I always considered myself a centrist… but it was more about how I definitely believe the government should be involved in certain things/industries (prisons, healthcare, comprehensive social programs that boost up the worst-off in our society so they can actually have opportunities, etc) and not in other things (a “free market” that exists under strong, fair, and reasonable regulations that promote competition, discourage monopolization, and provide consumer and environmental protections, individual liberties like identity and community and sexual orientation, how people raise their kids (within reason, of course), etc)…
I don’t know what the fuck these people actually are. Right-leaning useful idiots who are too lazy to have an actual opinion so they just both-sides everything and get to feel smug about it. It’s easier than reading, I guess?
It sure feels like it comes from a position of privilege where their lives are fine under the status quo so anyone else’s struggle is not their problem.
I mean yeah, here in the US. Overton window’s all fucky over here.
EDIT: I should also probably add that there are probably more nuanced parts of my views that might stick me a little more in the centrist camp, like how the things I mentioned should be implemented, managed, how much reach they should have, whatever. Regardless, I do definitely vibe harder with Social Dems over here than any other ideological stripe.
Shit I label myself a progressive pretty far left as a social democrat myself, which is definitely further left than the mainstream Democratic party who in my view has only marginally shifted center-left in the past few years. Though even in Germany the Social Democratic Party is considered center-left.
Center-left is where I’d primarily place myself, for sure (with the occasional excursion into the center or even center-right, which is why I label myself a “centrist”).
It sucks so badly that there are very real, very present issues that can be debated by sensible people but that debate isn’t happening. Everything has devolved into surface-level culture war horseshit. I think the Right is just mad that they “lost” the culture wars which can be evidenced by who massive corporations - who generally don’t actually give a fuck about social justice - are pandering to. The problem is that they’re just lashing out and taking it out on everyone. Culture war stuff just shuts the conversation down and you never end up going beneath the surface to tackle real topics. You either end up squabbling over petty shit or semantics or you just leave. Nuance and context are just fucking absent, replace by strict black-and-white ideological stances.
I really do believe that conservative thought has a place and function in society. In my eyes, it’s there to temper unchecked change and keep things stable. You will never avoid change outright, but having it happen too quickly or wildly can leave people disillusioned. Unfortunately, if you left it up to some of these people, they’d drag us back to the 1950s… or worse.
Hey man, great comment and there’s a lot I agree with here — for starters, I’ve made the same argument regarding corporations and how they have now began catering to the left in terms of social issues.
I think that conservatism is an inherent part of society that should come based largely (albeit not exclusively) by age. The vast majority of this wealth comes from frankly rich old white fucks. In a functioning, equitable society, their voices would be relatively muted or at least in proportion to their population. But the Boomer and Silent generations were so massive they lopsided society. This made worse by the fact that we continue to elect increasingly older people who are out of touch with modern living and frankly declined in terms of cognitive capacity. But no. Instead, they have massive wealth and megaphones pushing their archaic messages that is even filtering down into younger generations.
So this, combined with the fact that while we have age minimums for representing our country, we don’t have age maximums — both contribute heavily to our current problems and the stranglehold conservatism has had on America. The only reason things have changed remotely is thanks to the internet, honestly.
Right on, I can’t disagree. I’m very much for age limits and possibly term limits to some degree, although I think there are decent arguments for and against the latter. I’m also open to ranked choice voting and it’s cousins, but I need more time to read up about all of that before I can say I have a substantive opinion on the subject.
What you described is exactly the scary lack of ideological balance that I see and am low-key kind of freaked out by. Even if the boomers are starting to decline in number, look at how they were able to whip up just enough of the younger voting-age generations to cause problems. Will that stuff persevere in their absence? I’m under the impression that as time goes on, younger generations tend to hold a more left-leaning streak for longer.
On the other hand, sometimes it almost feels like mainstreamed bigotry and racism and all that trash is kind of gasping it’s last desperate breaths, like it’s ok the cusp of crawling back under rocks and into the shadows. It feels like there’s a lot of thrashing going on in that corner lately. On a societal scale, though, that could take years or even a couple of decades… Plenty of time for another revival to get it back on its feet again.
