I still don’t understand why people are recently switching away from Firefox. The telemetry thing seems totally overblown. The ads are absolutely minimal. It’s great software.
It’s been a steady exodus since less than a year ago when they removed the bit from their TOS about never selling your personal data and promising to protect your privacy.
I believe the recent surge has been the forced integration of AI features which are on by default (arguments were made to at least make them opt-in and not opt-out). Such features compromise privacy and security.
They’re actively doing everything they can to monitize the consumer and going against their supposed stance as the ‘privacy focused’ browser.
Essentially, they claim to still not be monetizing the consumer. I can find no reporting claiming that they have monetized any consumer, and it’s been almost a year.
You’re right, I probably should have phrased that as ‘they appear to be doing everything they can to monetize the consumer…’
Actions speak louder than words and the action of modifying their TOU to remove the following really struck a nerve:
“Does Firefox sell your personal data?
Nope. Never have, never will. And we protect you from many of the advertisers who do. Firefox products are designed to protect your privacy. That’s a promise.”
Removing this statement feels motivated by more than the excuses they’re giving - it feels like a betrayal. Subsequently shoe-horning in AI features doesn’t help reverse this sentiment, it only emboldens it.
To each their own, but Mozilla clearly doesn’t care about being ‘the privacy focused browser’ any longer or they wouldn’t be taking their current actions.
I do not understand it either; my best guess is that some law intern messed up real bad, and convinced somebody it was a risky thing to leave written down.
But yes, I’m really really interested in if they do stop being a private browser. As you say, actions speak louder than words, and a TOU always felt like a pile of words to me.
A few things come to mind… for me the main reasons are:
The new Mozilla CEO pushes AI into Firefox, and for now it seems that it will be an Opt-out procedure to get rid of it. As a software developer with a bit of technical knowledge about ML and LLMs I have a deep mistrust against C-Level types blabbering on about AI as our lord and savior.
Mozilla is funded heavily by Google. Almost 85% of Mozilla’s funds come from Search engine deals with Google. Google itself is one of the top 3 megacorps when it comes to surveillance capitalism, erosion of privacy and enshittification. You guessed it, that’s not very trustworthy to me either.
There are more reasons, but I’m not a fucking wikipedia. Look it up if you really want to know.
Also I think it is good to have a choice, especially in the browser market where Chrome, Edge (MS-flavoured Chrome) and Firefox are the only viable mainstream choices for most people. If you’re happy with Firefox, good for you. But there are valid reasons not to be.
So far it’s just a tiny button in the bottom left corner that can be removed with two clicks. If it escalates then maybe I will worry.
That’s fair but at the same time, at least it’s a funded OSS project?
I can agree that Firefox isn’t always taking the perfectly moral stance on every issue, but I just don’t yet see a deal breaker materializing in the browser itself.
You’ll always find loud techies who will screech over the smallest shit. The privacy media outlets are basically windows uac and print any nothing burger to a mostly tech illiterate crowd.
Ask the average person what they think privacy is and what they are concerned about. It won’t match up with “I think Alexa is spying on me” shit you see in forums every day.
FF is losing users because it genuinely not as good as MSEdge/Chrome. SSO, passwords, and identity management as a whole is top notch.
Most people can’t even begin to realize what a lack of privacy really means for them. The amount of data collected on individuals by big tech is staggering beyond what a normal human is able to process or understand. So their peabrains think it’s an overblown reaction. Just like climate change, if they don’t see it, it does not exist.
However, if you look at the US right now, it becomes apparent what happens if this data lands in the wrong hands. People who previously thought “i have nothing to hide so privacy does not concern me” now find out what it means when they are being targeted, threatened, silenced, deported, killed based on the very data they had no problem giving away, on Tik Tok, Facebook, Instagram, X, WhatsApp, in google searches, when buying stuff on amazon, on their phone in the form of location data, etc etc.
TLDR you might be well advised to listen to those techies because they know what they are talking about.
I’ve found that’s the opinion of a small but vocal techie crowd. In my experience most don’t care about it, they care more about features. And when they do care about data it’s not about Google assigning an ad id pool to them, even with how accurate they are. It’s more about direct selling and data brokers and how the government obtains data via warrants because of the whole fashi shit. Your and this communities opinions are not representative of the technology community at all in my experiences 🤷♂️
Problem is, that’s not an opinion but reality. The mass collection, analysis and sale of data points IS happening and the consequences are severe. Ignoring it or talking it down will not make it go away. Let me give you a few examples on how your data is used:
Data brokers are selling this data to anyone who pays.
