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- cross-posted to:
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Tiba al-Ali’s death has sparked the call for change for violence against women in Iraq.
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This is why religion should be stamped out world wide. Faith always overrides common sense. Any rational human will tell you that killing your own daughter is abhorrent behavior.
That too, but this is more on honor culture.
Mostly this, even if it’s also a thing where religion and culture have intertwined long and deep enough that people unfortunately wouldn’t know where one starts and one ends.
So, let me get this straight. Muslims don’t honor kill because religion? They honor kill because they have a cultural predisposition to honor killing? I mean honestly that sounds kinda gross.
Before you say they aren’t the only ones or something. I had to answer someone else before you. So, they got all the links showing that worldwide Muslims do the heavy lifting on honor killings, and we’re talking Muslims from the Balkans, to the Middle East, to Muslims in America, and Muslims in Europe. We are talking Muslims of every color.
I would think that Muslims in very different geographical areas would have slightly different cultures, but same religion.
I think it is partially entwined as a cultural element, like priests and pedophilia, but I don’t think it is written in any Islamic text that one should kill family members out of dishonor – except maybe apostasy.
I agree. From what I’ve read the Quran actually says it’s pretty bad to kill another Muslim. I’m assuming of course that most of these people have quit the faith. But too many Muslim communities in too many different parts of the world do honor killings, for honor killings to not have spread with Islam.
Which this has been such a popular topic that I started talking about it with a friend offline. His take on it was that “I feel that Islam IS the culture in these communities”. He went on to say that “when you have a religion that reminds you several times a day through prayer that you are this religion. You have to plan your day accordingly. So, the religion becomes the culture. “
Which I mostly agree with.
There is no way to fix stupid. All of the elements needed to go underground are included in the instruction manual for all religions. It only creates further conflicts in future generations. The only way to fix this is to introduce scientific thought and principals at a young age across generations and slowly whittle away at them. If you present a solid target, you’ll never succeed. People must realize on their own that they do not believe in magic and that this applies across all of time in both directions without exception. They need to see things like the cosmological constants are the true signature of the universe. If a god made this place at a minimum she should have written these down to undeniably sign her work. People need to realise, the past had extremely uneducated people, but they still had clever conartists, they still had all the mental health disorders we see now and then far more because of those that get treatment now. When something says X-Y-Z happened and thousands of people saw it, do we have thousands of accounts or one person saying so. Did they write it down right after it happened or decades later. Do their accounts have errors like a school kid cheating on their homework and copying others or are they consistent. Saying “X-Y-Z happened, and ten thousand people saw it” four decades after it happened and after a giant rebellion where most of those people died is nonsense. Some prophet zooming around like they have Dr Who’s Tardis is just as fiction. People were stupid back then. They are not much better now. We were all very stupid as children. It is hard to reverse the stupid things we learned as children. The only way to fix this is to get to these children subtly without alerting the stupid children that are raising them.
I mean, you are absolutely correct. The only people that I know of to be successful at removing religion by force are the Chinese. The Russians tried to do it and failed miserably.
But we should also continue step up the shaming of people and cultures involved in things like child marriage, abuse of women, basically human rights violations.
I also think that we should shine a spotlight on the non-Abrahamic religions as well.
After all, if I started a nonprofit organization called “Save the whales”, and got donations all the time. Had “save the whales” meetings every Tuesday. But then you found out I was taking that money and killing whales. The world would be pretty upset, and rightly so.
Well if you have a religion, and say that you love everyone because that’s what your religion teaches. But then you abuse children, women, minorities, basically the vulnerable people in your community. That’s a huge problem.
So in closing I just want to say that you are correct. People have to realize on their own, but I think that the people involved in these abuses should also be publicly shamed and humiliated.
You call concentration camps and mass death “successful?” I know it’s trendy to hate religion, but promoting actual genocide to do it? Come on.
I mean that’s not how China did it, also I didn’t say I agreed with it. You read way too much into it. As far as Mao’s cultural revolution goes. It was brutal for reasons other than what you listed, and it was successful because it worked.
I just want to make it clear that I don’t endorse genocide. I never said I did. You assumed that’s what I meant for some reason, and you know what happens when you assume?
