’t and never will. Dan may quit and Cheryl will take his place, then it’ll just be the counter with Bob behind it handing you your card that says “65,” then “Screen” will take his place and the cook will just start yelling “SIXTY FIVE” and having you grab it, don’t forget forks, they’re next to the vending machine.
Funny you assume I don’t tip. I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit. Which is why I know how much more things cost because of tipping. The problem is instead of it being a bonus for quality of service, its become the expectation to make up for the fact that servers choose not to throw their lot in with the rest of the staff and argue for living wages collectively.
Servers have been privileged with making 2-3x more such that the idea of making what the kitchen staff does is seen as being abused. You just don’t want to accept that the employer abuses you, and instead you abuse the customer with your expectations of having them supplement the poor wage you took expecting the customer will make up for it. Meanwhile the kitchen staff has always been abused but you didn’t mind because you got yours. Maybe work together and demand a better lot?
And here’s the scenario you didn’t care to consider. You quit, they don’t get servers because they don’t pay well, and the business shuts down making room for another that can try again with a better model. Dan can seek an employer that doesn’t treat him as a slave to minimize their costs, and Steve can choose to serve food himself or pay someone appropriately to do the work or close up shop. None of which relies on an expectation of a tip because the wage increase you collectively bargained for is baked into the price. So then when a tip is deserved it can be given, but there is no expectation of 20% for refilling my water at a buffet that I served myself at, or less.
I appreciate the discussion, hope you have a good day bud.
Real life example:
https://www.denverpost.com/2023/06/27/casa-bonita-hiring-jobs-no-tipping-reopening-lakewood-dining/
Backlash against going hourly ($30/hr) for servers and no tips:
https://www.axios.com/local/denver/2023/06/24/casa-bonita-employee-pay-tips-reopening
The thing is that you still can get tips with a decent wage, you just don’t rely on it.
Exactly, additionally isn’t the entire appeal of tipping because you will on average attain more and higher tips by being better at your job? How can people not see that it inherently means your paycheck will fluctuate, it may be higher or even lower than last weeks.
Servers should be paid fairly, and they arent in a lot of places right now but that doesnt mean they should feel entitled to x percentage of the bill every single time.
Whale drunks, I watched a bar tender at a concert make a killing on tips because most people use a credit card and the payment process gives you only so many options, easy to click options besides no tip. 18-22% tip on top on drinks that cost 3 times more than they should. When I use cash and buy drinks you get a dollar if that from me, less than ,10% tip.
Pretty sure I’ve seen you on every episode of nightmare kitchen