Price gouging: Your location data and your shopping habits are used to determine if you are living in a wealthy neighborhood or if you are shopping expensive things. Based on that data you pay more when shopping online
Your entire phone contacts which you willingly gave away to a messenger app might have been leaked and/or sold. Everyone who pays can now identify who you have contact with or had contact in the past. If one of them is on the government’s radar for whatever reason, so are you now. Expect visitors.
Your period tracking app shows that you’re late / location data shows you went to an abortion clinic in another US state. Expect visitors.
Your fancy ring security camera is being accessed without your consent. Who is that brown-skinned person at your doorstep every few days? Might be an illegal immigrant. Expect visitors.
One of the games on your phone picks up your live location data and sells it. You might have wondered why the game needs location permission when installing it but after all, how bad can it be…
Insurances, medical or otherwise buy your data to determine if they want to insure you at all and how much it will cost you. Did you not read your fitness tracker’s TOS?
Criminals can use your data for spear phishing/spam. This works like a regular phishing attack, but is customized to you personally to fit to what they know about you.
You have googled a specific search term out of curiosity. This triggered a monitoring software and is now reported to the authorities.
I could go on, but I guess you get the picture. All this shit is happening already. Its about time to take it seriously.
Completely agree. The telemetry is opt-in (personally I opt in as a matter of principle). As for the coming AI features, whether we like it or not these are soon going to be non-optional in any browser which wants to be used by non-techies. Without the normie users, and without the work done by the Mozilla security team, there is no Firefox. I get why people want to use the downstream forks, but we need to get serious. For Waterfox and Librefox to exist, Firefox needs to survive and thrive.
whether we like it or not these are soon going to be non-optional in any browser
That remains to be seen. People are so tired of that overhyped AI crap already, and even the normies begin to understand that this is a shitshow which will make their lives worse. Don’t underestimate the power of a frustrated userbase. Things are not set in stone. History is full of huge corporations which failed due to their own arrogance and boneheadedness.
What kind of reaction did you expect? “Nobody will buy these “cars”, what’s wrong with a horse and buggy?” - You’re implying that people who are criticizing AI or having bad experiences with it are just technology-averse and backwards. That’s an insult in itself. Sorry about calling you dense though, that was unnecessary.
I still don’t understand why people are recently switching away from Firefox. The telemetry thing seems totally overblown. The ads are absolutely minimal. It’s great software.
It’s been a steady exodus since less than a year ago when they removed the bit from their TOS about never selling your personal data and promising to protect your privacy.
I believe the recent surge has been the forced integration of AI features which are on by default (arguments were made to at least make them opt-in and not opt-out). Such features compromise privacy and security.
They’re actively doing everything they can to monitize the consumer and going against their supposed stance as the ‘privacy focused’ browser.
Noting their blog response: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/
Essentially, they claim to still not be monetizing the consumer. I can find no reporting claiming that they have monetized any consumer, and it’s been almost a year.
You’re right, I probably should have phrased that as ‘they appear to be doing everything they can to monetize the consumer…’
Actions speak louder than words and the action of modifying their TOU to remove the following really struck a nerve:
“Does Firefox sell your personal data? Nope. Never have, never will. And we protect you from many of the advertisers who do. Firefox products are designed to protect your privacy. That’s a promise.”
Removing this statement feels motivated by more than the excuses they’re giving - it feels like a betrayal. Subsequently shoe-horning in AI features doesn’t help reverse this sentiment, it only emboldens it.
To each their own, but Mozilla clearly doesn’t care about being ‘the privacy focused browser’ any longer or they wouldn’t be taking their current actions.
I do not understand it either; my best guess is that some law intern messed up real bad, and convinced somebody it was a risky thing to leave written down.
But yes, I’m really really interested in if they do stop being a private browser. As you say, actions speak louder than words, and a TOU always felt like a pile of words to me.
A few things come to mind… for me the main reasons are:
Also I think it is good to have a choice, especially in the browser market where Chrome, Edge (MS-flavoured Chrome) and Firefox are the only viable mainstream choices for most people. If you’re happy with Firefox, good for you. But there are valid reasons not to be.