That’s absolutely how China does it, there are concentration camps in Xinjiang and they are imprisoning Uyghurs for praying. The evidence is stark and there are UN talks with NGOs and many many news reports from survivors. Why would you side with this?
There are now. You are correct, but that’s not how China got rid of religion amongst the Chinese people during the cultural revolution. Which is what I was talking about.
See, Mao followed Stallin’s playbook. You get rid of the smart, the rich, and religious. That makes it easier to pull everyone together under the same banner. They both got rid of the bourgeoisie. They both got rid of intelligentsia. But only China was able to get rid of religion among the Chinese people.
You are correct though that today they use “reeducation camps”. Which is why they haven’t been as successful this time around. As someone else pointed out in this thread. When you use force to take away a religious identity. Stories about, and instructions for going underground are built into the teachings.
Anyway, you are right, but I was talking about the Chinese people proper. The Han Chinese I guess.
I’m not going to waste my time on someone who is an apologist for genocide and concentration camps, just because it happens to people you have a prejudice against.
Edit: and someone with a troll username should have tipped me off that it’s not debating them in good faith. That’s not an ad hominem.
and how would you go about stamping out religion?
I think shedding more light on the atrocities committed by these organizations and individuals would be a good start. I think we should publicly shame these people when they do horrific things. Maybe even protest outside their place of worship.
I think that would be a good start
This is NOT religion. This is stupid culture. There’s a reason every religious leader in Iraq condemned this. This stupid cultural idea existed for thousands of years, long before religion, and religious leaders are the ones actually citing holy books to help put a stop to this. Blame the right people.
Look, there are Christians that believe in polygamy and child marriage as part of their faith. Does that mean all Christians? No.
Likewise, do I think that all Muslims support this behavior? No. But the numbers don’t lie. It is an almost uniquely Muslim phenomenon. It doesn’t matter where the Muslims come from.
But the numbers don’t lie. It is an almost uniquely Muslim phenomenon.
What?? You think muslim people have the lock on killing their own children. I think I just saw a news story weeks ago about a woman in the u.s. that killed her children. I mean americans usually tend towards just killing a bunch of other people’s kids, but whatever. Keep thinking religion is the bad guy here.
We weren’t talking about just killing children. We were talking about honor killings. Please stay on point here.
And you have no way of indicating whether or not someone who had killed a child has deemed it in their mind as an honor killing. The point is, you have a lot to learn. Thinking this can just be solved by eliminating religion, well that’s a tall order. Preach on though, and show those wacky muslims how they should act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings_by_region
I’m just going to leave this right here.
And from your link “Honour killings are believed to have originated from tribal customs.” But go ahead with your muslim diatribe.
But the numbers don’t lie. It is an almost uniquely Muslim phenomenon. It doesn’t matter where the Muslims come from.
I would like to see these numbers that show that it doesn’t matter where the Muslims come from.
Be they from Africa, Middle East, or Balkans. It’s a Muslim thing. If you go back far enough in history sure it’s every where, but as it applies to today. It’s an almost uniquely Muslim thing.
No, it’s a middle eastern practice that exited for thousands of years before islam. Even though islam forbids it the cultural practice remains. You seem to be drawing a lazy false conclusion. Mafias pre-date Catholicism but just because the Italian mafia exists in a Catholic-majority area doesn’t make it a catholic practice.
But the practice spread with Islam. That’s the difference. Mafia didn’t spread with Catholicism, but honor killings DID spread with Islam.
No it didn’t. None of the Islamic missionaries included that with any of their teachings, which is why you don’t see Arab-style honor killings in places like Albania or Indonesia.
You keep insisting on something factually incorrect. It’s like claiming Catholicism invented wife beating and taught it to Latin America. It was never once sanctioned by Islamic scholars or leaders throughout 1400 year history.
/c/atheism
This isn’t about religion. Please read the article before making ignorant comments.
Bro honor killings in a Muslim country are closely tied to their religion. I have a very interesting relationship with Islam, and I can tell you with about 90% certainty that this is because of religion.
https://healthresearchfunding.org/18-incredible-honor-killings-america-statistics/
90% of all honor killings in the us have been Muslim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings_by_region
Here is honor killings by region. Guess who does the VAST majority of them world wide.