On the other hand, sometimes it almost feels like mainstreamed bigotry and racism and all that trash is kind of gasping it’s last desperate breaths, like it’s ok the cusp of crawling back under rocks and into the shadows. It feels like there’s a lot of thrashing going on in that corner lately.
Wholly agree as I’ve long said this is the rat backed into a corner and lashing out for the last time — at least, for now. It seems pretty clear that overall the modern far-right conservative ideological movement and its hodgepodge of conspiracy theories and anti/pseudoscience roots, embrace of unregulated capitalism, etc. — is near over. This is the make-or-break for them because they know they’re losing, hard.
Centrism being villified in America is really weird, as that is explicitly championing extremism over moderation.
Leaping so hard onto one side that you cannot tolerate anyone’s toe out of line, the party line must be upheld at all costs, is exactly the same kind of extremist shit we go after the right for. Just be better. It’s easy to get caught up into the “us vs them”, “black vs white”, “red vs blue” thing, but it’s really not that simple.
The example above is a strawman. I can do it too. One side says “kill all minorities”, and the other side says “all minorities should become the new upper class of society.” Neither side is actually pushing for either of those things, and we’ve turned real issues into disconnected make believe.
You’re simplifying the problem to the point where you don’t even have to think about it or consider a single argument. It’s much easier if you make up some extremist shit and then say anything and everything is justified in opposition of that extreme.
They put an incredible amount of effort into creating excuses for not having to take a stance, much more than people who are actually taking stances put into explaining their stances.
“The allies were too aggressive against the Nazis it really put me off”
This is what all these bullshit arguments sound like to me.
You have one side wanting to violate the humans rights and privacy of a marginalized group. The other side either wants to help this group or at bare minimum ignore them and let them live peacefully. One of these is aggressive. The other is just basic fucking decency.
Not really. We’re talking about a marginalized group having their rights violated. It’s not my fault the most famous modern example of this that happened less than a century ago is Nazi Germany.
Sorry, when you have GOP politicians and mouthpieces, PROMINENT ones at that, stating that their goal is the “eradication” of transgenderism as a concept, it gets a LOT easier to see where we would make a comparison to the Holocaust.
The fact that you think it’s centrism or extremism and nothing in between shows how little you should be speaking and how much you should be listening.
Yep, you’re right. There’s clearly no difference in terms of proximity to reality between climate change deniers and the consensus of scientists. .
There’s clearly no difference between those responsible for major political violence and those with considerably less. Clearly impossible to use math to tally the difference. Amirite?
Clearly, believing in democracy versus overthrowing fair elections are also equidistant to truth and sanity.
Clearly no difference either between one wing espousing bleach and ivermectin and anti-vaxx hysteria while the other side has the vast majority of consensus of physicians and scientists on their side. Golly. This is tough!
Why do you only pick the extreme right and not the extreme left in your examples? Radical communists are also all about overthrowing the government. I’m not saying that all communists are radical, but they exist. Extremists from all sides are the minority I’d say.
Because 76 million people aren’t voting for an ultra-leftist. But they’re voting for an ultra right-wing nutjob.
Because you can’t even fill your fingers of communist driven politically motivated homicides on one hand but I’d lose boredom counting the number of right-wing extremist acts of politically-motivated homicides.
Because, clearly, the right-wing wing extreme is the fat greater threat. That you even propose this speaks to the very sensationalist arguments of McCarthyism itself, peddled by none other but right-wing extremists.
It is thus a blatant false equivalence fallacy, and right-wing extremism is causing overwhelmingly more damage to this country than any other group.
Ah, so you’re talking about the 2016 elections. In that case fair enough, I assumed you were talking about the political spectrum in general. I agree with you that right-wing extremism is very threatening. I also got sucked into the echo chamber when I wanted to learn more about Covid when it started, and it influenced me so much that I remained in there until about half a year ago. That stuff didn’t do my brain well in retrospect.
Now that I’m out of it I learned that the whole reason the echo chamber exists is because of an extreme fear of change, to the point where it becomes dangerous. Fear of “wokeness”, fear of an elite group trying to take over the world and trying to brainwash everyone with their perverted transhumanist ideologies, fear of other people that have been manipulated by this elitist group. These examples are not what I believe now, but I did very recently.