I can agree that Firefox isn’t always taking the perfectly moral stance on every issue, but I just don’t yet see a deal breaker materializing in the browser itself.
I just like the added privacy that privacy focused browsers…focus on. Not that deep really.
You’ll always find loud techies who will screech over the smallest shit. The privacy media outlets are basically windows uac and print any nothing burger to a mostly tech illiterate crowd.
Ask the average person what they think privacy is and what they are concerned about. It won’t match up with “I think Alexa is spying on me” shit you see in forums every day.
FF is losing users because it genuinely not as good as MSEdge/Chrome. SSO, passwords, and identity management as a whole is top notch.
Most people can’t even begin to realize what a lack of privacy really means for them. The amount of data collected on individuals by big tech is staggering beyond what a normal human is able to process or understand. So their peabrains think it’s an overblown reaction. Just like climate change, if they don’t see it, it does not exist. However, if you look at the US right now, it becomes apparent what happens if this data lands in the wrong hands. People who previously thought “i have nothing to hide so privacy does not concern me” now find out what it means when they are being targeted, threatened, silenced, deported, killed based on the very data they had no problem giving away, on Tik Tok, Facebook, Instagram, X, WhatsApp, in google searches, when buying stuff on amazon, on their phone in the form of location data, etc etc.
TLDR you might be well advised to listen to those techies because they know what they are talking about.
I’ve found that’s the opinion of a small but vocal techie crowd. In my experience most don’t care about it, they care more about features. And when they do care about data it’s not about Google assigning an ad id pool to them, even with how accurate they are. It’s more about direct selling and data brokers and how the government obtains data via warrants because of the whole fashi shit. Your and this communities opinions are not representative of the technology community at all in my experiences 🤷♂️
Problem is, that’s not an opinion but reality. The mass collection, analysis and sale of data points IS happening and the consequences are severe. Ignoring it or talking it down will not make it go away. Let me give you a few examples on how your data is used:
Data brokers are selling this data to anyone who pays.
Price gouging: Your location data and your shopping habits are used to determine if you are living in a wealthy neighborhood or if you are shopping expensive things. Based on that data you pay more when shopping online
Your entire phone contacts which you willingly gave away to a messenger app might have been leaked and/or sold. Everyone who pays can now identify who you have contact with or had contact in the past. If one of them is on the government’s radar for whatever reason, so are you now. Expect visitors.
Your period tracking app shows that you’re late / location data shows you went to an abortion clinic in another US state. Expect visitors.
Your fancy ring security camera is being accessed without your consent. Who is that brown-skinned person at your doorstep every few days? Might be an illegal immigrant. Expect visitors.
One of the games on your phone picks up your live location data and sells it. You might have wondered why the game needs location permission when installing it but after all, how bad can it be…
Insurances, medical or otherwise buy your data to determine if they want to insure you at all and how much it will cost you. Did you not read your fitness tracker’s TOS?
Criminals can use your data for spear phishing/spam. This works like a regular phishing attack, but is customized to you personally to fit to what they know about you.
You have googled a specific search term out of curiosity. This triggered a monitoring software and is now reported to the authorities.
I could go on, but I guess you get the picture. All this shit is happening already. Its about time to take it seriously.
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Completely agree. The telemetry is opt-in (personally I opt in as a matter of principle). As for the coming AI features, whether we like it or not these are soon going to be non-optional in any browser which wants to be used by non-techies. Without the normie users, and without the work done by the Mozilla security team, there is no Firefox. I get why people want to use the downstream forks, but we need to get serious. For Waterfox and Librefox to exist, Firefox needs to survive and thrive.
That remains to be seen. People are so tired of that overhyped AI crap already, and even the normies begin to understand that this is a shitshow which will make their lives worse. Don’t underestimate the power of a frustrated userbase. Things are not set in stone. History is full of huge corporations which failed due to their own arrogance and boneheadedness.
Nobody will buy these “cars”, what’s wrong with a horse and buggy? History can support either side of this debate.
That’s not what I said. Maybe ask chatGPT to give you a summary if you’re too dense.
This kind of comment is why social media has such a deservedly bad reputation.
What kind of reaction did you expect? “Nobody will buy these “cars”, what’s wrong with a horse and buggy?” - You’re implying that people who are criticizing AI or having bad experiences with it are just technology-averse and backwards. That’s an insult in itself. Sorry about calling you dense though, that was unnecessary.