Technically an honor killing doesn’t have to be religious, but then you have to say that Muslims have a cultural predisposition to honor killings, and honestly that sounds super fucking gross.
But going back to what I was saying earlier. I grew up about as close to the Muslim faith as you can and not be Muslim at all.
it’s the religion of peace, you see
Like all of them, really. I dream of a day when all people realize neither of those bullshitty made up stories even make sense and will stop believing in all of religion.
People like religion because it brings community. It allows people to create a shared knowledge which people have a way to connect and understand how people want to be treated. You honestly could do this with anything. You largely see it in the Linux community now though. Linux is religious like that.
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I don’t want to do anyone any favors, especially people with delusions (mini spoiler: there are no talking snakes, unless you take some drugs).
Aren’t it Christians who are banning abortion everywhere? You may find it very unlike stoning women to death, I think it’s the same thing, just not as severe.
But hey, I believe Christians will get there over time! Or they’ll at least try.
Just like any religion. This has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with extremist zealots who exist in every religion. Even Linux.
This isn’t about religion. Please read the article before making ignorant comments.
Yeah mate countries allowing men to murder women with fuck all consequences as long as it was an “honour killing” has totally got nothing to do with religion - just like how the Americans banning abortion is purely to protect babies and definitely wasn’t motivated by religion!
Strangled in her sleep.
And considered not premeditated and only a 6 month sentence. I don’t know what sort of premeditation theory they have in Iraq but you cannot act in the heat of the moment without any thought when someone is asleep. In the states that is premeditated murder without any doubt.
Edit: To give an idea how low the bar is in the states, I was on a jury that convicted a man of premeditated murder who strangled a woman. At first I was going to vote against it, but after reviewing the ligature I noticed the killer tied it off. That implied a level of thought that pushed into premeditation, because he took the time to realize she might not die if he released the pressure and he wanted to ensure she did.
The father most likely has connections somewhere with the police or up the chain, and was able to get a story crafted. Hopefully after the uproar they will increase the sentence and punish those who collaborated.
I’m sure even Iraq doesn’t allow double jeopardy.
With enough uproar, the government will do whatever to silence it. It wouldn’t be the first time a middle Eastern government responds to protests like that.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Tiba’s death sparked protests across Iraq about its laws regarding so-called “honour killings”, the case highlighting how women are treated in a country where conservative attitudes remain dominant.
When asked about the response of authorities to the killing, Gen Maan said: "Security forces dealt with the case with the highest standards of professionalism and applied the law.
For instance, in Article 41 of Iraq’s penal code the “punishment of a wife by her husband” and “the disciplining by parents… of children under their authority within certain limits” are considered legal rights.
Article 409 meanwhile states: “Any person who surprises his wife in the act of adultery or finds his girlfriend in bed with her lover and kills them immediately or one of them, or assaults one of them so that he or she dies or is left permanently disabled, is punishable by a period of detention not exceeding three years.”
Female rights activist, Dr Leyla Hussein told the BBC: "These killings are often rooted in misogyny and a desire to control women’s bodies and behaviour.
Ala Talabani, head of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan’s bloc in the Iraqi parliament, said: “Women in our societies are hostage to backward customs due to the absence of legal deterrents and government measures, which currently are not commensurate with the size of domestic violence crimes.”
The original article contains 1,046 words, the summary contains 221 words. Saved 79%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Can you tldr your tldr into fewer words
Why are so many of the comments blaming the concept of religion, or the specific religion of Islam… Rather than blaming the dad for being a murderer?
This dude murdered his daughter. He doesn’t get to hide behind an excuse. He doesn’t get to say “religion/culture/whatever made me do it”
Because religion is still the brainwashing machine that set it in motion.
Saying that it’s all because religion and not blaming the father is stupid, but so is ignoring the importance of religion as a control tool.
Because fundamental Islam pretty much encourages violence against women?? Why are you not asking why violence against women is much more prevalent in Middle Eastern countries than almost anywhere else on Earth?
Despite how you’ve framed your comment, “blaming the dad for being a murderer” is the most surface-level analysis of this situation. We need to ask ourselves why did he kill her (as in, what environment needed to exist to make a father think that murder was a solution to whatever problem there was).
Murder is like half of the first page