I’ve also learnt that completely dismissing them from the outside only leads them deeper into the echo chamber where they find comfort, as I’ve experienced first hand. It’s a tricky issue, but I think a big part of solving it is by not dismissing them straight up, as they have the idea that everyone is against them already.
This seems to suggest that the default position on rights is to deny them unless the marginalized group makes a convincing enough case for acceptance, politely. This, incidentally, is what put me off the term “acceptance” as a positive thing. As someone whose right to exist isn’t questioned daily, it shouldn’t be my right to decide whom to accept or “tolerate” (ew) but my moral duty to celebrate, welcome, and build up. The notion of a group being able to sit undisturbed while marginalized people make arguments for their rights, but never in a way that offend or discomfort me, is … bad.
I agree in theory, but in real life, there are some pretty heinous marginalized groups out there. I don’t think LGBT should be counted as some of them, but everyone agrees that there are SOME groups that absolutely should have to prove that they deserve certain rights before those rights can be extended. That’s what laws are.
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I always considered myself a centrist… but it was more about how I definitely believe the government should be involved in certain things/industries (prisons, healthcare, comprehensive social programs that boost up the worst-off in our society so they can actually have opportunities, etc) and not in other things (a “free market” that exists under strong, fair, and reasonable regulations that promote competition, discourage monopolization, and provide consumer and environmental protections, individual liberties like identity and community and sexual orientation, how people raise their kids (within reason, of course), etc)…
I don’t know what the fuck these people actually are. Right-leaning useful idiots who are too lazy to have an actual opinion so they just both-sides everything and get to feel smug about it. It’s easier than reading, I guess?
It sure feels like it comes from a position of privilege where their lives are fine under the status quo so anyone else’s struggle is not their problem.
Based on what you say here, you’re more left and most closely align as a Social Democrat.
I mean yeah, here in the US. Overton window’s all fucky over here.
EDIT: I should also probably add that there are probably more nuanced parts of my views that might stick me a little more in the centrist camp, like how the things I mentioned should be implemented, managed, how much reach they should have, whatever. Regardless, I do definitely vibe harder with Social Dems over here than any other ideological stripe.
Shit I label myself a progressive pretty far left as a social democrat myself, which is definitely further left than the mainstream Democratic party who in my view has only marginally shifted center-left in the past few years. Though even in Germany the Social Democratic Party is considered center-left.
Center-left is where I’d primarily place myself, for sure (with the occasional excursion into the center or even center-right, which is why I label myself a “centrist”).
It sucks so badly that there are very real, very present issues that can be debated by sensible people but that debate isn’t happening. Everything has devolved into surface-level culture war horseshit. I think the Right is just mad that they “lost” the culture wars which can be evidenced by who massive corporations - who generally don’t actually give a fuck about social justice - are pandering to. The problem is that they’re just lashing out and taking it out on everyone. Culture war stuff just shuts the conversation down and you never end up going beneath the surface to tackle real topics. You either end up squabbling over petty shit or semantics or you just leave. Nuance and context are just fucking absent, replace by strict black-and-white ideological stances.
I really do believe that conservative thought has a place and function in society. In my eyes, it’s there to temper unchecked change and keep things stable. You will never avoid change outright, but having it happen too quickly or wildly can leave people disillusioned. Unfortunately, if you left it up to some of these people, they’d drag us back to the 1950s… or worse.
Hey man, great comment and there’s a lot I agree with here — for starters, I’ve made the same argument regarding corporations and how they have now began catering to the left in terms of social issues.
I think that conservatism is an inherent part of society that should come based largely (albeit not exclusively) by age. The vast majority of this wealth comes from frankly rich old white fucks. In a functioning, equitable society, their voices would be relatively muted or at least in proportion to their population. But the Boomer and Silent generations were so massive they lopsided society. This made worse by the fact that we continue to elect increasingly older people who are out of touch with modern living and frankly declined in terms of cognitive capacity. But no. Instead, they have massive wealth and megaphones pushing their archaic messages that is even filtering down into younger generations.
So this, combined with the fact that while we have age minimums for representing our country, we don’t have age maximums — both contribute heavily to our current problems and the stranglehold conservatism has had on America. The only reason things have changed remotely is thanks to the internet, honestly.
Right on, I can’t disagree. I’m very much for age limits and possibly term limits to some degree, although I think there are decent arguments for and against the latter. I’m also open to ranked choice voting and it’s cousins, but I need more time to read up about all of that before I can say I have a substantive opinion on the subject.
What you described is exactly the scary lack of ideological balance that I see and am low-key kind of freaked out by. Even if the boomers are starting to decline in number, look at how they were able to whip up just enough of the younger voting-age generations to cause problems. Will that stuff persevere in their absence? I’m under the impression that as time goes on, younger generations tend to hold a more left-leaning streak for longer.
On the other hand, sometimes it almost feels like mainstreamed bigotry and racism and all that trash is kind of gasping it’s last desperate breaths, like it’s ok the cusp of crawling back under rocks and into the shadows. It feels like there’s a lot of thrashing going on in that corner lately. On a societal scale, though, that could take years or even a couple of decades… Plenty of time for another revival to get it back on its feet again.
Wholly agree as I’ve long said this is the rat backed into a corner and lashing out for the last time — at least, for now. It seems pretty clear that overall the modern far-right conservative ideological movement and its hodgepodge of conspiracy theories and anti/pseudoscience roots, embrace of unregulated capitalism, etc. — is near over. This is the make-or-break for them because they know they’re losing, hard.
Centrism being villified in America is really weird, as that is explicitly championing extremism over moderation.
Leaping so hard onto one side that you cannot tolerate anyone’s toe out of line, the party line must be upheld at all costs, is exactly the same kind of extremist shit we go after the right for. Just be better. It’s easy to get caught up into the “us vs them”, “black vs white”, “red vs blue” thing, but it’s really not that simple.
The example above is a strawman. I can do it too. One side says “kill all minorities”, and the other side says “all minorities should become the new upper class of society.” Neither side is actually pushing for either of those things, and we’ve turned real issues into disconnected make believe.
You’re simplifying the problem to the point where you don’t even have to think about it or consider a single argument. It’s much easier if you make up some extremist shit and then say anything and everything is justified in opposition of that extreme.
Also when a minority on one side says extremist stuff that shouldn’t be used as a blanket opinion for everyone not on your side.
When the center lies between two economic right wing parties. As it does in the united States. It would be weirder of it wasn’t. It’s a false center.
When the status quo is terrible, extremism is the only valid path.
They put an incredible amount of effort into creating excuses for not having to take a stance, much more than people who are actually taking stances put into explaining their stances.
It’s quite amazing, really came out of the woodwork and completely missed the point of the meme
Is this rant of yours supposed to convince centrists to transit to extreme wings of spectrum?
In what way is the “left” in the posted meme an extreme?
In case of this meme - in the way of aggressiveness.
“The allies were too aggressive against the Nazis it really put me off”
This is what all these bullshit arguments sound like to me.
You have one side wanting to violate the humans rights and privacy of a marginalized group. The other side either wants to help this group or at bare minimum ignore them and let them live peacefully. One of these is aggressive. The other is just basic fucking decency.
Here we are again with the Godwin law :)
Not really. We’re talking about a marginalized group having their rights violated. It’s not my fault the most famous modern example of this that happened less than a century ago is Nazi Germany.
But conservatives aren’t “Nazi Germany” and trans aren’t Jews in Dachau.
That comparison of yours was bad taste, to say the least.
Now imagine if the Nazis were never able to get that far because the rest of the citizens started fighting for the Jews?
That’s how it’s similar. No trans people aren’t taking trains yet
Sorry, when you have GOP politicians and mouthpieces, PROMINENT ones at that, stating that their goal is the “eradication” of transgenderism as a concept, it gets a LOT easier to see where we would make a comparison to the Holocaust.
Trans are some of the first people the Nazis went after. History rhymes, it turns out.
The fact that you think it’s centrism or extremism and nothing in between shows how little you should be speaking and how much you should be listening.
Dividing political spectrum by left, central and right parts is pretty common approach.
Also, this post is about particular meme, which is comparing centrism and extremities.
The American left is globally considered to be on the right, so your “extreme wing” argument is comparing the far right to the middle right.
The fallacy you make here is believing the wings are equidistant from truth.
“Truth”? It’s society, not physics. There’s no universal casted in iron “truth”. There’re points of view.
Yep, you’re right. There’s clearly no difference in terms of proximity to reality between climate change deniers and the consensus of scientists. .
There’s clearly no difference between those responsible for major political violence and those with considerably less. Clearly impossible to use math to tally the difference. Amirite?
Clearly, believing in democracy versus overthrowing fair elections are also equidistant to truth and sanity.
Clearly no difference either between one wing espousing bleach and ivermectin and anti-vaxx hysteria while the other side has the vast majority of consensus of physicians and scientists on their side. Golly. This is tough!
/s
Why do you only pick the extreme right and not the extreme left in your examples? Radical communists are also all about overthrowing the government. I’m not saying that all communists are radical, but they exist. Extremists from all sides are the minority I’d say.
Because 76 million people aren’t voting for an ultra-leftist. But they’re voting for an ultra right-wing nutjob.
Because you can’t even fill your fingers of communist driven politically motivated homicides on one hand but I’d lose boredom counting the number of right-wing extremist acts of politically-motivated homicides.
Because, clearly, the right-wing wing extreme is the fat greater threat. That you even propose this speaks to the very sensationalist arguments of McCarthyism itself, peddled by none other but right-wing extremists.
It is thus a blatant false equivalence fallacy, and right-wing extremism is causing overwhelmingly more damage to this country than any other group.
Ah, so you’re talking about the 2016 elections. In that case fair enough, I assumed you were talking about the political spectrum in general. I agree with you that right-wing extremism is very threatening. I also got sucked into the echo chamber when I wanted to learn more about Covid when it started, and it influenced me so much that I remained in there until about half a year ago. That stuff didn’t do my brain well in retrospect.
Now that I’m out of it I learned that the whole reason the echo chamber exists is because of an extreme fear of change, to the point where it becomes dangerous. Fear of “wokeness”, fear of an elite group trying to take over the world and trying to brainwash everyone with their perverted transhumanist ideologies, fear of other people that have been manipulated by this elitist group. These examples are not what I believe now, but I did very recently.
I’ve also learnt that completely dismissing them from the outside only leads them deeper into the echo chamber where they find comfort, as I’ve experienced first hand. It’s a tricky issue, but I think a big part of solving it is by not dismissing them straight up, as they have the idea that everyone is against them already.
These are weak manipulations. Don’t do that.
On the contrary, these dismantle your argument completely. Don’t deflect.
… if that will keep you from aggression - sure.
I believe that water boils at 12°C at normal room pressure
You somehow missed first part of the sentence.
It’s not their responsibility to educate centrists.
Such a toxic approach isn’t productive. Don’t make an enemy from one, who are not. Inform them, if you want a support. And not in an aggressive way.
“Hey I want the right to exist peacefully”
“Ehhhhh idk I need more information on why you think you deserve that”
😐
This seems to suggest that the default position on rights is to deny them unless the marginalized group makes a convincing enough case for acceptance, politely. This, incidentally, is what put me off the term “acceptance” as a positive thing. As someone whose right to exist isn’t questioned daily, it shouldn’t be my right to decide whom to accept or “tolerate” (ew) but my moral duty to celebrate, welcome, and build up. The notion of a group being able to sit undisturbed while marginalized people make arguments for their rights, but never in a way that offend or discomfort me, is … bad.
I agree in theory, but in real life, there are some pretty heinous marginalized groups out there. I don’t think LGBT should be counted as some of them, but everyone agrees that there are SOME groups that absolutely should have to prove that they deserve certain rights before those rights can be extended. That’s what laws are.
And to attack centrists is better?
If someone calling you an asshole for not supporting someone’s right to exist is an attack then yes go fuck yourself with a brick.
Wow, that really made me a supporter of your position.
As though you were ever going to be.
What is the “centrist” position between murdering people who undeniably exist vs. not murdering them?
Meme from the post doesn’t put the point there, don’t exaggerate, please.